What Would an Ideal Trade Deadline Look Like for The Twins?

[Kevinm]

I think if the twins trade Sano, the same thing would happen as with David Ortiz years ago.  Reaching his full potential with another team

[In My La Z boy]

Good ideas that don't seem too painful. Angels I agree may be a partner. What a messed up organization they are. Of all the prospects discussed to be potentially moved, I disagree on trading Miranda for anyone. He is our future Jose Ramirez. I am more inclined to move anyone else to make sure this kid plays everyday. He is Arraez with POWER. 

[Steven Buhr]

Interesting enough to look into deeper. 

I think you're probably going to need to give up quite a bit more to get Syndergaard. Think something like Julien or Celestino, in addition to what you proposed.

Bard for Povich sounds about right. Could see something like that happening (though Povich has not looked as great lately as he had been).

I think you're being way too generous for Moore. Julien, alone, is probably too much for Moore, imo.

I applaud trying to get anything out of Sano, but that's going to be tough to do. Sano's value is so far below "zero" that they're stuck with him until they're ready to simply DFA him. I suspect they'll see if he can do something... anything... to resurrect his value.

And, yeah, one of those catchers for a PTBNL makes a lot of sense. 

I think the Twins should be aiming higher than you're inclined to believe, but if you're looking at Syndergaard/Hill types, I'd be more intrigued by a lefty like Blake Snell. Bad start, but trending a little better the past month.

[Doctor Gast]

I respect your opinion, Nick but I'm in the other boat. We have the opportunity of having Correa for this season we have to go for it all. We have a great core (with the best CF & SS) we just need to fill our holes, ATL was in a worse position than us last season and won it all. You just have to have some faith. Bard would be a good cheap choice and  Mahle would not be that expensive. We also need an upgrade at catcher not only for this year but for the future, We have redundant players  that could be traded that wouldn't  effect our future that much if any. And would relieve the coming 40 man crunch.

The catchers that you mentioned don't really move the needle for me. I wouldn't want another SD reject. I'm not too certain about Marcus Stroman but if you want a cheap option a Contreras/ Robertson/ Stroman trade the Cubs could probably go for and they might even go with Sano. Or go with just Contreras/ Robertson, there we take care of  our main need (complimentary closer) and an upgrade at catcher (we could try to extend him)

[umterp23]

1 hour ago, Kevinm said:

I think if the twins trade Sano, the same thing would happen as with David Ortiz years ago.  Reaching his full potential with another team

So batting .210 with 25 HRs, 45 RBI's and 170 K's... trade away my provisional friend, trade away.... tongue and cheek sarcasm

[bean5302]

2 hours ago, cheeseheadgophfan said:

Winder has been shut down.....sent back for rehab work.  No one is going to trade for him right now.

You can't give up Miranda....he's been our most productive hitter/run producer over the last month.  He's a cornerstone. I don't know if Larnach holds value while injured (hernia surgery shouldn't be a huge red flag).  

If Arraez can play a serviceable 2B, why isn't Polanco a trade chip?  Will it screw with team chemistry too much?  

 

 

I think it's safe to call Winder's career as a starter to be likely over right now.

[Mike Sixel]

I don't share the optimism that winder, alcala, or Maeda or paddock will be healthy next year.... But I guess it's possible. 

As for the OP, I don't get the Syndergard desire at all. I'm good with the rest.

[nicksaviking]

32 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

I don't share the optimism that winder, alcala, or Maeda or paddock will be healthy next year.... But I guess it's possible. 

As for the OP, I don't get the Syndergard desire at all. I'm good with the rest.

Syndergaard isn't high on my list, but making sure Bundy and Smeltzer don't start another game is. To do that, the Twins will need two starters, presumably the second one won't be terribly exciting.

[terrydactyls]

2 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

So the same team minus Correa and a few other vets and the hope (fingers crossed) the Twins go out and do something they have never done before and are going to do it Twice (Sign a high end starting pitcher)?

Free Agents next year, Price, Sale, Rodon, Syndergaard, Morton, Wainwright, Eovaldi, Kersahw, Greinke, Nola, Severino, Manaea, Gibson, Bassitt and Musgrove are the top guys available.

I can assume we can count out Price, Morton, Wainwright, Greinke, Gibson and Kershaw from the list.

That leaves Sale, Rodon, Syndergaard, Eovaldi, Nola, Severino, Manaea, Bassitt and Musgrove.

Sale and Bassitt are both over 33, so probably can assume if they were to be brought in, it would be for a 1 or 2 contract, maybe 3, but do we really see the Twins pay 20 million a year for these two.

Are Syndergaard, Eovaldi and Manaea top end pitchers?

Down to Rodon, Nola, Severino and Musgrove. (and the Twins are going to outbid everybody for not just 1 of those guys but 2 of them?, sorry I don't see that happening)

Then they are going to go out and get a bat for the bench because there is no room for a starter and two expensive relief pitchers. Man I wish I could live in a world where I would believe those things could happen.

In my world they try to get Correa back (or sign Swanson to a deal similiar to what they did with Correa if he doesn't have the interest he wants), maybe get Wilson Contreras, bring in a relief pitcher like a Joe Smith and sign a starting pitcher like Jose Quintana or something like that.

Also the team you envision is no more a contender then the team they have this year is.

 

 

You have an opinion.  I have an opinion.  I like mine.  You like yours.  That does not mean either of us are wrong.  We just have different opinions.  That's why I refrain from saying things like "the team you envision is no more a contender then the team they have this year is".  That sounds like a statement of fact when in reality it is just someone's opinion.

[MTV]

Twins/Red Sox: Twins get SP Nathan Eovaldi and UT Kike Hernandez for RF Max Kepler, 1B Miguel Sano, RHP Blayne Enlow #17p. Twins get 2 guys that have been very dominant in the postseason and off Miguel Sano, Red Sox get pieces that will benefit them sooner than later. Wallner looks about major-league ready and can put faith into him starting next year. 

Twins/Reds: Twins get OF Tyler Naquin for SP Chris Archer, OF Jake Cave, and RHP Sean Mooney #30p. Twins get a decent RF in the absence of Kepler and shave off Chris Archer. 

Twins/Marlins: Twins get RP Anthony Bass and C Jacob Stallings for 1B Aaron Sabato #13p, RHP Cole Sands #14p and C Caleb Hamilton. Twins get a strong high-end reliever and a quality backup catcher for prospects of mediocre interest.

Twins/Diamondbacks: Twins get SP Merrill Kelly for OF Misael Urbina #9p and RHP Casey Legumina #25p. Kelly honestly sounds like a twins starter and would strengthen the rotation in comparison to Archer. Urbina has upside but is struggling.

Twins/Rockies: Twins get RP Daniel Bard for SS Keoni Cavaco #19p and RP Joe Smith. I honestly don’t know what the Rockies want and hope this would be enough.

Total Off-season:

SP Nathan Eovaldi, SP Merrill Kelly, RP Anthony Bass, RP Daniel Bard, OF Tyler Naquin, U Kike Hernandez, C Jacob Stallings

For:

RF Max Kepler, 1B Miguel Sano, SP Chris Archer, RP Joe Smith, C Caleb Hamilton, OF Jake Cave, Misael Urbina #9p, Aaron Sabato #13p, Cole Sands #14p, Blayne Enlow #17p, Keoni Cavaco #19p, Casey Legumina #25p, Sean Mooney #30p.
 

Outcome: Twins still retain all highly-touted players and look good enough for the postseason.

[USAFChief]

32 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Syndergaard isn't high on my list, but making sure Bundy and Smeltzer don't start another game is. To do that, the Twins will need two starters, presumably the second one won't be terribly exciting.

I'd say getting Archer out of the rotation is a higher priority than Bundy.

And I'd take Smeltzer over Archer too.

Since this is the "ideal" thread I'd say ideally none of those three ever make another start, but if we're prioritizing, start with Archer.

[Shaitan]

13 hours ago, Aerodeliria said:

I would say the Twins should throw in the kitchen sink to get Ohtani to sign for 3-5 years. Yes, that would be a bit painful, but that duel threat is something one could only dream about. What would it take? A lot! And the payout would be quite large, but it would be worth it IMHO. I also think Ohtani-san would be more than willing to come to the Twins with Maeda already in the fold. Having another Japanese player to talk with is a hidden advantage.

Here is my proposal: Kepler, either Larnach or Kiriloff, and two pitchers from the minors with high upside. Would this move the Angels? Four for one player? Is it enough? (I'm sure some teams would be willing to go down this road.) 

What do you think?

 

Ad three top 100 prospects and LAA might not hang up on you.

After that:

1) Does Ohtani have a no trade clause?

2) Why would he promise to sign a new contract after the trade?

3) Why would he only sign for 3-5 years when he'd get more on the open market.

4) Let's not assume that all Japanese players want to play with each other. I understand the cultural issues, but it's inaccurate to assume that people will be bffs (or even friends) because they are from the same country.

[Drew]

They kind of have to go for it with only having Correa for one year, but apart from that I feel like this team has a few too many needs to address in one deadline. I like the core and think we have the building blocks for a good team. But I really think you need an impact starter, another starter plus 2 impact relievers. So short of adding one of Castillo/Montas/Mahle + Noah-ish kind of SP + Jorge Lopez and Daniel Bard I just don't it's enough. And if you get all 4 are you losing 5 of our top 20 prospects or more? I'm not opposed to it but it would be a pretty big diversion from the Twins Way so I am fully expecting to get Lou Trivino and whoever is the spiritual ancestor to Ricky Nolasco. 

 

[TwinsDr2021]

1 hour ago, MTV said:

Twins/Red Sox: Twins get SP Nathan Eovaldi and UT Kike Hernandez for RF Max Kepler, 1B Miguel Sano, RHP Blayne Enlow #17p. Twins get 2 guys that have been very dominant in the postseason and off Miguel Sano, Red Sox get pieces that will benefit them sooner than later. Wallner looks about major-league ready and can put faith into him starting next year. 

Twins/Reds: Twins get OF Tyler Naquin for SP Chris Archer, OF Jake Cave, and RHP Sean Mooney #30p. Twins get a decent RF in the absence of Kepler and shave off Chris Archer. 

Twins/Marlins: Twins get RP Anthony Bass and C Jacob Stallings for 1B Aaron Sabato #13p, RHP Cole Sands #14p and C Caleb Hamilton. Twins get a strong high-end reliever and a quality backup catcher for prospects of mediocre interest.

Twins/Diamondbacks: Twins get SP Merrill Kelly for OF Misael Urbina #9p and RHP Casey Legumina #25p. Kelly honestly sounds like a twins starter and would strengthen the rotation in comparison to Archer. Urbina has upside but is struggling.

Twins/Rockies: Twins get RP Daniel Bard for SS Keoni Cavaco #19p and RP Joe Smith. I honestly don’t know what the Rockies want and hope this would be enough.

Total Off-season:

SP Nathan Eovaldi, SP Merrill Kelly, RP Anthony Bass, RP Daniel Bard, OF Tyler Naquin, U Kike Hernandez, C Jacob Stallings

For:

RF Max Kepler, 1B Miguel Sano, SP Chris Archer, RP Joe Smith, C Caleb Hamilton, OF Jake Cave, Misael Urbina #9p, Aaron Sabato #13p, Cole Sands #14p, Blayne Enlow #17p, Keoni Cavaco #19p, Casey Legumina #25p, Sean Mooney #30p.
 

Outcome: Twins still retain all highly-touted players and look good enough for the postseason.

If the Twins could pull this off it would be the miracle of all miracles and I would be all for it. They basically would 2 starters, 2 relief pitchers , a outfielder, a catcher and a utility guy for Kepler, Urbina and clear out a bunch of minor leagues players that most likely won't amount to a whole lot.

[TwinsDr2021]

1 hour ago, terrydactyls said:

You have an opinion.  I have an opinion.  I like mine.  You like yours.  That does not mean either of us are wrong.  We just have different opinions.  That's why I refrain from saying things like "the team you envision is no more a contender then the team they have this year is".  That sounds like a statement of fact when in reality it is just someone's opinion.

You are correct everybody has an option. I basically was going off the 63 million you said they would have to spend.

Do you know the amount they spent this past offseason?

Correa 35.1, Gray 10.7, Bundy 4, Archer 2.75 and Smith, which is a total of 55.05 and then they subtracted a bit from the Donaldson and Rogers trades, the difference between the money to spend next year which is only 8 less than your projected 63 and they didn't sign one top rotation guy, Plus they have to replace Sanchez, Urshela and Sano so unless those guys are replaced by prospects that will bring down your 63 to less or about the same as last year.  IMO the Twins have a philosophy on starting pitchers and that is pretty consistently allowing their starters to pitch to 21 or 22 guys, you don't and can not pay the price of a top end starter and limit him to this and I don't see them changing that philosophy for one or two guys when they haven't done that for Gray or Ryan.

IMO this front office will pay higher salaries for the offensive guys and let the pipeline, trades and Bundy's of the world fill out a rotation.

Now I hope I am wrong and they go out and sign a stud starter and they let him pitch to the best of his abilities and not stick to their starting pitching philosophy, but I have little hope and faith that they do.

 

[Major League Ready]

7 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Hope that injured Pitchers come back as good or better than they were,

Hope pitchers that have been hurt in the past don't continue to get hurt.

Hope the Twins sign a top starting pitcher and change their starting pitching philosophy for said guy.

Hope the Twins sign a really good bullpen guy.

Hope that that is no regress from Miranda.

Hope a 26 year old minor league SS (not even currently on the 40 man) gets us to the SS of the future in Lewis and hope Lewis is what he showed this year in 41 plate appearances.

Hope they sign a catcher and Jeffers come back and is better than he was this year.

Hope Buxton is at least  as healthy as he is this year and that Arraez is in the top 5 in batting average and on base percentage.

Hope that Jax and Moran do what they have done so far this year.

Hope that two rookies in Sisk and Schulfer are viable bullpen arms.

Hope that the following players are at their best Larnach (Pre-June), AK (Post April but with some power), Celestino (pre-July) and Gordon (pre-July) and are healthy.

And hope both Cleveland and Chicago play like they did in 22 or at least close to as bad as they played.

First I would like to say I hope everyone of those things happen, But lets be honest that is a lot of things that need to fall into place (Now I understand they don't need all that to happen to compete for a division title next year, but if most of it doesn't happen we could be sitting in the same spot next year claiming that 24 is the real year to compete)

 

 

We could paint any scenario we could possibly come up with in the same negative light.  We could have traded for Clevinger and hoped he would not go down with an injury like he did or many other established players who were traded and injured.  We could have signed Patrick Corbin and hoped he did not turn into a bad pitcher like he has.  We could have signed Anthony Rendon instead of Donaldson and hoped he did not turn into a pumpkin and on and on.

The same negative crap was said about trading Donaldson.  Several people absolutely insisted we got worse.  Well, since Miranda got it together in late May his OPS is 300 points higher than Donaldson.  Now we have a better player going forward and an extra $20M to spend on pitching.  

What they need is reasonable health and players to perform to the capabilities.  No kidding players will have to play well for the Twins to be good.  What a concept!   Guess what ... That scenario is true no matter what strategy the team pursues so all of this is nothing more than finding a way to be negative.   

[Major League Ready]

33 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

If the Twins could pull this off it would be the miracle of all miracles and I would be all for it. They basically would 2 starters, 2 relief pitchers , a outfielder, a catcher and a utility guy for Kepler, Urbina and clear out a bunch of minor leagues players that most likely won't amount to a whole lot.

If the team is so bad as to require this many additions they should be a seller.  Can you name one instance where a team ever added nearly this much at the deadline.  That should be a good indication if it's a good idea.

[TwinsDr2021]

30 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

We could paint any scenario we could possibly come up with in the same negative light.  We could have traded for Clevinger and hoped he would not go down with an injury like he did or many other established players who were traded and injured.  We could have signed Patrick Corbin and hoped he did not turn into a bad pitcher like he has.  We could have signed Anthony Rendon instead of Donaldson and hoped he did not turn into a pumpkin and on and on.

The same negative crap was said about trading Donaldson.  Several people absolutely insisted we got worse.  Well, since Miranda got it together in late May his OPS is 300 points higher than Donaldson.  Now we have a better player going forward and an extra $20M to spend on pitching.  

What they need is reasonable health and players to perform to the capabilities.  No kidding players will have to play well for the Twins to be good.  What a concept!   Guess what ... That scenario is true no matter what strategy the team pursues so all of this is nothing more than finding a way to be negative.   

This started out with you answer Mike Sixel's following question - "How will next year be better? They likely have no SS.... And need to replace Bundy and Archer. They won't have a built in lead in the division. I'm genuinely curious why anyone thinks next year is likely to be better. ? '

And you laid out a scenario (which by the way I hope happens which I mentioned) where a lot things have to go right and you didn't answer the question on the built in lead. I pointed out all the things that have to go right including Cleveland and Chicago being as mediocre as they are this year and the Twins FO have to sign a top tier starting pitcher (which they haven't ever done).

And your response is we could paint any scenario in a negative light, then use a multiple examples of things to the best of my knowledge didn't happen like signing Corbin, Clevinger and Rendon. Then also use some crazy example of what others thought of the Donaldson trade and how the Twins are going to spend $20 on pitching, which may or may not happen.

So yes if all or maybe all of these things happen the Twins might be in a better position next year, but as I was pointing out that is truly based on faith and hope only. I will say some of things you said are very, very likely to happen, but what I know is as of July 28th 2002 the Twins are in first place, and I can't say with any certainty that July 28 2023 they will be.

[TwinsDr2021]

15 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

If the team is so bad as to require this many additions they should be a seller.  Can you name one instance where a team ever added nearly this much at the deadline.  That should be a good indication if it's a good idea.

I think you missed my point/sarcasm on that one, There is little to no chance any of the teams would make one of those trades, (Maybe Boston would make the trade, maybe) But the rest of the trades are the Twins trading garbage or less than other teams would offer for those guys, so yes if you can basically steal other team's players for your garbage you make those trades.

For example it doesn't matter if the Twins are in first or last if you can get a major league player for Cave, Archer and #30 prospect, make the trade, or if you can trade failed (at this time could he be valued any lower?) first round pick and Smith for Bard, they could trade him next week for way more than they paid do it in a heart beat. If the Marlins are willing to do that trade again you have to do it. If the Diamondbacks are going to give you a pitcher you have control over though 25 for those two prospect, again you do that.

[Game7-91]

Like the Sano for Hill angle, that is really creative and makes sense. Whether Bos would do it? But certainly worth a shot.

Reality is to take on another 7M salary as in Thor's more than likely means having to lose salary elsewhere, and Sano's is the only one Twins could realistically move, unless we want to open up the trade Correa thread again, but something tells me we have all pretty much beat the horse dead.

As others have intimidated here, I would rather roll into Aug/Sep with Smeltzer taking on LH pen duties, low-leverage to start and see how it goes. This seems preferable to trading more prospects for someone like Moore, who has found the magic elixer this season but who knows when the clock strikes midnight for him. I just think its actually less volatility with Smeltzer in that role. And, to be honest, a big part of the BP problem trickles down from what is shaping up as possibly the worst trade of the Falvine era. I would rather try to patch that self-inflicted wound with internal options instead of possibly losing even more in that trade by moving additional prospects.

Love also the catchers named by Nick. Makes perfect sense, and any of those should be eminently gettable.

Overall, this is a solid plan, I only question taking on the additional salary without related salary dump, for as we all know, this is still Twins territory.

[nicksaviking]

2 hours ago, USAFChief said:

I'd say getting Archer out of the rotation is a higher priority than Bundy.

And I'd take Smeltzer over Archer too.

Since this is the "ideal" thread I'd say ideally none of those three ever make another start, but if we're prioritizing, start with Archer.

I want Archer removed too, but I just can't watch Bundy any more. He's just lobbing meatballs at the plate and has no business facing major league hitters. Archer and his short starts are killing this team, but if they had four decent starters ahead of him, then I think the bullpen would be fine picking up his slack.

[mike8791]

Go big or go home, Nick.  Right now the Twins have 2 reliable starters and same number of relievers.  The FO should be tarred and feathered for this state of affairs.  Just unbelievable they have not acquired one decent reliever after last year's s....storm.  Getting Gray was a plus but if they really were serious about contention this year, Bundy/Archer??  Really.

But Nick is proposing they go for it with 5 trades within the week.  Let's step back and see what they really need to hold on to the division and yes, even win a playoff series.  First and foremost, they need 2 legit starters.  Begin with a #1.(neither Ryan or Gray can be depended on to shut down a playoff team in a Game 1.  Montas, Castillo, Rodon or Lopez would do, followed by a pickup of Blake Snell, now a clear choice over Thor.  Two top arms for the pen are just as important.  Guys like Robertson or Bard would be a nice start but there are a number of other relievers out there who would slide right in back of Duran.  Finally, a veteran backup catcher would be nice but not the priority of the other 2 groups.

The Twins have excess offense players, like Sano, Steer, Waller, Gordon, and loads of hi and lo-minor pitchers to offer.  Do I think this FO is capable of shooting for the moon here?  No, but it is possible given our excess OF and IF depth at the minor and major league levels.  Hell, what was the sense of signing Correa if you don't follow through with trades for a first place team.  But no nibblin' this time!  Go big or.....

 

 

 

 

[cmoss84]

Ideal: Montas, Castillo, Contreras, Robertson, and an additional RP.

Out: Kepler, Sano, Wallner, Cavaco, Sands, Woods-Richardson, Martin

[mikelink45]

Boston, Milwaukee, Kansas city, and the Yankees have already made trades is there a reason why we want to wait until the end of the trade season?

[Mike Sixel]

7 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

Boston, Milwaukee, Kansas city, and the Yankees have already made trades is there a reason why we want to wait until the end of the trade season?

You're kind of double counting there.....

[Greglw3]

15 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Why do you want Syndergard? 

Because he’s a good pitcher.

[Greglw3]

I like your plan Nick and want Syndergaard pretty badly too. The two relievers would totally revolutionize the bullpen.

One thing I would do further is informed by watching the Twins win the 1987 World Series with basically 3 pitchers. 

To that end, I’d also go after Pablo Lopez of the Marlins. If we have to give up Steer or Wallner, that’s the price of getting in the World Series hunt. 

We’d still get to keep one of Wallner and Steer and have the monstrous talent, Jose Miranda and Alex Kirilloff and even Trevor Larnach.

I’m pretty sure that Lopez, Gray and Ryan would be better than what the Twins ran out in 1987. And the opportunity is now for another reason. The Twins have arguably their best defensive team in Twins history with Urshela, Correa, Polanco, Buxton and Kepler. Heck, Gordon is even at his best in LF.

You laid a solid groundwork. If Falvey and Levine will make the sacrifice for Lopez, the Twins could be WS contenders with the other moves you’ve laid out. In this scenario getting Thor moves 2 of 3 of Smeltzer, Archer, Bundy out of the rotation. They can’t win with 2 or 3 of those 3 in the rotation. If they could get Rich Hill, Thor could be 4th starter and regular season breaking ball rich Hill would be #5.

And Correa plays his best in the postseason.

[mikelink45]

41 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

You're kind of double counting there.....

No. I understand that these are only two trades but it takes four teams to pull it together and all four of these teams have been willing to pull the trigger. The twins I hope are in a position push for something that makes a difference. I read that we're more interested in mahle than Castillo and it bothers me. If we are serious and want to make the most of having Correa then we go for the best, not second best. I am hoping for the front office to do something that will really excite all of us. And it will take two teams not one to make it happen

[Mike Sixel]

45 minutes ago, Greglw3 said:

Because he’s a good pitcher.

You might want to check his stats....

[KirbyDome89]

6 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

I don't share the optimism that winder, alcala, or Maeda or paddock will be healthy next year.... But I guess it's possible. 

As for the OP, I don't get the Syndergard desire at all. I'm good with the rest.

Or effective. 

This is the 3rd time in less than a year Winder has been shut down with a shoulder issue. It seems unlikely to resolve itself without intervention. Maeda is going to be 35 next season post TJ, and he wasn't exactly lighting it up before getting injured in August. Paddack was a reclamation project of sorts prior to TJ. We're holding onto 20ish innings to close last season as the "real," Alcala vs. his erratic 40ish innings to start the year.