Oliva and Kaat's Long Cooperstown Journey Concludes

[Cody Christie]

Two Twins greats will finally conclude their Cooperstown journey this weekend. Tony Oliva and Jim Kaat are baseball legends, and now they will take their rightful place in the Hall of Fame.

 

 

 

Baseball's Hall of Fame voting process includes multiple flaws. Some issues include deserving candidates falling off the ballot after one vote, writers being limited to 10 votes per ballot, and the steroid era clouding voting for the last decade. Because of these issues, some deserving players take much longer to complete their Cooperstown journey. Here's a look back at what these two players went through on their way to induction. 

Tony Oliva's final game was a pinch-hit appearance on September 29, 1976. His knees had failed him and cut short his 15-year career. Oliva's first chance on the BBWAA Hall of Fame ballot came in 1982 on a ballot that included 16 future inductees, so it's easy to see why the 10-vote limit made for some tough decisions. Writers named Oliva on 63 ballots, accounting for 15.2% of the votes. This was just the start of his voting journey. 

Over the next 15 years, Oliva's numbers from his playing days didn't change, but he slowly gained support among the BBWAA voters. His peak ballot position was in the 1988 voting cycle when he finished third on the ballot but received 47.3% of the vote. This year was likely his best opportunity to get voted in by the writers as upcoming ballots were filled with some nearly unanimous first-time selections. Oliva dropped to 30% of the vote in 1989, and he never recovered as he received 36.2% of the vote in his final ballot. 

Jim Kaat's final pitch came on July 1, 1983, as a 44-year-old in his 25th big-league season. Kaat's first chance at the BBWAA ballot came in 1989 as he was part of a remarkable first-year class that included five future inductees. Writers named Kaat on 87 ballots, which garnered him 19.5% of the vote. In his 15 years on the ballot, Kaat struggled to build the support needed to gain enshrinement. The 1993 ballot cycle was his best, but he finished eighth on the ballot with 29.6% of the vote.

In their 80s, frustration likely followed each as they dealt with the election process for nearly four decades. Another level of frustration was added back in the summer of 2020 as the National Baseball Hall of Fame decided to postpone the Era Committee elections due to the COVID pandemic. Thankfully, this past winter allowed the committee votes to occur, and both players were elected.

The Golden Days Era ballot consists of 10 candidates that the BBWAA's Historical Overview Committee nominates. A 16-person committee of Hall of Famers, veteran baseball executives, and historians/media members is charged with voting on the candidates. Twelve votes are needed for a player to reach the 75% threshold required for induction. Both Oliva and Kaat were named on 12 of the 16 ballots. 

At any age, being honored as one of the best in your chosen profession must be a fantastic feeling. However, it has to be even more satisfying to know they are among baseball's inner circle. The journey to Cooperstown had to be full of disappointments, but that won't matter anymore on Sunday. Tony Oliva and Jim Kaat are in the Hall of Fame, and that's a journey no one is taking away from them. 

Do you think the Hall of Fame needs to change their voting process? How would you change it? Leave a COMMENT and start the discussion. 

 

 

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[Karbo]

I don't know of a good way to change the voting, but something should be done. These 2 men certainly deserved to be elected a long time ago. Kaat pitched for all thise years, won all those gold gloves, and was a total class act. Oliva won the batting titles, won a gold glove, and I'm old enough that I remember hearing that several opposing pitchers said he was one of the most feared hitters to face. Only injury could stop him. And what a great ambassador for the game of baseball! 

[mikelink45]

Good essay on them and on the Twins of that era in the NYT - "According to research by the Hall of Fame, no team has had more than five Hall of Famers at once in the division-play era. Besides the Twins, the others with five are the 1970 Chicago Cubs, the 1980 Boston Red Sox and the 1982 and 1984 Milwaukee Brewers. "

[Nashvilletwin]

55 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

Good essay on them and on the Twins of that era in the NYT - "According to research by the Hall of Fame, no team has had more than five Hall of Famers at once in the division-play era. Besides the Twins, the others with five are the 1970 Chicago Cubs, the 1980 Boston Red Sox and the 1982 and 1984 Milwaukee Brewers. "

I seem to recall in Ball Four Bouton describing the Seattle Pilots’ pitchers meeting before a game around that era to go through how they were going to approach each Twins hitter in the lineup. At the end of the meeting they had eight “ok, I guess we just pitch around hims”. 

Also, Oliva and Kaat are still studs well into their 80’s,  Geez, those guys are really doing well. I could only wish to be that sharp and active when (if) I get there. 

[DJL44]

I don't want to be a downer here but Kaat, Hodges and Oliva weren't even the best unelected players from their era.

I agree that the Hall of Fame needs to update the process to get players inducted faster. Too many posthumous inductions. The 75% vote threshold could be 66% and the players they have inducted wouldn't change much at all (almost everyone who has received 66% of the vote has been inducted later).

[Blyleven2011]

The hall of fame voting process is definitely flawed ,,,

There are still players worthy of the hall that aren't in the hall of fame and there are players that were voted in the hall of fame that are barely borderline .....

Hank Aaron  is still the homerun champion  in my heart ...

What pete rose did as a player deserves to be a hall of Famer  too ...

What he did after his playing days should have no bearing on his election  .... 

1 commissioner suspends him for illegal activities after his playing days were over  ,,, it's time to forgive and forget and have Pete rose in the hall of fame  with a plaque 

[DJL44]

26 minutes ago, Blyleven2011 said:

What pete rose did as a player deserves to be a hall of Famer  too ...

What he did after his playing days should have no bearing on his election  .... 

1 commissioner suspends him for illegal activities after his playing days were over  ,,, it's time to forgive and forget and have Pete rose in the hall of fame  with a plaque 

Pete Rose was gambling on baseball while managing and during his playing career. That can't be forgiven. Inducting Pete Rose would be an insult to players like Oliva and Kaat.

[Blyleven2011]

14 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Pete Rose was gambling on baseball while managing and during his playing career. That can't be forgiven. Inducting Pete Rose would be an insult to players like Oliva and Kaat.

To my knowledge it was never proven that rose bet on games during his playing  career  ... I guess it can be assumed  he did , and if it was proven than I could see the lifetime ban on the hall of fame  ....

[DJL44]

16 minutes ago, Blyleven2011 said:

To my knowledge it was never proven that rose bet on games during his playing  career  ... I guess it can be assumed  he did , and if it was proven than I could see the lifetime ban on the hall of fame  ....

He admitted to betting during his playing career. The Dowd report was correct.

[Blyleven2011]

1 minute ago, DJL44 said:

He admitted to betting during his playing career. The Dowd report was correct.

I must of been out to lunch ,,, I never heard  he bet during his playing days , I did see him  admit to Giovanni  that he bet on games during his  managing career  ....

Thanks for the update  and I'll look further into this ....

[Rosterman]

Both are truly deserving. Yes, Kaat can be absed on longevity, but also like Bert, his career was spent on teams that gave him as many losses as wins in games. So many players are often overlooked because of the teams that they played on. 

I'm not sure if we will ever know the true age of Tony Oliva, but talk about a wonderful player during his career, a great ambassador for the sport, and a true talent. Some would say he was a fringe choice for the Hall of Fame, which can only speak about the wuality of play in abseball when a guy like Tony would be considered on the fringe.

Kudos to both, who had their careers with Twins!

[bean5302]

Honestly, there's really no legitimate argument for Kaat, and Tony Oliva is a very tough case due to the very short career.

Kaat is another Jack Morris. Absolutely never great, just a sometimes quite good, but mostly above average steady accumulator over a 25 year career with only 3 All Star appearances. Kaat doesn't even have the historical game 7 World Series shutout to dominate people's mind's when they think of him. The same career bWAR as Brad Radke, only it took, literally, more than twice as many seasons to get there. I can't even fathom why the "Big Hall" guys would support Kaat's enshrinement. There's just nothing truly remarkable about his career other than how long he played.

Tony Oliva had an excellent 8 year run, and that 8 years was so excellent it's hard to overlook. He made the All Star Game 8 consecutive years and won the Rookie of the Year award with 3 top 4 finishes in the MVP voting. That said, Oliva wasn't anywhere near the best player in baseball and appeared on the top 10 of bWAR for a season only once in his career. Outside of that excellent 8 year run, Oliva wasn't worth a roster spot. I think he got the nod due to how his knees wiped out his career, but Oliva is dramatically short of the typical HoF career as the 462nd highest career bWAR. Only a handful of position players who didn't play prior to 1900 are lower than Oliva.

[bean5302]

1 hour ago, Rosterman said:

Both are truly deserving. Yes, Kaat can be absed on longevity, but also like Bert, his career was spent on teams that gave him as many losses as wins in games. So many players are often overlooked because of the teams that they played on. 

I'm not sure if we will ever know the true age of Tony Oliva, but talk about a wonderful player during his career, a great ambassador for the sport, and a true talent. Some would say he was a fringe choice for the Hall of Fame, which can only speak about the wuality of play in abseball when a guy like Tony would be considered on the fringe.

Kudos to both, who had their careers with Twins!

I don't know why Blyleven never gets the respect he deserves. Comparing guys like Morris and Kaat to Blyleven is really brutal. Blyleven was one of the most dominant pitchers in baseball for a long time and his enshrinement was from the realization he truly was an elite pitcher who'd slipped through the cracks. 

Blyleven's 7 year run from 1971-1977 (avg ERA+ 135) was better than any single year Kaat ever had and Blyleven's career was shorter, yet more than TWICE as valuable as Kaat. Verlander would have to pitch at a steady Cy Young level for at least 4-5 more years to match Blyleven's 96 career bWAR. I mean... we're talking about the 38th best WAR total in MLB history here...

[tony&rodney]

3 hours ago, Blyleven2011 said:

To my knowledge it was never proven that rose bet on games during his playing  career 

False. Pete Rose fully confessed to betting on games for the record. It is history.

Whether betting on games when playing and/or managing, both of which Rose did, deserves a lifetime ban can be discussed or debated. Rose did have a spectacular career, that is never in dispute.

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, bean5302 said:

Honestly, there's really no legitimate argument for Kaat, and Tony Oliva is a very tough case due to the very short career.

Kaat is another Jack Morris. Absolutely never great, just a sometimes quite good, but mostly above average steady accumulator over a 25 year career with only 3 All Star appearances. Kaat doesn't even have the historical game 7 World Series shutout to dominate people's mind's when they think of him. The same career bWAR as Brad Radke, only it took, literally, more than twice as many seasons to get there. I can't even fathom why the "Big Hall" guys would support Kaat's enshrinement. There's just nothing truly remarkable about his career other than how long he played.

Tony Oliva had an excellent 8 year run, and that 8 years was so excellent it's hard to overlook. He made the All Star Game 8 consecutive years and won the Rookie of the Year award with 3 top 4 finishes in the MVP voting. That said, Oliva wasn't anywhere near the best player in baseball and appeared on the top 10 of bWAR for a season only once in his career. Outside of that excellent 8 year run, Oliva wasn't worth a roster spot. I think he got the nod due to how his knees wiped out his career, but Oliva is dramatically short of the typical HoF career as the 462nd highest career bWAR. Only a handful of position players who didn't play prior to 1900 are lower than Oliva.

How many times did you go to games where these two players were active?

[RpR]

10 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

How many times did you go to games where these two players were active?

Mr. Bean seems to believe analytics are the end all.

[tony&rodney]

15 minutes ago, RpR said:

Mr. Bean seems to believe analytics are the end all.

To be fair my handle gives my bias away.

Still, as a coach and player i used various forms of maths (analytics) quite extensively since the early 1990s. Math is always useful, especially in solving problems and construction, but there is also such a thing as experience based on a multitude of factors. One-when certain players state in unequivocal terms the excellence of a player of their generation I give that some weight. This is particularly true when the player is a legend and rarely offers such praise. Tony Oliva was such a player, receiving accolades from those who seldom spoke in reverence of their opponents. Analytics have their place in baseball but they are ever evolving and should  always be considered as relative to other factors.

[Doctor Gast]

Tony Oliva has always been and will always be my favorite baseball player. Would have loved to be there to partake in the "Magic" of that moment.

[Nine of twelve]

9 hours ago, Blyleven2011 said:

The hall of fame voting process is definitely flawed ,,,

There are still players worthy of the hall that aren't in the hall of fame and there are players that were voted in the hall of fame that are barely borderline .....

Hank Aaron  is still the homerun champion  in my heart ...

What pete rose did as a player deserves to be a hall of Famer  too ...

What he did after his playing days should have no bearing on his election  .... 

1 commissioner suspends him for illegal activities after his playing days were over  ,,, it's time to forgive and forget and have Pete rose in the hall of fame  with a plaque 

Pete Rose gambled on his own team while he was managing. That may be even worse than gambling while playing. Whether that justifies exclusion from the HOF I don't know, but it was a major black mark on his record and he deserves consequences of some kind for it.

[Nine of twelve]

6 hours ago, bean5302 said:

I don't know why Blyleven never gets the respect he deserves. Comparing guys like Morris and Kaat to Blyleven is really brutal. Blyleven was one of the most dominant pitchers in baseball for a long time and his enshrinement was from the realization he truly was an elite pitcher who'd slipped through the cracks. 

Blyleven's 7 year run from 1971-1977 (avg ERA+ 135) was better than any single year Kaat ever had and Blyleven's career was shorter, yet more than TWICE as valuable as Kaat. Verlander would have to pitch at a steady Cy Young level for at least 4-5 more years to match Blyleven's 96 career bWAR. I mean... we're talking about the 38th best WAR total in MLB history here...

When Blyleven retired he was third in career strikeouts, behind only Nolan Ryan and Steve Carlton. Third!!! That alone should have made him a first ballot inductee.

[bean5302]

Neither do I believe analytics solves everything, nor do I believe a baseball player being popular makes them great. I believe only great players who were among the very best of their eras should be in the Hall of Fame. That's not Jim Kaat and it wouldn't have made a difference if he was my favorite player or if I watched him play every single game he ever played.