Can the Twins right the ship?

[bean5302]

2 hours ago, SwainZag said:

Before this 2-5 stretch they were playing at .500 ball for the previous 40 games or so.

"or so" as in maybe under .500?

The Twins are under .500 since the Royals series ended on May 22nd. That's 50 games. It doesn't really matter if the Twins are playing .500 ball "or so" since there has never been a team in MLB history which has made the playoffs at .500. So .500 ball loses ground against the playoffs. It's not like the team is terrible. They've been treading water, but if that continues that probably won't make the playoffs.

On May 22nd
MIN 25-16 - .610
CHI 21-20 - .512 (4.0 GB)
CLE 17-20 - .459 (6.0 GB)

Since May 22nd
MIN 24-26 - .480
CLE 27-24 - .529 (3.5 GB)
CHI 44-45 - .480 (4.0 GB)

So far, our division has sucked again. I didn't expect that, but one of the teams in the division is likely to wake up. Honestly, with the Twins barely in the division lead, a mile out of the Wild Card and mired in a swamp of mediocrity is about the worst position to be in for the trade deadline.

 

[Linus]

I had the Twins at 81 wins then they signed Correa and I bumped it up to 85 wins. I think that number is close and probably good enough to win the Central. Not interested in any rentals. Not giving up talent to have them pitch 15 innings out of the pen. Totally on board with using some of 2b / 3b talent to land a couple controllable relievers. 

[4twinsJA]

I think before the season most expected an average Twins team, maybe over .500. They over achieved somewhat early in season and with the pitching they have hard to expect better than .500 ball. I am starting to lean more to standing pat, maybe adding a cheap reliever, but I don't see how Twins can make enough additions to take over Yankees/Astros teams in playoffs. 

[chpettit19]

20 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

"or so" as in maybe under .500?

The Twins are under .500 since the Royals series ended on May 22nd. That's 50 games. *It doesn't really matter if the Twins are playing .500 ball "or so" since there has never been a team in MLB history which has made the playoffs at .500. So .500 ball loses ground against the playoffs. It's not like the team is terrible. They've been treading water, but if that continues that probably won't make the playoffs.

On May 22nd
MIN 25-16 - .610
CHI 21-20 - .512 (4.0 GB)
CLE 17-20 - .459 (6.0 GB)

Since May 22nd
MIN 24-26 - .480
CLE 27-24 - .529 (3.5 GB)
CHI 44-45 - .480 (4.0 GB)

So far, our division has sucked again. I didn't expect that, but one of the teams in the division is likely to wake up. Honestly, with the Twins barely in the division lead, a mile out of the Wild Card and mired in a swamp of mediocrity is about the worst position to be in for the trade deadline.

 

*No team has ever made the playoffs at (or under) .500 in a full/normal/whatever-you-want-to-call-it MLB season. The Astros did it in 2020. Made it within a game of the World Series if I remember correctly.

*2005 Padres made the playoffs at .500 "or so" since "or so" goes both above and below .500 and that SD team was 82-80 to win the horrid NL West. They were promptly swept by the Cardinals which would be an unsurprising result if this particular Twins team made the playoffs in a similar situation.

Not sure why we're assuming a one of the teams in the division is likely to wake up. I've seen nothing to suggest any team in the central is going to suddenly be great and run away with things. Every team in this division has significant flaws and the Twins and Sox find a myriad of ways to lose games they should win.

[bean5302]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

*No team has ever made the playoffs at (or under) .500 in a full/normal/whatever-you-want-to-call-it MLB season. The Astros did it in 2020. Made it within a game of the World Series if I remember correctly.

*2005 Padres made the playoffs at .500 "or so" since "or so" goes both above and below .500 and that SD team was 82-80 to win the horrid NL West. They were promptly swept by the Cardinals which would be an unsurprising result if this particular Twins team made the playoffs in a similar situation.

Not sure why we're assuming a one of the teams in the division is likely to wake up. I've seen nothing to suggest any team in the central is going to suddenly be great and run away with things. Every team in this division has significant flaws and the Twins and Sox find a myriad of ways to lose games they should win.

I'm assuming a team in the division will wake up because it's unusual to see team win a division with less than 90 wins on the season. Could be the Twins that take off. Could be the Royals (LOL, okay, so it's almost certainly not going to be the Royals).

There are teams who play .500 ball for an extended length of time and make the playoffs. The Rockies in 2007 come to mind since I'm also a Rockies fan (because I'm apparently a sports masochist)... The Rockies were .500 for the first half of the year before finishing 46-29 in the 2nd half with an absolutely torrid finish. I think they would have beaten Cleveland in the World Series as well... if it wasn't for the 3-1 collapse by the Jacobs Field resident turf shitters playing out the series like they just had a discount Brazilian steakhouse dinner from Bridesmaids. I digress... the Rockies finished the season at 90-73.

Point 1. It's rare for a playoff team to play .500 ball for as long as the Twins have.
Point 2. It's rare for a playoff team to finish with less than 90 wins.
Point 3. The best teams generally surge in the 2nd half. 

Like I said, totally possible the Twins are the team who catches fire in the 2nd half of the season. The Twins are not as talented as the White Sox, who I still believe will win the division on pitching. I think Kopech figures it out. I also think the top 4 starters for Chicago are better than any of the starters we have. Cease, Lynn, Kopech and Giolito have all been excellent in recent history. Cueto is probably their least talented starter right now... and he's as good as anybody we have. That team is a potential sleeping monster.

The idea the teams in the division will all just continue to muddle along at .500 seems unlikely to me. You could be right, though. There's no guarantee things change dramatically.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, bean5302 said:

I'm assuming a team in the division will wake up because it's unusual to see team win a division with less than 90 wins on the season. Could be the Twins that take off. Could be the Royals (LOL, okay, so it's almost certainly not going to be the Royals).

There are teams who play .500 ball for an extended length of time and make the playoffs. The Rockies in 2007 come to mind since I'm also a Rockies fan (because I'm apparently a sports masochist)... The Rockies were .500 for the first half of the year before finishing 46-29 in the 2nd half with an absolutely torrid finish. I think they would have beaten Cleveland in the World Series as well... if it wasn't for the 3-1 collapse by the Jacobs Field resident turf shitters playing out the series like they just had a discount Brazilian steakhouse dinner from Bridesmaids. I digress... the Rockies finished the season at 90-73.

Point 1. It's rare for a playoff team to play .500 ball for as long as the Twins have.
Point 2. It's rare for a playoff team to finish with less than 90 wins.
Point 3. The best teams generally surge in the 2nd half. 

Like I said, totally possible the Twins are the team who catches fire in the 2nd half of the season. The Twins are not as talented as the White Sox, who I still believe will win the division on pitching. I think Kopech figures it out. I also think the top 4 starters for Chicago are better than any of the starters we have. Cease, Lynn, Kopech and Giolito have all been excellent in recent history. Cueto is probably their least talented starter right now... and he's as good as anybody we have. That team is a potential sleeping monster.

The idea the teams in the division will all just continue to muddle along at .500 seems unlikely to me. You could be right, though. There's no guarantee things change dramatically.

In response to Point 2 here is the list of teams to make the playoffs with fewer than 90 wins in recent history:
2021: Atlanta Braves
2020: Doesn't count for obvious reasons (as I pointed out the Astros were a game away from the WS after finishing the year under .500)
2019: Milwaukee Brewers
2017: Colorado Rockies and Minnesota Twins
2016: New York Mets and San Francisco Giants and Baltimore Orioles and Toronto Blue Jays
2015: Texas Rangers and Houston Astros and New York Yankees
2014: San Francisco Giants and Pittsburgh Pirates and Kansas City Royals and Oakland Athletics

You actually have to go back to 2013 before you find a season that no team with fewer than 90 wins made the playoffs. And 4 of the 6 seasons (not counting 2020) had more than 1 team do it. Not sure I'd define that as "rare." And in those seasons only 5 teams made the playoffs per league. There's 6 teams now so I'd guess we'll actually see a number of teams make it with fewer than 90 wins as the years go on.

And if you're finishing the year 7 or 8 games over .500 I think it's pretty fair to say you played .500 ball for quite a long stretch of the season so I'm going to go ahead and say Point 1 is also incorrect.

I'm not suggesting the Twins are going to suddenly tear off a 20-5 streak and blow this division out of the water. Also not suggesting the White Sox won't. Simply saying there's no reason to think anyone in this division is going to run away with it as every team is severely flawed. The Mariners and Orioles are currently showing that any team can get hot at any time and go on a 10-0 run and really make some moves in the standings, but through the first half of games this year there's no team in this division that has given anyone any reason to think they're going to rip off 50+ wins the rest of the way and end up at 95+ wins. The Twins have shown to be what many people thought they were, an 85-90 win team most likely. The Sox are pulling a 2021 Twins and failing to live up to pre-season hype. It happens every year to a team or 2 or 5 in the league. I won't be shocked if the Sox end up in the 88-92 win range, but I'd bet on the under on 90 at this point. They are awful defensively and have been for years. They give away too many games just like the Twins. At some point we need to believe the on field performance over the names on the paper.

[bean5302]

You only have to go back to 2018 for a team without at least 90 wins to make the playoffs. I'm assuming you chose 2014 as the cutoff for a random reason, right? haha. Using 2012 as the cutoff (when the expansion to 10 team playoffs happened)

You can see the chances of the Twins team making the playoffs under the 10 team playoff system from 2012+ (ignoring 2020). One team has ever made the playoffs with the win total the Twins are projected to have at .500 ball continuing (85 wins). No team has won a division and only 7% of playoff teams have made it at the Twins' current pace.

The added 2 playoff spots may or may not matter at the win totals we're talking about.

[ICTwin25]

This team just feels gutless. Almost worst team batting with RISP and then the bullpen has lost how many games? Was really hoping for a bounceback performance tonight but its another asskicking

[SanoMustGo]

I think the Sox will come alive a bit and take over the division.  They are easily the best team when complete. The Twins are what they are, and no need to waste prospects for rentals.  Just let it ride.  Next year, after Correa opts out, the Twins may fall some.  Not sure we have the core of a winning team, or at least a large enough core to be really good.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, bean5302 said:

You only have to go back to 2018 for a team without at least 90 wins to make the playoffs. I'm assuming you chose 2014 as the cutoff for a random reason, right? haha. Using 2012 as the cutoff (when the expansion to 10 team playoffs happened)

You can see the chances of the Twins team making the playoffs under the 10 team playoff system from 2012+ (ignoring 2020). One team has ever made the playoffs with the win total the Twins are projected to have at .500 ball continuing (85 wins). No team has won a division and only 7% of playoff teams have made it at the Twins' current pace.

The added 2 playoff spots may or may not matter at the win totals we're talking about.

Wow, I don't know how I missed 2018 on my list. That was bad. Embarrassing. I'll wear the pie to the face there.

But now you're moving the goalposts. You said "Point 2. It's rare for a playoff team to finish with less than 90 wins." That is provably wrong. There have been 15 teams in the last 7 full seasons to do it. That is not rare. That's more than 2 a year.

Honestly, I ended at 2013 because that was how far back Google's standings listings easily went on seasons so I just stopped there. But 2012 is the obvious cutoff point so let's do the last 9 seasons (ignoring 2020). We add the Detroit Tigers and St Louis Cardinals that year. So in the 9 seasons with 10 team playoffs there have been 17 teams to make the playoffs with fewer than 90 wins (your stated mark of "rareness"). That's nearly 2 a season. Now we're at 12 playoff teams which gives those teams and even better chance.

2012: Cards make it within a game of the WS with 88 wins. Tigers make it to the World Series after winning a horrid Central with 88 wins (Sox only other team over .500 that year at 85 wins)
2013: Lowest win total is 90 for the Reds and they get bounced in the WC game
2014: Royals lose WS game 7 after falling 1 game out of 1st in the central with 89 wins (that means 90 wins won the division). Oakland also makes playoffs with 88 wins, but loses to those Royals in WC. 88 win Giants win the World Series after beating 88 win Pirates in WC game. 
2015: 3 teams under 90 wins make playoffs (Yanks, Rangers, Astros). None make it past ALDS.
2016: Blue Jays, Orioles, Mets, Giants all make playoffs with fewer than 90 wins. Blue Jays make the ALCS.
2017: Twins and Rockies make it with fewer than 90 wins. Both bounced in WC game.
2018: None make it as I completely missed earlier. Yikes.
2019: Brewers make it and lose WC game.
2020: Ignored
2021: Braves win World Series with 88 wins.

So 4 teams since the the playoffs expanded have actually made the World Series with fewer than 90 wins in the regular season. 2 of those teams actually won the World Series. 2 other teams make Championship Series with fewer than 90 wins. That's 6 teams in the Championship Series in 9 seasons that all had fewer than 90 wins.

Again, not claiming the Twins are world beaters or I'd bet on them to even make the playoffs, let alone win a game, let alone win a series, let alone win the World Series, but you were clearly wrong about the 90 win mark, and that makes it pretty clear that you're wrong about playing .500 ball for large stretches of a season. I'm not going to tell anyone on here they should go pick out their spot for the WS parade, but people act like the season is doomed because they're on pace for 1 fewer win than last year's WS champs. Just trying to give the situation a little perspective.

[bean5302]

45 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Wow, I don't know how I missed 2018 on my list. That was bad. Embarrassing. I'll wear the pie to the face there.

But now you're moving the goalposts. You said "Point 2. It's rare for a playoff team to finish with less than 90 wins." That is provably wrong. There have been 15 teams in the last 7 full seasons to do it. That is not rare. That's more than 2 a year.

 

Yep. Not as rare as I remembered it being. About 20% of playoff teams have done it at 89+ wins. Under 88 wins gets the "rare" mark from me since it's unlikely any team with 87 or fewer wins makes it in a given year.

It's why I threw the graph up there so it was easier to see what was really happening rather than cherry picking numbers. From 97-88 wins, it's a fast linear drop off with a steeper drop off for winning the division from 96-89 wins.

Any way you look at it, the Twins are not in a great spot if they don't pick it up. Historically, 7% Wildcard, 0% division win at this pace.

I was also looking at the trends on whether or not big win seasons (teams with well over 100 wins) increased the number of low win teams making the playoffs. I didn't see any correlations there or really any correlation between low win playoff teams and how the division winners performed or an obvious pattern as to how the teams in the division performed.

[Irishman]

15 hours ago, Craig Arko said:

Trade the entire 26 man roster for prospects.

How about trading Baldelli, Falvey and Levine for prospects?

[beterday]

22 hours ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

Winning 85-90 games feels about right for this level of talent. We're short in all 3 areas - we need 1 starter who can pitch #1 or #2, 2-3 bullpen pieces that can pitch in late inning, high leverage situations, and 1-2 middle of the order bats. The only one we can possibly fill in internally is the bats if we can get middle of the order performance from 2 of Kirilloff, Miranda, and dare I speak it our loud, Sano. There may be starter help on the way in Winder and others, but not for this year. There's no way we can trade for all that we need without gutting the farm and/or the young players on the MLB roster. 

So what do we do? I vote for trading for a reliever or two as long as we trade either prospects 15 or lower or a guy like Urshela. Otherwise, let's run it out. This team is being built for next year. let's not sacrifice that for the fools gold of this year.  88 wins might get us the division,. some playoff experience and help position us for next year. I'd be happy with that.  

I have enjoyed this season greatly and the Twins have actually come back and been competitive to the degree where I watch most games to the end.  Last night was a first; nothing to do later in the  game, turned it on with my bowl of ice cream, watched Jax give up the home run, and switched to Netflix to watch a show.  Said to myself, "I don't have it in me to care about another bullpen fiasco."  Biggest loss due to front office not doing anything, in my opinion, is making Correa decide that the Twins are not the place for him.  I don't believe the "big boys" only care about money, although Trout and Harper may have resigned themselves to mediocrity, and he is noticing the repeated comebacks lost to Pagan's ineptitude.  Feel like after Chicago wins one more of the two left that the second half of the season without bullpen help will make the rest of this season something I will pay 1/2 of my current attention to.

[Old Twins Cap]

Twins have been competitive while trying to retool their pitching staff and working a bunch of young hitters into the lineup.

That's reasonably exciting after what we've been through the last few years.

But, realistically, they are years away from being a top 4 team in the league.

And, you never go anywhere in MLB without your best players having "career" years.  Who is having a career year on this year's Twins?

Anyone?  A hobbled Buxton?  Kepler?  Correa?

Just Arraez.

We will be a middling team for awhile, as young players mature, the Twins sort out their pitching and we continue to hope veterans find their prime years of performance.

[chpettit19]

9 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Yep. Not as rare as I remembered it being. About 20% of playoff teams have done it at 89+ wins. Under 88 wins gets the "rare" mark from me since it's unlikely any team with 87 or fewer wins makes it in a given year.

It's why I threw the graph up there so it was easier to see what was really happening rather than cherry picking numbers. From 97-88 wins, it's a fast linear drop off with a steeper drop off for winning the division from 96-89 wins.

Any way you look at it, the Twins are not in a great spot if they don't pick it up. Historically, 7% Wildcard, 0% division win at this pace.

I was also looking at the trends on whether or not big win seasons (teams with well over 100 wins) increased the number of low win teams making the playoffs. I didn't see any correlations there or really any correlation between low win playoff teams and how the division winners performed or an obvious pattern as to how the teams in the division performed.

They for sure have work to do. I haven't seen anyone on these forums saying otherwise. I mean this thread itself is about whether or not they CAN right the ship. We all agree the ship is not right and improvements need to be made. What some of us are saying is that a couple trades and improvements to the pen could/would be enough to right the ship enough to get into the playoffs and then, as recent history has shown us, anything can happen.

The Twins need this AS break more than any team in baseball. The Orioles and M's are probably wishing they had more time before the break due to the way they're playing. Your graph showed the Twins are on pace for 87 wins. 88 looks like the mark they really need to hit. So even with the recent, massive struggles they're still just 1 game off the pace needed. And with the way this division is looking this year 87 may actually be enough. But, I think, everyone agrees the ship needs to be righted and it starts with changes to the pitching staff. The question is whether or not it can be righted. I think it can, but wouldn't mortgage the future with huge trades for uncontrollable players. A couple moves for expiring, veteran relievers would be a nice place to start, though.

[SanoMustGo]

It's going to be costly to acquire what is necessary to turn this around.  Does the FO want to do this?  They have alot to consider.  Does what they do impact the chance that Correa stays?  Can the Twins realistically afford a $35 million dollar player when they probably need to spend money to get the pitching righted.  This goes beyond this season.  If they know they need pitching, how much does his contract impact that ability?  I personally think the FO is in a tough spot, and Correa's contract is a big part of it.   If Lewis was healthy letting Correa go after this season might be the best option BUT, he is not.  Unless the Pohlad's increase payroll, not sure we can get the pitching we need if Correa stays.  If the Twins fail this season, the whole Correa signing may actually set the organization back rather than moving it forward. If Correa leaves, who plays the position next season? It seems the multiple knee injuries to Lewis, along with Correa's contract, may actually be a real problem fixing the pitching issue.

What is everyone's thoughts?

[Craig Arko]

13 hours ago, Irishman said:

How about trading Baldelli, Falvey and Levine for prospects?

How about contraction?

[LA VIkes Fan]

On 7/16/2022 at 10:35 AM, SanoMustGo said:

It's going to be costly to acquire what is necessary to turn this around.  Does the FO want to do this?  They have alot to consider.  Does what they do impact the chance that Correa stays?  Can the Twins realistically afford a $35 million dollar player when they probably need to spend money to get the pitching righted.  This goes beyond this season.  If they know they need pitching, how much does his contract impact that ability?  I personally think the FO is in a tough spot, and Correa's contract is a big part of it.   If Lewis was healthy letting Correa go after this season might be the best option BUT, he is not.  Unless the Pohlad's increase payroll, not sure we can get the pitching we need if Correa stays.  If the Twins fail this season, the whole Correa signing may actually set the organization back rather than moving it forward. If Correa leaves, who plays the position next season? It seems the multiple knee injuries to Lewis, along with Correa's contract, may actually be a real problem fixing the pitching issue.

What is everyone's thoughts?

I think they can right the starting pitching staff short term with a trade for Castillo (my choice) or Montas. That moves Gray to #3, Ober #4, and Bundy #5. Winder and Archer go into the bullpen to strengthen that and they trade for Robertson, Bard or Lopez (hopeful shedding Pagan in the process).  I know that costs a lot in prospect capital but isn't that one of the things that prospect capital is for? We have a relatively young team now so if we can make these moves without giving up Kirilloff, Miranda, or Winder, this would really improve things without taking on a lot of money so we can afford Correa again next year IF he wants to stay. 

I'd also be interested in Josh Bell if he isn't too expensive in prospect capital. Maybe we can even get the Nats to take Sano as part of a package with a solid prospect. He replaces Bell at 1B there and reunites with Cruz. If money is the issue, we send the $4m to pay for him for the rest of this year. Bell drops in the #4 position in the lineup after Arraez, Correa, and Buxton, with Polanco 5, Kirilloff 6, Miranda/Urshela 7, Kepler 8 and Sanchez 9.    

[SteveLV]

I don't think anyone can look at the Twins objectively and believe they can compete with the Yankees or the Astros even if they hold on to make the playoffs.  (I know the Braves did it last year, but they had pitching.)

I believe the Twins need to be both sellers and buyers at the deadline.

They should explore trades of Correa, Archer, Bundy and any of their rental relievers that draw interest.

They should try and convert some of their depth in position players for pitchers with long-term control, e.g., convert Miranda/Steer/Martin types (not all 3) for a player like Bednar.  They have more hitting depth than quality pitching depth.

Thoughts?

[Battle ur tail off]

On 7/15/2022 at 10:18 PM, SanoMustGo said:

I think the Sox will come alive a bit and take over the division.  They are easily the best team when complete. The Twins are what they are, and no need to waste prospects for rentals.  Just let it ride.  Next year, after Correa opts out, the Twins may fall some.  Not sure we have the core of a winning team, or at least a large enough core to be really good.

The Sox are a perpetual middling, underperforming team. 

They might have talent, but I would debate it's any better than what we have. If they have so much talent and are close to or in their primes, then why haven't we seen them do anything of note for how many years? They are stuck in the same type of rut the Twins are and I would argue they are a much worse run organization.

[Doctor Gast]

If we didn't trade our LH closer and stuck on the mindset that we don't need long relief, we'd be sitting very pretty right now. Alas that's not reality, the Twins could go out and get another closer and "they" could change their mindset and establish a long relef corp and the Twins could start pulling away from the competion (getting a front-line pitcher wouldn't hurt going into PS either). Focusing on short relief has been a mindset for many years,  It'd be very easy but I don't think it'll happen.

[Doctor Gast]

On 7/16/2022 at 6:41 AM, Irishman said:

How about trading Baldelli, Falvey and Levine for prospects?

I really like our roster. I'd be willing to give Falvey another chance but not the others

[LA VIkes Fan]

I don't see them trading Correa, and I don't see Archer or Bundy getting any sort of return. Bundy has actually been our second most reliable starter behind Ryan, and I think he leads the team in innings. I'd leave him in the #5 spot. I think Archer can be one of the late inning relievers we need, We need to adjust his contract incentives but I think he could thrive as a late inning/closer guy. 

I do agree that it's time to trade some prospect depth for MLB guys. I would basically be open to trading anyone except Kirilloff, Miranda, Winder, and maybe Canterino although I would only trade Canterino or Larnach for a starter.  Here's my dream scenario (all trades validated through Baseball Trade Simulator):

1) Laranch and Canterino for Montas and Puk . . . or Larnach, Canterino, and an A Ball guy for Castillo. Starting pitching added, maybe with a left handed reliever.  

2) Sands, Strotman and Julien to Nationals for Josh Bell and Tanner Rainey. Throw in Sano and enough cash to pay his salary so he doesn't add or subtract from value. Gets us a #4 hitter and solid 7th inning type reliever.  

3.  Here's the tough one - Enlow for Daniel Robertson of the Cubs or Enlow and Festa for Jorge Lopez of the Orioles. Closer added. 

Thoughts?

[SpicyGarvSauce]

Sano & Maeda return.

"It's just like making a trade."

[SteveLV]

Like the trade ideas, seems too light for Montas and Puk.  Don't want to trade Festa until we see one more season of development.  Young man has chance of being special.  But these are along the lines I was thinking.  

[nokomismod]

The break came at a good time as the team was stumbling in most areas and needed a reset. If Ober, Winder, and Ryan can step up and stay healthy I like the team’s chances. 
Get some bullpen help soon though as those crushing losses have to take a big toll on team. 

[Riverbrian]

On 7/15/2022 at 11:44 AM, Richie the Rally Goat said:

In the 42 games prior they were 27 and 16. Every team has ups and downs and streaks. Every team has long stretches of .500 ball.

there’s 71 games left, some bullpen reinforcements will take this team a long ways (especially a long man that can soak up innings on nights like last night)

Every year... Every Team. Ups and Downs and every year we forget. 

In the words of Pete Townshend. "That Big Wheel Spins, The Hair Thins. People forget. 

[Riverbrian]

On 7/15/2022 at 12:54 PM, USAFChief said:

Well no, they're not going to have five aces. But that's not the point...they need the starters they have to pitch better than they have the past couple weeks. A long reliever does nothing to fix that.

Last night they used Megill, Smith, Cotton and Gordon. Inconsequential. 

I'd rather not tie up a pen spot on a guy who's only job is to pitch when it doesn't matter. At the very least, as a I said, it's way low on my priority list. 

Does anyone carry a dedicated "long guy" any more?

Agreed.

A long guy who comes into games after the wheels come off the starter does absolutely nothing to improve the pen. 

Teams can't afford to waste the roster spot on such a thing these days. 

Get Arms that can throw. Don't get tricksters. Get those I can strike you out when a strikeout is needed type arms. 

Add to the top and force out the bottom. 

We will all feel a lot better if the front office accomplishes this. 

 

 

[TwinsDr2021]

6 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Teams can't afford to waste the roster spot on such a thing these days. 

 

 

 

The Twins have had Archer on the roster the whole year and he is a long man pretending to be a starter. I think point is when you have multiple guys that rarely ever see the 5th inning in a start, you need guys in the pen that can go 3 or 4 innings. So are they "long men" so to speak or pitchers that can pitch a few innings every 3 to 4 days.

And as long as the Twins plan on starting Archer, bringing back Ober they way they have always pitched him and and employing Bundy they need a pitchers that can go multiple innings or a manager willing to let pitchers go multiple innings.

[wabene]

Per "Randball" (no stu so this is "real") ?

"The  Twins started the year 4-8, and went 3-7 in their final 10 games before the All-Star break. In between, though, they went 43-29 — good enough for 50-44 overall and a slim lead over Cleveland (two games) and Chicago (three games) in a weak division."

This is a perspective that hadn't occurred to me, but adds some optimism for me. This team has played the most games in the AL and was wiped out on many levels as they limped to the break. Remember they beat a lot of good teams during their run. A couple of outside adds, some returning from injury, they could go on another run.