Ryan Doumit Reinforces Mauer's Value at Catcher

[jokin]

Problem is, Doumit isn't a very good DH either, not compared to other DHs....now, compared to the options the Twins have, and teh fact he can also be the backup catcher, I'm good with him being on the roster. Personally, I believe catcher defense is one of the last great myths of baseball. Sure, framing might matter, but all the rest is probably BS.

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Doumit DH OPS for 2012: .858

AL DH avg OPS for 2012: .758

 

Doumit C OPS for 2012: .761

AL C average OPS 2012: .710

 

I'll take the 100 extra points or so of SLG, which accounted for the OPS differential at DH and the superior hitting numbers at C, for the comparatively cheap deal ($3,5M/yr) the Twins made (by comparison, Kurt Suzuki earns $6.5M and his putrid OPS in 2012 was .605- and was only .536 for the majority of his ABs- in Oakland).

 

And pairing Doumit with Mauer at DH gave the Twins the 5th highest DH OPS in 2012 while keeping Mauer relatively healthy and in the lineup most of the year. Credit to Ryan on a good overall strategy around this acquisition. Having said that, I hope Ryan is listening to any decent offer for Doumit if/when the Twins are officially out of contention.

[Brock Beauchamp]

What is the basis for likely? Is it normal that players in their 30s will continue to build on a career season?

 

If by "career season", you mean "fourth highest OPS of career" and "third highest OPS+ of career", then sure, Doumit had a "career season". He had a lot of ABs last year but his numbers weren't even close to 2008, when he had his real "career season" at age 27.

 

We get it. You don't like Doumit. But at least try to remain factually accurate.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Expensive? Are you kidding? He's getting paid relative peanuts for a veteran and he's a starting major leaguer. And, you know, his salary is hardly pushing our budget over the top, stopping us from getting other players...

 

The average MLB win reportedly costs $7-9m. Doumit posted a 1.4 WAR last season, which doesn't even include the replacement level wins.

 

So, at $3.5m, he's obviously expensive. I don't know how the Twins manage to stay afloat paying a 1.4 WAR player $3.5m (every season, even!).

[old nurse]

Well this is clearly going no where so I'll just make my last point then leave it.

 

If there are no stats to back something up then it is just a guess. Guesses can be right but are wrong a disturbingly high percentage of the time also.

 

What defensive statistics then can you use to determine what catcher is better that does not contain subjectivity or the influence of what another player is doing?

[Brock Beauchamp]

If he is a capable catcher, he is a bargain. I believe there are teams that do not consider an option at catcher.

 

If you take away catcher and compare home to a role of bench bat/DH you compare him to a different group.

 

Available this winter with similar OPS and no glove were Travis Hafner and Jim Thome. Hafner has a one year contract for 2 million. Thome is unsigned. We committed 7 million over 2 years. If he is only a bat, he is somewhat expensive compared to the market.

 

Whether he is capable or not, he IS a catcher. And he's a damned fine hitting one, too. Then he slots in a DH and puts up respectable numbers (as a DH in 2012, better numbers than Hafner).

 

Doumit allows Mauer to rest and DH while not being an embarrassment at the plate. He slots in as DH and posts above average numbers. He does all of this for $3.5m a season.

 

You need to take a step back and look at the situation objectively. There's a reason you're the ONLY PERSON who goes out of their way to bash Doumit. He's a bad catcher, a good hitter, and is paid peanuts.

[jorgenswest]

Whether he is capable or not, he IS a catcher. And he's a damned fine hitting one, too. Then he slots in a DH and puts up respectable numbers (as a DH in 2012, better numbers than Hafner).

 

Doumit allows Mauer to rest and DH while not being an embarrassment at the plate. He slots in as DH and posts above average numbers. He does all of this for $3.5m a season.

 

You need to take a step back and look at the situation objectively. There's a reason you're the ONLY PERSON who goes out of their way to bash Doumit. He's a bad catcher, a good hitter, and is paid peanuts.

 

So far, I have used only data in reference to any player. I have described them as like or not. I have not used a string of asterisks as some have to describe players like Butera. I have never attacked another writer. I do have a request. I discovered it is not possible to ignore every writer on this sure. Some can not be ignored in spite of the fact that they have not always followed the sites expectations for posts. Can this change be made?

[jorgenswest]

If by "career season", you mean "fourth highest OPS of career" and "third highest OPS+ of career", then sure, Doumit had a "career season". He had a lot of ABs last year but his numbers weren't even close to 2008, when he had his real "career season" at age 27.

 

We get it. You don't like Doumit. But at least try to remain factually accurate.

 

The original comment was in reference to his 18 home runs and 75 RBIs quoted in the discussion. Thanks for pointing out that I was not clear about which career numbers I was referring to. ThePuck had referenced OPS also. His 27 year old season was better in terms of OPS while getting his second most plate appearances in his career. I wonder if it is fair to describe last year's OPS as 4th highest when it was the only season of his career that he would have had enough plate appearances to qualify for any average title.

[old nurse]

The average MLB win reportedly costs $7-9m. Doumit posted a 1.4 WAR last season, which doesn't even include the replacement level wins.

 

So, at $3.5m, he's obviously expensive. I don't know how the Twins manage to stay afloat paying a 1.4 WAR player $3.5m (every season, even!).

 

7 catchers with a combined WAR of 9.1 (average 1.3) were free agents and signed this still ongoing winter. Average contract was 3.9 mil. per year Doumit is paid about average for a catcher if he would have been a free agent.

[Winston Smith]

It is amazing how much time is spent on here talking about backup catchers when we have a team that lost 195 games over the last two years. Don't you think we have bigger problems?

[Brock Beauchamp]

7 catchers with a combined WAR of 9.1 (average 1.3) were free agents and signed this still ongoing winter. Average contract was 3.9 mil. per year Doumit is paid about average for a catcher if he would have been a free agent.

 

That's kind of my point. You're advocating signing one of those catchers AND a DH.

 

For what Doumit brings to the team, he's worth that $3.5m and probably more. Also, how many of those catchers would post a 1.3 WAR if they started only 56 games behind the dish?

 

The Twins don't need a full-time catcher. They need a guy with flexibility who can also hit. That's Ryan Doumit.

[Brock Beauchamp]

So far, I have used only data in reference to any player. I have described them as like or not. I have not used a string of asterisks as some have to describe players like Butera. I have never attacked another writer. I do have a request. I discovered it is not possible to ignore every writer on this sure. Some can not be ignored in spite of the fact that they have not always followed the sites expectations for posts. Can this change be made?

 

In a word, no. You cannot ignore an admin.

[jorgenswest]

That's kind of my point. You're advocating signing one of those catchers AND a DH.

 

For what Doumit brings to the team, he's worth that $3.5m and probably more. Also, how many of those catchers would post a 1.3 WAR if they started only 56 games behind the dish?

 

The Twins don't need a full-time catcher. They need a guy with flexibility who can also hit. That's Ryan Doumit.

 

I do think the Twins need both a back up catcher that is not a significant liability in the field and a bench bat/DH. I don't think they have anyone in the organization that would be an adequate solution to the back up catcher spot. It is something they needed to fix this winter.

 

Doumit should be in the role of DH/bench bat/emergency third catcher.

[jorgenswest]

In a word, no. You cannot ignore an admin.

 

Fair enough. In that case, the admins would need to hold themselves to a higher set of standards.

[stringer bell]

Doumit is fine in his role. He is not ideal, but as Pig has pointed out, he is worth the money spent on him. That said, I'm in favor of trading Doumit if a) they get a decent return and somebody with the ability to hit at or above the replacement level replaces Doumit.

[Riverbrian]

Bill James published the Defensive Spectrum back in the 80's.

 

1B-LF-RF-3B-CF-2B-SS-C

 

Catcher is the hardest position to play according to Bill James and also according to Managers, General Managers and Talent Scouts. It's pretty much universal.

 

If you are catching in the Major Leagues... You have survived a Filter in the Minors... and therefore should have enough talent to perform defensively at your position.

 

Filter:

 

Catchers need to have a pop time under 2.00... If they can't get the ball off in 2.00... They are cut or moved to another position.

 

Catchers need to be able to throw accurately to 2B... If the a large percentage of throws end up in CF... They are cut or moved to another position.

 

Catchers need to read the ball coming out of the pitchers hand to be able to anticipate where the ball is heading before the ball gets to it's location and be mobile enough to move right or left to block fastball and sliders moving at 90 MPH plus... If they can't do this... They are cut or moved to another position.

 

Catchers need to be able to set up hitters by studying film and using that information and games of experience to call pitches and location... If they can't grasp this... They are cut or moved to another position.

 

It's important to point out that... The defensive Spectrum moves from right to left... Very rarely does a player fail on the left side and then get moved to the right side of the spectrum. If an Outfielder isn't getting the job done defensively... They don't move him to catcher or SS to see if he works out there. Catchers and SS's are moved to less challenging positions all the time.

 

The point is... Catcher is an important position defensively and there is a hard filter that culls the pack. Doumit has survived the filter so we don't need to assume that he is a defensive time bomb.

 

The difference in Pop Time between average and passable is .2 seconds. That is an amount of time that can easily be erased and gained by the timing of the pitchers delivery to the plate.

 

Yes... There are better catchers defensively than Doumit... But he's not a third grader behind the plate either.

 

To counter myself... I will add that while Doumit is passable behind the plate... If he was better... He'd be making a ton more money because his offensive skills are better than most backstops.

 

It's ok to trade a little D for a little O as long as the D you give away isn't a complete disaster. Doumit hasn't been a complete disaster because he is still catching.

[jorgenswest]

I believe there are several teams that have filtered out the possibility of Doumit catching for them. That he has been able to catch regularly for a two teams that have have been among the weakest in baseball while he has played for them might also mean that those teams don't recognize his liability behind the plate.

 

He is a valuable option as a DH/bench bat/emergency catcher. The Twins needed to find a batter defensive back up catcher. There is room for both Doumit and a back up catcher. They don't need 4 middle infielders.

[redlyn]

He will not catch very many games if Joe has his say. Joe wants to catch more this year and Doumit will not hurt the team very much with his defense.

[Riverbrian]

I believe there are several teams that have filtered out the possibility of Doumit catching for them. That he has been able to catch regularly for a two teams that have have been among the weakest in baseball while he has played for them might also mean that those teams don't recognize his liability behind the plate.

 

He is a valuable option as a DH/bench bat/emergency catcher. The Twins needed to find a batter defensive back up catcher. There is room for both Doumit and a back up catcher. They don't need 4 middle infielders.

 

You may be right... No way of knowing how other teams assess his defensive skills... But I personally doubt that the Twins are much different than the other clubs when it comes to assessment.

[Oxtung]

What defensive statistics then can you use to determine what catcher is better that does not contain subjectivity or the influence of what another player is doing?

 

What does this have to do with my point? He stated a bunch of things were "very very important." I asked him how he knew that.

 

If there is no objective way to measure the effects of a task how do you know said task is important?

[Riverbrian]

What does this have to do with my point? He stated a bunch of things were "very very important." I asked him how he knew that.

 

If there is no objective way to measure the effects of a task how do you know said task is important?

 

I'm still somewhat flabbergasted. I understand your point but I don't understand how you don't understand mine.

 

I'm not chasing some Ghost... Anyone who has played the game understands the importance of defense at the catcher position to the overall team. It isnt just passed balls and nailing base theft... Anyone who was played a game with a catcher who isn't up to snuff has the seen the damage done.

 

1. Sabermatricians admit that defensive measureables for catcher defense are sub-par.

2. Baseball Management... Scouts, GM's, Manager and Coaches universally agree and cull and search for defense at the catcher spot. So much so... That it is one of the few positions that a player will be re-signed despite Mendoza line Batting Averages.

 

If you consider points 1 and 2... I'm not sure how this is guessing. I usually type I Guess or I'm guessing when I am.

 

Any way... I think Catching Defense is very important and so does almost everyone in the business (even Bill James) and Doumit is OK behind the plate. He wouldn't be behind the plate if he wasn't because its important.

[gil4]

The average MLB win reportedly costs $7-9m. Doumit posted a 1.4 WAR last season, which doesn't even include the replacement level wins.

 

Something doesn't add up with that. If that were true, then it would cost $640M just to finish .500. ($8M x 81). I also don't think there is a true linear cost for wins, even if you have an average.

[ThePuck]

Fangraphs attempts to put a value on a players season based on performance and comparing that performance to other players' performance and what they get paid. Doumit, according to Fangraphs, was worth more than twice what he was paid last year.

[gil4]

I'm not chasing some Ghost... Anyone who has played the game understands the importance of defense at the catcher position to the overall team...

 

Baseball Management... Scouts, GM's, Manager and Coaches universally agree and cull and search for defense at the catcher spot.

 

Here is where I see the communication breakdown. You are trying to compare the defense of guys who have been through the culling process. Is defense at the catcher position important? Obviously, yes. Is the difference between "good enough for the majors" and "deserving the Gold Glove" important? Until we can quantify that in a meaningful way, you're just guessing or giving style points.

[Oxtung]

I'm still somewhat flabbergasted. I understand your point but I don't understand how you don't understand mine.

 

I'm not chasing some Ghost... Anyone who has played the game understands the importance of defense at the catcher position to the overall team. It isnt just passed balls and nailing base theft... Anyone who was played a game with a catcher who isn't up to snuff has the seen the damage done.

 

1. Sabermatricians admit that defensive measureables for catcher defense are sub-par.

2. Baseball Management... Scouts, GM's, Manager and Coaches universally agree and cull and search for defense at the catcher spot. So much so... That it is one of the few positions that a player will be re-signed despite Mendoza line Batting Averages.

 

If you consider points 1 and 2... I'm not sure how this is guessing. I usually type I Guess or I'm guessing when I am.

 

Any way... I think Catching Defense is very important and so does almost everyone in the business (even Bill James) and Doumit is OK behind the plate. He wouldn't be behind the plate if he wasn't because its important.

 

Clearly you don't understand my point. I asked you how you knew, since that is a definitive term, that all the things you listed were "very very important."

 

So far your answers have been:

• I played the game so I know.
  
• It's common knowledge.
  
• Other people believe it, so it's true.
  
• And defensive metrics are "sub-par." (Of course I have never mentioned them so congrats on that giant strawman.)
  

[old nurse]

What does this have to do with my point? He stated a bunch of things were "very very important." I asked him how he knew that.

 

If there is no objective way to measure the effects of a task how do you know said task is important?

you were the one wanting to quantify with statistics the role of a catcher. I want to know if there is a reasonable way to do it. Any measure I have seen on defense requires subjectivity and is incomplete in the role of a catcher.

[Oxtung]

you were the one wanting to quantify with statistics the role of a catcher. I want to know if there is a reasonable way to do it. Any measure I have seen on defense requires subjectivity and is incomplete in the role of a catcher.

 

I actually said there weren't good ways to quantify many aspects of catching. So do I want to have good defensive catcher metrics? Yes. Am I claiming good defensive catcher metrics exist? No. That's the difference here. I recognize that I don't know how important those "very very important" attributes are. I may have an opinion on those things but that's all it is, an opinion, until there is a good way to quantify defensive catching.

 

On the other hand Riverbrian is making a definitive claim that defensive catching is knowable and that it is "very very important".

[stringer bell]

Doumit is a slightly better version of Brendan Harris and Matthew LeCroy--two guys who didn't have the skills to hold down key defensive positions but didn't have the bats to be regulars at less demanding positions. I don't think a lot of teams wanted Doumit as a starting catcher and the teams that would have him probably don't want to pay what he should be making. That Doumit can get some at-bats as an outfielder and DH increases his value. No, he is not a great defensive catcher and he's not a good defensive outfielder either, but he can perform those duties well enough to be more than an emergency backup.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Something doesn't add up with that. If that were true, then it would cost $640M just to finish .500. ($8M x 81). I also don't think there is a true linear cost for wins, even if you have an average.

 

My math was bad. It's $7-9m per win above replacement (which is somewhere around 55 wins in total, I believe).

[ashbury]

My math was bad. It's $7-9m per win above replacement (which is somewhere around 55 wins in total, I believe).

 

How did the Tigers go 43-119 in 2003? Did they purposely go sign a bunch of sub-replacement players?

[Brock Beauchamp]

How did the Tigers go 43-119 in 2003? Did they purposely go sign a bunch of sub-replacement players?

 

Sabre-dudes used teh maths to calculate that if you ran out a bunch of waiver wire, AAA-types, you'd end up with a win total somewhere in the low to mid 50s. I can't remember the exact number.

 

Of course, it's not impossible to go under that number if you really really try to do it. But it's really rare.

 

Look at the 2012 Astros. They were absolutely awful and traded away every player with a pulse in July and still ended up around 55 wins.