White Sox 9, Twins 8: In a Wild Game, Chicago Walks Off the Twins in 10

[MMMordabito]

22 minutes ago, IndianaTwin said:

To those who are part of the DFA Pagan Club, were you also part of the DFA Duffey Club? 

Because Duffey’s now given up 0 runs with a 1.00 WHIP in 10 innings over his last seven games.

Point being, guys with past success very often right the ship.

It seems his ship has been getting further and further off course since 2020. You just can't give up jacks at the rates he has the past season and a half and expect success. This season he's added in a crappy walk rate, which has made it even worse.  I'd draw from the chance pile of Minaya, Cano, Hamilton or Sisk.

[KirbyDome89]

42 minutes ago, DocBauer said:

Detroit is like kryptonite, in the Central at least. They are either going to bottom out further, OR, they are going to be very dangerous in a couple of years beyond the Central. 

I'm not 100% on Ryan finding  a certain pitch. His stuff plays. And his increased slider usage really plays up his deceptive FB. He's still, basically, a rookie. There's a lot of general learning left to do. And he's smart enough to figure it out. I think, for now, his problem is just getting back to "rhythm" coming off his covid. 

I don't have a lot of faith in Megill in pressure situations. But I've watched him in games and ST and was kinda wowed with what he threw. And I've been thinking since I first watched him throw in ST; "if he could do this consistently....". Maybe a silent steal, but he should be nothing more than a middle guy at this point. I think he honestly has a chance with some time.

Did an absolute "spit take" in reference to Jeffers having the decency to SO to give Arraez another chance to hit. High 5er to make me laugh that hard after a loss.

 

I agree that he's young, and that could mostly be what's at play here. I think his lack of a plus secondary pitch is hurting him though. Opponents seem to be grinding out more ABs recently, and I doubt that's accidental. Houston kinda laid that blueprint earlier in the year. 

[strumdatjag]

Well at least you can’t say the Twins are boring. 

[jimbo92107]

Agree with Darwin's comment about Jeffers calling for yet another big, slow vertical curve from Megill, when his heater was popping in at 97 to 99. In comparison, Megill's curveball had a nice, gradual bend and a big hump. When a pitch like that doesn't wind up in the second deck, I wanna know why. 

I feel kinda bad for Pagan, who clearly has very lively stuff. Wouldn't surprise me if somewhere down the line he becomes a total shutdown reliever. However, right now he's an inconsistent mess. Walks two, then a homer. Gives up a single, then a homer. Then he shows sizzling pitches that mow down the opposition. That's the guy we like, but his Evil Twin keeps showing up in the same inning. Hey, if you don't care who wins, this can make for some very entertaining baseball. But darn it, we're Twins fans, so we don't like the Pagan Sacrifice. 

This game was full of fun. Like a roller coaster, but at the end you find out lost your wallet. Well, maybe not that bad... At least Chicago's fans had a good time at the end. You can't always win, but sometimes you can make your opponents very happy.

[Schmoeman5]

1 hour ago, Nine of twelve said:

OK, name his replacement.

Dan Quisenberry

[USAFChief]

1 hour ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

You can’t name one?

I sure don't read much about the vaunted pitching pipeline(TM) anymore. 

[Einheri]

1 hour ago, Nine of twelve said:

OK, name his replacement.

Could have picked up La Tortuga about a week ago.

[bean5302]

Not sure why there are people advocating sticking with Joe Ryan here. He gave up 5 hits and 2 walks in 4.0 innings. That's a 1.50 WHIP while allowing 3 runs (2 earned) so it's not like Ryan was pitching particularly well out there. In regard to Ryan's struggles lately, it's not surprising considering how out of whack his ERA vs. FIP and xFIP were at the start of the season. It's just regression to the mean and he hasn't gotten there yet. Ryan owns a sparkly 3.00 ERA vs. his 3.68 FIP and 4.58 xFIP right now. 

[wabene]

5 hours ago, SanoMustGo said:

I keep saying...losses like these will catch up to this team by the end of the season.

You also have twice said they were going to lose in the 6th inning of games they actually won. What if they win the division? Just go silent? 

[Vanimal46]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

I sure don't read much about the vaunted pitching pipeline(TM) anymore. 

It’s been very disappointing with the lack of progression in the pitching pipeline. During the preseason, TD had 10 pitchers in the top 20 list. Chase Petty traded for Sonny Gray, so 9 remain. Ryan, Duran, and Winder are the ones contributing and the rest are struggling or injured. Balazovic in particular has been an utter disaster this year. 

 

[howeda7]

5 hours ago, Nine of twelve said:

OK, name his replacement.

For now, Minaya is better than him. I'll take what he did last year over anything Pagan has done. 

[Aichiman]

What about Hamilton?  He's got a 1.something era in St. Paul's bullpen.  Why isn't he in the conversation?

[h2oface]

6 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Not sure why there are people advocating sticking with Joe Ryan here. He gave up 5 hits and 2 walks in 4.0 innings. That's a 1.50 WHIP while allowing 3 runs (2 earned) so it's not like Ryan was pitching particularly well out there. In regard to Ryan's struggles lately, it's not surprising considering how out of whack his ERA vs. FIP and xFIP were at the start of the season. It's just regression to the mean and he hasn't gotten there yet. Ryan owns a sparkly 3.00 ERA vs. his 3.68 FIP and 4.58 xFIP right now. 

Yes. But...... I like the guy's composure, and 85 pitches, 7 base runners, 8 with hitting Garcia, 2 earned on the walk dinger and a gift unearned on his own pick off attempt and double, but if he is a goer after 4 with only 85 pitches, he is the guy that I let go and see. I guess it could have been worse than a Pagan 5th, but I still see. Don't forget his COVID break, either. He got blasted. Physically. Maybe he was cooked anyway, and he was ready to sit. I don't know. It is hard to know who is calling the pitches, too, with the whole wrist electronics. I at least see, with the bullpen ready if I pull him after the first batter or two. I dread the pen getting 5 innings...... or 4...... or 3.........or................. you know? Give him a chance to be "the guy". Last push. 

There was some great offense out there today. From our guys, too. Seems a bit forgotten. These games must be ultra painful to the team.

[puckstopper1]

Some good post game news is that Kirilloff was reported as being OK after his scare.

https://www.cbssports.com/fantasy/baseball/news/twins-alex-kirilloff-ok-after-collision/

[Riverbrian]

12 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

 2 back end bullpen arms are needed at a minimum. 

I'm asking for 3 but you've always been more optimistic than I. ?

[Riverbrian]

12 hours ago, Monticore said:

Boston's pen is as wretched as ours and they're gonna be just one of the teams competing for likely the same arms at the deadline. The entire season pivots on the FO's competence and drive now.

I agree that Boston will be looking and I'll raise that to everybody in contention will be looking for bullpen arms. 

[big dog]

As frustrated as I am with yesterday, the Sox always have the potential for a big offensive day. They also have a bullpen that is much stronger than ours, with Hendricks back. Ryan did not look sharp. We fought hard, it could have worked, it didn't, and we took 2 out of 3 in their park.

I'll take it.

[William K Johnson]

Look at the bright side, by using Colome, sorry, Pagan in the fifth it gives us four at bats to overcome his giving up the lead.   When he does it in the eighth or ninth innings, we don't have enough opportunities to overcome his ineffectiveness.  Seriously, we have to find folks who can get people out in late innings.   I cannot think of another team whose bullpen is as ineffective as this one.

[Riverbrian]

It's never as simple as the things the Twins did wrong. Maybe the White Sox did some things right. 

Over on White Sox Daily. It's never as simple as the things the White Sox did wrong... Maybe the Twins did some things right.

The other team always has something to say in the equation of what happened but the other team is usually ignored as a possible X factor in the fans analysis of the aftermath. Apparently the Twins are masters of their fate. 

With that said. 

The opposing teams are doing a lot of things right against Pagan lately. ?

 

 

[bighat]

13 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Someone explain to me why

-Correa needed a day off. Again. I absolutely hate the Twins player usage. Hate it. And don't even try to tell me it keeps players healthy.

- Jeffers batted in the 10th. WHAT?

-I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on not throwing Duran for a 2 inning save, but

-why are we still struggling with the same names in the pen?

Great questions, all.

With Buxton on deck it was ridiculous to see Jeffers bat in the 10th. But honestly, if you can't count on a guy to bat in a tight spot, why is he on the team? Dude's hitting is horrific, I know we can cherry pick some xStats if we want but he's been really, really bad.

Pagan should be Pa-GONE. Don't let the door hit you. I really don't see the value in hanging on to dead arms.

Another game the Twins offense kept trying to win with late heroics, another game blown by the bullpen. The Twins are getting away with so much because the division is horrendous. This is a very average team in a year with some very bad teams in MLB.

[Whitey333]

Strange game from a consistently strange team.  We have had so many winnable games thrown away by our so- called bullpen and Rocco.  The only reason we are in first place is we play in a rotten division where no one can take control.  Overall I give the Twins credit for taking advantage of this but so many lost and blown opportunities this year. Baldellis stubbornness in sticking to his game plan game in and game out is frustrating.  This isn't the first time he's sat Correa and others for a day off and refused to budge when the game dictates situations.  My god they have Thursday off.  If Correa is that fragile he certainly does not belong on this team.  Same with Rocco.  I've said many times here and I still believe that Rocco and his managing style will be the ultimate downfall of this team.  If we make the playoffs I imagine Correa and Buxton will have scheduled days off.  Just a terrible manager.  

[stringer bell]

10 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

I’m not nearly as familiar with the minor league guys as some here. I would imagine if there’s nobody that can do better, that’s a pretty big indictment on our FO

One could argue for several of the relievers at St. Paul being better than Pagan. But the real problem with the Twins bullpen is that they need two relievers who are better than Jax and they are not to be found. The club needs to go outside the organization to acquire not one, but two quality relievers. 

[AceWrigley]

14 hours ago, USAFChief said:

-I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on not throwing Duran for a 2 inning save, but

 

 

 

Except . . . he only threw 9 pitches and we have a day off, why not use him  for 2 innings against the team you're probably fighting for the division title..

[tarheeltwinsfan]

The old Alka-Seltzer advertisements had a logo and a jingle which said: "Relief is just a swallow away." Falvey needs to "swallow" his pride/inactivity/stubbornness/ "whatever" ... and get some quality relief pitching immediately. The majority of the relief pitchers who the Twins currently have, are not getting the job done and it is demoralizing and costing victories, which are just as important in July as they will be in September. It is foolish to repeat ineffective actions. One definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. 

[umterp23]

Very good read this morning by the posters, not much I can add, did some during the game thread yesterday.  

Quick take summary from my Western PA seat (Pirates are awful) but they have a couple good arms in the pen would love to see in Twins bullpen

Rocco: can't manage this roster or any roster in key moments.  No gut feelings, way too analytical and just doesn't have any feel for the live game action and choices.

$34MM sitting on the bench with 2 days off coming in 5 days.  Why the bleepity bleep isn't he in the lineup starting yesterday, yet alone pitch hitting late.

Jeffers passed ball was bound to happen, not because he can't catch but Moran was about 6 inches left and right of strike zone and no where near hitting a target Jeffers showed him.  

Buxton took a day off at the plate even though he was in the game.  He misses Sano so much he is batting like him.  

Gordon on second base, Miranda walks and Urshela not called onto bunt.  I know we don't bunt but my goodness you put the pressure on the defense by bunting the damn ball to move guys over to 2nd and 3rd.  But let him swing away and you get what you get by swinging at a pitch in the dirt and way outside.  

 

[Cody Pirkl]

15 hours ago, Rosterman said:

First off, gotta trust your starter. They can go five and six innings. Please.

I think you're underestimating how terrible Joe Ryan looked. He was 89-90 from the start and I don't think he came close to hitting a spot all day. He was lucky he made it through 4 without the game being out of hand.

[Blyleven2011]

The FO got us into this bullpen mess ,,, NOW GET US OUT OF IT .... 

 

[Linus]

More sloppy baseball which I believe I have posted about 4 times in the last two weeks. I am not as critical of Rocco’s bullpen moves as most posters but the Twins play really sloppy baseball and ultimately that falls on the manager. 

[LA VIkes Fan]

14 hours ago, DocBauer said:

Crap happens. You can't win them all. Period. We are having a very good season and are in 1st place in our division and control our own destiny. These, and a solid rotation and a lot of good and good young players and pitchers are part of all of the good that is happening. And we won this series. So the sky isn't falling.

Again,  crap happens.

BUUUUT, there were some pretty bad things I saw in my 2 innings watched, and the box and just following the GameDay tracker when I could.

Ryan is good, only going to get better, but just didn't have it today. His strike percentage was good, and only allowed 2BB, but 85 pitches in 4 innings doesn't get it done. I'm going to have to assume some deep counts, despite the solid strike percentage, and a lot of foul balls. Only way you can have that many pitches in just 4 innings. He's been in the 90 and even 100 pitch range previously. I don't know the answer, but did he look "done" after 4? Or was he looking strong enough that maybe the Twins should have tried for a 5th inning? I have to guess after allowing 2 in the 4th he was just toast.

I am not upset at Jax for allowing a run. He's been a wonderful and unexpected surprise and maybe the 2nd best arm in the pen this year, despite being barely past rookie status and in his 1st year transitioning to the pen. I'm not even mad that Moran lost the game in the 10th. Disappointed, absolutely, but not angry. He's a talented young arm with a future who's looked pretty good so far, placed in a pressure situation against a team with some pretty good bats and it wasn't his day.

I sort of WANT to be mad at Megill as he's got a live arm and has some promise, but he should be about the 12th man in a proper pen plan and should be "breaking in" with the Twins as an extra/middle innings spot until he proves to be capable of something more.

Who AM I angry with? I'm angry with the FO...again who I like and mostly support for a myriad of different reasons...for not taking the 2022 pen more serious. They couldn't have predicted the injury to Alcala. They didn't know...how could anyone really...how fast and furious trades and the such were going to happen post-lockout? By the time they made the deal with SD, there really wasn't anyone left to sign. But they needed another arm BEFORE they traded Rogers. And that may be more agregious than the trade itself! Look, a year from now, we may be loving having Paddack and the young prospect who escapes my memory at the moment. Plus, who says a healthy and productive Paddack isn't a quality re-sign? And yet, I still wouldn't have made the deal. I would have kept Rogers, signed another arm I really liked, and hoped for a Rogers re-sign if he looked like he deserved it. Even with the trade of Rogers, how much different might the pen look, and different results, IF the FO HAD made that ONE good addition to go along with what is currently on hand?

And I'm ticked off that I'm beating an obviously dead horse for about the 7th time.

And I'm ticked off at Pagan. NOT as a person. I'm sure he's probably a really good guy. But as a PERFORMER, I'm disappointed and upset. Despite a high velocity FB and a new splitter that seem OK, he just can't deliver. Period. He's not an inexperienced rookie just adapting and feeling his way. And I understand injuries and lack of arms is impacting Rocco and decision making. And while other guys have garnered 3 or 4 losses over the past couple of weeks, it has been his veteran, experienced arm that has directly and only somewhat indirectly lead to at least 5 losses in games in which the starters and batters have done about all they could do. (As well as some good pen performances). The Twins lead in the Central is a solid 4.5 games. But it could easily be 10-12 games right now without some huge meltdowns. This also affects end of the season numbers that could influence playoff positioning.

Do I dismiss the FO for the W-L record and Central lead being better due to mistakes made? Absolutely not! But sometimes you have to look at an individual performer in any career situation and just realize this individual just doesn't do the job. And sorry, that's Pagan. He just shouldn't be a Twin any longer. Literally, almost any young arm brought up by the Twins could pitch as bad as he's been, and hopefully better. It's just time.

As far as Rocco...who I also generally support and believe in for a number of reasons...I understand Correa had today off. And I understand that Thursday is a day off and arguements could be made he should play no matter what with that in mind. Not sure I agree, but I understand the frustration. It's a long season and he's pretty much been an iron man when healthy. So give him the day off! But he can't pitch hit in a crucial situation and just play an inning or two with Thursday off???

I FULLY 100% SUPPORT BEING CAREFUL WITH DURAN AFTER LIMITED IP IN 2021! Did I announce that loud enough? LOL. And I want him to continue to grow and develop and keep his arm fresh for the entire season and a playoff run. But 20 pitches Monday, off Tuesday, only 9 pitches today and an off day Thursday? Twins probably win today if Duran gets another IP

Good year. Sky is not falling. Our destiny is in our hands. FO has to make a couple good moves. 

 

Agreed. I know Pagan has more than five years in the majors so he can’t be sent out without his consent even though he has one option remaining.  Still, is there any chance he would be willing to go down to AAA now to try to figure out his issues? Frankly, at this point, either Minaya or Cano would provide more value in the middle innings. And does anyone you know when Alcalá will be back? We all agree that this bullpen needs a minimum of two more arms and it will be difficult to get much now without a significant overpay. At least if we can get him down there working on things for the next month while we have someone a little more reliable we can try to maintain for the next month. There isn’t anyone likely riding to the rescue for at least 30 days.

[twinssporto]

14 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

I find it hard to believe that there isn’t anyone at AAA, heck even AA that could be tried out. What does St. Paul do for a bullpen? No one can come up and help? It gets to a point where it simply can’t get much worse than what we have currently. 

Totally agree! I've been saying this for months now. There has to be an arm or two we could bring up and see what happens. Can't be any worse....