Celestino

[jorgenswest]

I think the Twins should consider sending Celestino to AAA and recalling Contreras.

The upcoming schedule has two series against the White Sox. The White Sox have a right handed starting rotation and their main lefty out of the pen is injured. I think they have one lefty on the 26.

Celestino could benefit from getting swings every day.

Overall I think Celestino helps more but in this stretch with the White Sox, more days off and the all star break it might benefit him more to get every day at bats and it wouldn’t hurt the Twins to have another left handed bat on the bench.

[Rosterman]

Interesting logic. It wouldn't hurt either player. I still don't see the need for Gordon to be playing so much outfield when you have both Garlick and Celestino on the roster, and Kirilloff taken outs in left field when Arraez plays first. Plus, the Twins have to keep working Miranda into the mix.

I would do it!

[tony&rodney]

Celestino has been playing better and better in the field. I would keep him.

[stringer bell]

34 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

Celestino has been playing better and better in the field. I would keep him.

He’s not hitting much. Gordon has definitely been the better offensive backup outfielder. 

[Nine of twelve]

Looking to 2023 and beyond, I think our four outfielders should be Buxton, Celestino, and two of Kepler, Kirilloff, and Larnach. Two RHB, two LHB, and two or three (counting Kepler) capable of playing center field. Obviously there could be repercussions from other roster moves, for example if Kirilloff winds up playing extensively at first base, but I think this group would do well for us. Regarding Celestino in particular, playing AAA for the rest of this season may be what's best for him if we want him playing 3 of every 4 games next season.

[bighat]

11 hours ago, Rosterman said:

Interesting logic. It wouldn't hurt either player. I still don't see the need for Gordon to be playing so much outfield when you have both Garlick and Celestino on the roster.

I think at this point Gordon has clearly outplayed Celestino. Gilberto's seems to be nothing but a bloop singles hitter - at best. In fact we seem to have already seen his ceiling.

His xSLG % is the lowest on the team (.323) and he's also last in the team in Exit Velocity (86.0) and Average Distance (133). It should be pretty clear by now that he was getting incredibly lucky early in the season. 

I'm starting to think that the Twins would be better off rotating Gordon and/or Kepler around CF when Buxton's sitting, and just put Celestino down in STP and only bring him back as an injury sub if needed.

[stringer bell]

34 minutes ago, bighat said:

I think at this point Gordon has clearly outplayed Celestino. Gilberto's seems to be nothing but a bloop singles hitter - at best. In fact we seem to have already seen his ceiling.

His xSLG % is the lowest on the team (.323) and he's also last in the team in Exit Velocity (86.0) and Average Distance (133). It should be pretty clear by now that he was getting incredibly lucky early in the season. 

I'm starting to think that the Twins would be better off rotating Gordon and/or Kepler around CF when Buxton's sitting, and just put Celestino down in STP and only bring him back as an injury sub if needed.

Pretty much agree. However per BBRef, Celestino has played an excellent center field so far this year (yesterday’s bobble notwithstanding). If one position player would have to be taken off the roster right now, I think he is the guy. That could happen when Sanó is ready to play or if a third catcher was needed (I think they have been on the brink there for a couple of days). 

[High heat]

With the Buxton knee injury that flares up and can be out or DH restricted for days you need Celestino.  Gordon is your swiss army knife and is used as such.  He continues to provide middle infield insurance as well as OF depth.  No thanks Mark Contreras. 

[Trov]

1 hour ago, bighat said:

I think at this point Gordon has clearly outplayed Celestino. Gilberto's seems to be nothing but a bloop singles hitter - at best. In fact we seem to have already seen his ceiling.

His xSLG % is the lowest on the team (.323) and he's also last in the team in Exit Velocity (86.0) and Average Distance (133). It should be pretty clear by now that he was getting incredibly lucky early in the season. 

I'm starting to think that the Twins would be better off rotating Gordon and/or Kepler around CF when Buxton's sitting, and just put Celestino down in STP and only bring him back as an injury sub if needed.

You think Celestino has hit his ceiling at 23?  I agree Celestino needs to improve, but he is still only 23, most players his age are in AA or AAA.  Most guys do not peak until age 27.  Some sooner, some later.  Either way he still has a few years to grow.  Maybe he has "peaked" for this year but as a career he has far from peaked. 

[jorgenswest]

I believe in Celestino. I believe he is more valuable than Contreras.

I simply think he can benefit from a stay in AAA through the all star break. It comes at a time where they face the right handed heavy White Sox twice.

[prouster]

Celestino has so far put up a 103 ops+. Not world beating by any means, but perfectly fine for a fourth outfielder who plays very good defense. I don’t understand why you send a guy like that to the minors. 

[wabene]

Being only 23 it is quite possible he gets stronger and adds power to his game. From 2018-21 he was slugging over 400 in the minors peaking at 423 in 2021.

[bighat]

1 hour ago, Trov said:

You think Celestino has hit his ceiling at 23?  I agree Celestino needs to improve, but he is still only 23, most players his age are in AA or AAA.  Most guys do not peak until age 27.  Some sooner, some later.  Either way he still has a few years to grow.  Maybe he has "peaked" for this year but as a career he has far from peaked. 

He's 23, not 13. He's the same age as Ronald Acuna.

[Nine of twelve]

26 minutes ago, bighat said:

He's 23, not 13. He's the same age as Ronald Acuna.

Of course you can always cherry pick to find outliers, and you could hardly find a more atypical player than Acuna. Reaching the majors at age 20 like he did is really, really rare. Here's another player to consider: Whit Merrifield. He's also a very good player, but he didn't reach the majors until age 27 and didn't really come into his own for another year after that. Obviously he's an outlier as well, but based on how the vast majority of players develop it's almost certain that Celestino's play will improve over the course of the next few years.

[bighat]

49 minutes ago, Nine of twelve said:

Of course you can always cherry pick to find outliers, and you could hardly find a more atypical player than Acuna. Reaching the majors at age 20 like he did is really, really rare. Here's another player to consider: Whit Merrifield. He's also a very good player, but he didn't reach the majors until age 27 and didn't really come into his own for another year after that. Obviously he's an outlier as well, but based on how the vast majority of players develop it's almost certain that Celestino's play will improve over the course of the next few years.

Acuna's a rare case. How rare, exactly?

After all, here in 2022 alone we have Bobby Witt Jr., Wander Franco, Julio Rodriguez, Spencer Torkelson, Hunter Greene, and Reid Detmers (he of the no-hitter) appearing on various leaderboards all over MLB. They're all under the age of 22 - so it seems guys like this aren't rare at all.

Good young players DO exist. Why is it so wrong for Twins fans to hope that one of our prospects is on that list?

 

[Danchat]

It's nice to have Celestino in CF rather than other options like Kepler/Cave/the other guys we trotted out in 2022. Defensively he's a great option, also better than Gordon. He is slumping at the plate and has zero power, but if he can maintain his .350 OBP, he's a fine to put in the back third of the lineup. I do like Contreras and while he does have more pop in his bat, he's more of a good corner OF like Kepler and he's not going to get on base as much. 

[ashbury]

1 hour ago, bighat said:

Good young players DO exist. Why is it so wrong for Twins fans to hope that one of our prospects is on that list?

Naming half a dozen fine young players has nothing to do with the assertion that you know a guy's ceiling once he's 23.  We don't know those half a dozen other players' ceilings either.

Doesn't look like Celestino will ever be a franchise player.  Is that the straw man you are trying to argue against? 

If you want to send him to AAA for further development/seasoning, fine, so would I.  Except his glove seems needed to cover CF.  If you're fine with Gordon out there, I'm not, but it's a reasonably close decision, since Gilberto makes his share of mistakes out there at present.

Sure, if we grant that he's a bloop hitter this year, so was Kirby Puckett at age 24 and basically the same at age 25 too.  Kirby was something of a unicorn of course.  I just think it's going too far to say we know Celestino's ceiling.  It's very possible he's a starting CF for a pennant winning team someday.  I'd say I hope it's ours, except that means Buxton would be absent for some unfathomable reason.

[bighat]

2 minutes ago, ashbury said:

Naming half a dozen fine young players has nothing to do with the assertion that you know a guy's ceiling once he's 23.  We don't know those half a dozen other players' ceilings either.

Doesn't look like Celestino will ever be a franchise player.  Is that the straw man you are trying to argue against? 

If you want to send him to AAA for further development/seasoning, fine, so would I.  Except his glove seems needed to cover CF.  If you're fine with Gordon out there, I'm not, but it's a reasonably close decision, since Gilberto makes his share of mistakes out there at present.

Sure, if we grant that he's a bloop hitter this year, so was Kirby Puckett at age 24 and basically the same at age 25 too.  Kirby was something of a unicorn of course.  I just think it's going to far to say we know Celestino's ceiling.  It's very possible he's a starting CF for a pennant winning team someday.

Thanks for simplifying things - yes, I'm saying that Gordon (IMO) is quite sufficient in CF and his bat more than makes up for what I consider a very small difference on D.

What prompted my unhinged rant was that Twins fans are so quick to defend Larnach, Kirilloff, and Celestino with the "but they're young" defense and it's just getting a little old. It's such an easy out. Guy stinks? He's young! All of his expanded stats look horrific? He's young! Etc, etc, etc. My response to that tired mantra is that there are many young players out there who are mashing and playing elite defense. I guess it kind of went off track though.

So yeah, back to the argument: Gordon's better, keep him here and let him play more, even against lefties, and send Celestino down for more seasoning. That's my take.

[ashbury]

8 hours ago, bighat said:

What prompted my unhinged rant

Such candor is disarming.

Much nicer to converse with, than the cliche of someone finding that one hill they want to die on.  A pleasure to walk you back down from that hill.   And perhaps you'll return the favor sometime.

[prouster]

53 minutes ago, bighat said:

Twins fans are so quick to defend Larnach, Kirilloff, and Celestino with the "but they're young" defense and it's just getting a little old. It's such an easy out. Guy stinks? He's young! All of his expanded stats look horrific? He's young! Etc, etc, etc. My response to that tired mantra is that there are many young players out there who are mashing and playing elite defense. I guess it kind of went off track though.

FWIW, my defense of Celestino is just that I think he’s a pretty good ball player who fills a need on the roster. He and Gordon have shown about the same offensively, but Celestino’s defense is pretty clearly better. Plus he’s three years younger . 
 

He’s never gonna be an elite player, but I think he does the job he’s asked to do quite well.

[Old fox]

Celestino has always been lite with the bat but strong glove. If you don’t want him in the outfield in the mlb and not atAAA. Then maybe it’s time to find out much he worth and trade him for relief or starting pitcher.  I have become a fan of Gordon the switch blade and value him over Celestino. 

[Nine of twelve]

3 hours ago, bighat said:

 

Good young players DO exist. Why is it so wrong for Twins fans to hope that one of our prospects is on that list?

 

Of course they exist. And I think everyone on this site hopes that every player the Twins draft develops into a top-level player very quickly. But as others have said, that's not reality. I personally think that the improvement Celestino has shown since last year, when the team was forced to put him into a situation in which he was overmatched, bodes well for his future.

[rv78]

I like both Celestino and Gordon and prefer they stay in their current roles on the team, as backups. That is until we get a spot open in the outfield which I'm hoping will be sooner rather that later in RF. I've seen enough of Kepler and his pull happy, try to hit a HR swing, everytime up. Pretty sure both Gordon and Celestino can play defense in RF just as good as Kepler with some extended time there learning, and both seem able to get base hits more often than Kepler ever did or ever will. I'd be willing to sacrifice a little power for a few more clutch hits that keep an inning going over Keplers usual ground out to the right side of the diamond. Hope next year we see, Larnach, Buxton and Celestino in the outfield with Gordon being the super utility guy. Sano will be gone thank goodness, with Kirilloff at 1st base, not in the outfield, with Arraez and Miranda filling in as needed. This team needs to continue to turn the page on the veterans that just don't hit for a decent average. Give the youngsters a chance.

[mrtwinsfan]

[SwainZag]

21 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

I think the Twins should consider sending Celestino to AAA and recalling Contreras.

The upcoming schedule has two series against the White Sox. The White Sox have a right handed starting rotation and their main lefty out of the pen is injured. I think they have one lefty on the 26.

Celestino could benefit from getting swings every day.

Overall I think Celestino helps more but in this stretch with the White Sox, more days off and the all star break it might benefit him more to get every day at bats and it wouldn’t hurt the Twins to have another left handed bat on the bench.

I would be okay with sendin Celestino down if the Twins acquired a more offensive minded OF.  I don't think a swap with Contreras really changes much.  With Gordon out of options filling a bigger role than Celestino (playing in the IF if needed) Celestino would be the odd man out at the moment if another OF was brought in, IMO.  

[Tim]

8 hours ago, bighat said:

He's 23, not 13. He's the same age as Ronald Acuna.

this can't be a serious take haha

[RpR]

Send Kirilloff to St. Paul keep Celestino, Kirilloff is very bad against left handed pitchers.

[bean5302]

All our outfielders are washed up. Mike Trout was an All Star at age 20. Anybody over age 20 without an All Star appearance is trash because they're past their peak.

[bean5302]

Seriously, though. I continue to see Celestino as potential late 20s Denard Span. Not otherworldly, but potentially much better than he gets credit for. Celestino isn't close to 200 plate appearances this year.

Gordon's doing everything he can to prove doubters wrong, showing off some unexpected levels of pop lately. I like Gordon's underdog factor a lot and I don't like how he was written off without what seemed like an opportunity.

That said, about two weeks ago on June 15th...
Celestino .330/.395/.379 OPS .773
Gordon .254/.296/.366 OPS .661

[Riverbrian]

What you suggest is great thinking.

If Celestino is only going to be utilized against a left hander that isn't showing up. 

Yes... Send him to St. Paul please. 

 

However... there is no reason that Celestino can't get into the lineup against right handers from time to time.

Not one OF is playing like a player that should prevent others from playing. Buxton with his power should play every day but he's not because of his injury. 

Plenty of playing time for Celestino.