Eduardo Escobar Should Start at Short

[ashbury]

Arguing that one guy is significantly better than the other

 

They are who we have right now. You can discuss something else, in a different thread than one with Escobar's name in the title, if you want.

[kab21]

They are who we have right now. You can discuss something else, in a different thread than one with Escobar's name in the title, if you want.

 

The main argument for Escobar is that he's a whopping 2 yrs younger and that allows for more potential projection for his hitting. I disagree. When you OPS .650 throughout a MiLB career there isn't any additional projection of hitting better than someone that did the same but was two years older. If he had been showing some gradual improvement along the way then perhaps but that's not true either.

[ashbury]

When you OPS .650 throughout a MiLB career there isn't any additional projection of hitting better than someone that did the same but was two years older.

 

You're right. Hitters improve after age 25, when Florimon hit AAA, just as much as after age 22, which is when Escobar was putting up those numbers in AAA.

[Aaron Cross]

I'll go with Escobar too. Ryan sure took some grief for the Liriano trade, but it's looking better everyday.

[Brock Beauchamp]

The main argument for Escobar is that he's a whopping 2 yrs younger and that allows for more potential projection for his hitting. I disagree. When you OPS .650 throughout a MiLB career there isn't any additional projection of hitting better than someone that did the same but was two years older. If he had been showing some gradual improvement along the way then perhaps but that's not true either.

 

1. Most people have said they expect very little from either player.

 

2. There IS a difference between OPSing .650 at AA as a 24 year old and OPSing .650 at AA as a 21 year old.

[Otto von Ballpark]

If Escobar is a better player (and I'm not saying he is, I don't know), then he should be starting over Florimon. Putting a better player into a bench role because he's "more versatile" is just plain wrong.

I understand your point, but the magnitude of the difference also matters. I would guess that even folks who prefer Escobar would have to admit the difference is pretty darn slight right now. Might as well leave the exclusive SS at SS, and the more versatile one as the primary utility man for now.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I already said I want Escobar starting, what do you want from me Brock :-)

 

An "Eduardo Escobar Best Friends Forever" tattoo across your back.

[Otto von Ballpark]

2. There IS a difference between OPSing .650 at AA as a 24 year old and OPSing .650 at AA as a 21 year old.

Actually, Florimon OPSed .740 at AA as a 24 year old, versus Escobar's .670 OPS at AA as a 21 year old (and their league OPSes were roughly the same). That complicates the equation a bit.

 

Also as a 21 year old, Escobar OPSed .730 at high-A. The year before, Florimon OPSed .760 in the same league at age 22.

 

Interesting that Florimon was an epically awful hitter at ages 20-21 at low-A. Given that, it's kind of impressive that he's become as good of a hitter as he has.

 

Defense is really what's going to determine their respective careers, but it will be interesting if their offensive profiles diverge much at the MLB level. As I mentioned before, Florimon seems to have a slight edge in plate discipline right now, which could help keep his offense at the minimal acceptable level for MLB.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Actually, Florimon OPSed .740 at AA as a 24 year old, versus Escobar's .670 OPS at AA as a 21 year old (and their league OPSes were roughly the same). That complicates the equation a bit.

 

Also as a 21 year old, Escobar OPSed .730 at high-A. The year before, Florimon OPSed .760 in the same league at age 22.

 

Interesting that Florimon was an epically awful hitter at ages 20-21 at low-A. Given that, it's kind of impressive that he's become as good of a hitter as he has.

 

Defense is really what's going to determine their respective careers, but it will be interesting if their offensive profiles diverge much at the MLB level. As I mentioned before, Florimon seems to have a slight edge in plate discipline right now, which could help keep his offense at the minimal acceptable level for MLB.

 

Ah, fair points. I was looking at Florimon's aggregate 2012 numbers and not his individual line at AA the previous year (I still find it odd that BB-Ref lists aggregate numbers BEFORE their individual numbers).

[Nick Nelson]

To me, Escobar has looked like the better defender thus far, and that's a lot more meaningful to me than their inflated early hitting lines. With a pitching staff that will create plenty of GB opportunities, I'll take the sure-handed guy who you can trust to convert anything hit in his area. I don't necesarily think it's time to cut bait on Florimon yet (though I'd start feeding Escobar semi-regular starts, as Gardy is doing) but I also think the leash should be very, very short. He's done nothing to earn a long one.

[Brock Beauchamp]

To me, Escobar has looked like the better defender thus far, and that's a lot more meaningful to me than their inflated early hitting lines. With a pitching staff that will create plenty of GB opportunities, I'll take the sure-handed guy who you can trust to convert anything hit in his area. I don't necesarily think it's time to cut bait on Florimon yet (though I'd start feeding Escobar semi-regular starts, as Gardy is doing) but I also think the leash should be very, very short. He's done nothing to earn a long one.

 

This is pretty much how I feel. Escobar isn't flashy but he doesn't seem prone to blundering easy plays, either.

 

When we get right down to the point, I'm not sure I care who starts. I haven't seen enough from either player to get too riled up about it but I am leaning slightly in favor of Escobar.

[ThePuck]

An "Eduardo Escobar Best Friends Forever" tattoo across your back.

 

You don't think two of those would be too much? :-)

[Guest USAFChief]

I understand your point, but the magnitude of the difference also matters.

No, it really doesn't. It's not about "magnitude." A) If something is correct, you do it, no matter if the gain is small; and big league baseball is all about small differences, over time. Would you argue that if two players are identical, except one will post an OBP 5% higher, that it doesn't matter which one plays because the "magnitude" of the difference isn't big? Again, I really don't know if Escobar is the better player or not (I tend to think neither will be long term MLB starters), but you said you thought he was a better player. If you think that, then I believe you should be arguing for him being the starter, as the better player should always be the starter. Always.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I'm now firmly in the Escobar camp. I was at the game and good god, Florimon was awful. Dumb play after dumb play followed by a dumb at-bat. Brutal.

 

I'm not one to put too much stock into one game but this game was too frustrating to ignore, especially when a similarly-skilled Escobar is sitting on the bench and doesn't seem nearly as prone to bone-headed plays out in the field (and made a hell of a nice play in the 8th inning to boot).

[jorgenswest]

Escobar had the better fielding reputation as a prospect.

 

They really do need to play out Florimon. He isn't useful as a utility player with no experience at other positions. Once they determine he isn't the answer as a starter, they can designate him for assignment.

 

Escobar will struggle with he bat, but is young enough to get better. His poor numbers in the minors were in the context of being among the younger at his level. That doesn't mean he is a good hitter. It just offers more hope that he can be adequate. I'd rather suffer through growing pains with Escobar.

[big dog]

Yeah, I posted something in another thread defending giving Florimon an extended look. I'm no longer interested. Let him learn how to catch the ball in AAA for a while, then decide whether or not to keep him in the system. Last night was brutal.

[Boom Boom]

I'm wondering where Florimon got his "defensive wizard" reputation to begin with. He's got great range and arm but I've seen far too many Casilla-like concentration lapses from him, and he definitely doesn't have the bat to compensate.

 

I'm not real bullish on Escobar either but it's time to give him his opportunity to start.

[Guest USAFChief]

Escobar had the better fielding reputation as a prospect.

 

They really do need to play out Florimon. He isn't useful as a utility player with no experience at other positions. Once they determine he isn't the answer as a starter, they can designate him for assignment.

 

Escobar will struggle with he bat, but is young enough to get better. His poor numbers in the minors were in the context of being among the younger at his level. That doesn't mean he is a good hitter. It just offers more hope that he can be adequate. I'd rather suffer through growing pains with Escobar.

Florimon's "usefulness as a utility player" hasn't been determined, nor should it factor into the discussion. Worry about finding a starting SS, then worry about finding a futility infielder, which are relatively easy to find, and not worth losing sleep over compared to finding a full time major league SS.

[Mike Sixel]

Just pick one, and give him 5 of every 7 starts.....

[TheLeviathan]

I for one am now officially done watching Florimon. The guy just does not look like a big league fielder. At any point he is going to have some bizarre mishap on something perfectly catchable. I'll take less flash (as RB correctly labeled) and range for some god damn consistency.

[ThePuck]

I'm wondering where Florimon got his "defensive wizard" reputation to begin with. He's got great range and arm but I've seen far too many Casilla-like concentration lapses from him

 

Plus, he's always been an error machine...and while I'm not a huge fan of judging fielders by errors and fielding %, his totals in the minors are hard to ignore.

[cmathewson]

After last night, I flipped my switch on Florimon. He wasn't charged with any errors, but I would have given him two. One for his dumb insistence on going to second with two outs when he had the sure out at first. The other on a ball hit right at him that got under his glove.

 

Meanwhile, after pinch running for Rivera, Escobar made a play that I have not seen since Greg Gagne. On a hard-hit ball up the middle, he ranged behind the bag to snare it, wheeled and fired to get the fast runner at first. It was an awesome play.

 

Count me among those who think he should be starting.

[jimbo92107]

My biggest concern is whether Eduardo's got a permit for his GUN?! I wouldn't want his arm to become a legal issue. Florimon's sling shot probably isn't an issue.

 

Agreed that Escobar's got a gun for an arm. However, a few games ago I saw Pedro Florimon uncork one of the hardest throws I've ever seen. It was on the line drive grounder at Plouffe, which skipped off his glove and bounced high in the air. Florimon alertly circled under it, then caught and fired an absolute BB to Morneau. That ball must have been going over 100mph.

[jimbo92107]

I agree with comments praising Eduardo Escobar's fielding talents and his clutch hitting. If there's any reason not to move him permanent SS, it's his own versatility. Escobar appears to be the best super-sub utility man the Twins have had in quite awhile. I saw him field a carom off the left field sideline like a seasoned vet, then throw a frozen rope to second base. I've heard him mentioned as an emergency catcher. Is there any position he can't play?

[Jim H]

I think I would give Florimon more time. He has the best tools/skills. I saw some of the same bonehead plays with Bartlett when he was here. The range and arm really matter at short, if there is some hope that the consistency can happen, as it did with other late maturing shortstops(like Bartlett) then give him some more time. Escobar isn't going anywhere, Gardy isn't burying him on the bench. I doubt that it matters too much right now if Escobar stays at utility man for awhile. If he deserves to start over Florimon, that decision will be made, eventually.

[Joe A. Preusser]

With his + glove at several positions, shouldn't we be looking at Escobar as the long term replacement for Jaime Carroll?

[Brock Beauchamp]

With his + glove at several positions, shouldn't we be looking at Escobar as the long term replacement for Jaime Carroll?

 

Not if he's the best shortstop on the roster, which it appears he might be.

[ashbury]

Is there any position he can't play?

 

Shortstop. Florimon's there.

[glunn]

Shortstop. Florimon's there.

 

John, your avatars seem to keep getting younger.

[Joe A. Preusser]

Not if he's the best shortstop on the roster, which it appears he might be.

 

Yeah, I guess there's nothing wrong with letting Escobar start for even a couple years and then be relegated to bench duty once we have our long term solution in place. He might not like it, however.