Guardians 5, Twins 3: We've Seen This Ending Before

[wsnydes]

1 hour ago, darwin22 said:

And just because I feel like kicking myself for being a lifelong Minnesota Twins and Vikings fan---lets not forget the following:

1.  1984 late season collapse against CLE blowing a 10-1 (close to that lead) to lose on a Jamie Quirk homerun.  Yes, that was the infamous doing of RD.   

2.  18 consecutive playoff losses by Twins.

3.   The Herschel Walker trade

4.  Gary Anderson's missed 38 yd chip shot FG in the NFC Championship in 1998 that would've given the Vikes a 10 pt lead with just over 2 minutes to play.

5.  Favre's--omg horrible INT late in the Saints playoff game that was lost in OT.

Many others I've not mentioned, but yes, being a Minnesota fan is nothing more than the inevitable crushing of your soul.

 

 

Haven't we suffered enough this week?  

[Mike Sixel]

35 minutes ago, h2oface said:

Naaa. It is never how the game is managed, your are unreally correct.

As bad as our bullpen is, and it is horrible, I think we are not Oakland, and there is a bit more accountability, but you can have it your way. Baldelli is not responsible for his choices and timing et al during the game. All on the FO. Every bit of it. 

I never said that.  I would like people to acknowledge he isn't awful, given his options.  The hate for him on this site is over the top ridiculous.  I bet the over under on deleted posts about him is astronomical.  

[Mike Sixel]

41 minutes ago, h2oface said:

Naaa. It is never how the game is managed, your are unreally correct.

As bad as our bullpen is, and it is horrible, I think we are not Oakland, and there is a bit more accountability, but you can have it your way. Baldelli is not responsible for his choices and timing et al during the game. All on the FO. Every bit of it. 

You are the one that said once the game starts, it is on the manager. I must have misunderstood what that meant, if not the skill of the players doesn't matter.

[adorduan]

This is just insane.The front office fiddles while the bullpen burns. Maybe last year could be excused because of injuries/being out of the race by may. But there is no excuse for this year. If they do nothing it, and soon, it should be a fireable offense. They have tradeable assets, get it done.

[mikelink45]

Not sure what the response is - one thing that we found out is why they have not used Thornburg - DFA?

Who is next?  With Thornburg going so bad wasn't there another arm we could have tried?

Archer needs to go to the pen. 4 Innings is not a SP! But he is a good long reliever.  

[Doctor Gast]

Again I don't understand why they sent Winder down, We need  good long relief to hand it over to Duran or to finish off the game.

I wish Archer would have heard Gray talked about his success over CLE was not trying to SO them. If he would have done that and throw strikes he would have done a lot better, Again Archer needs to throw his change up for strike outs not to set up his other pitches because he gets a lot more KS strikes KL strikes when he throws it.

[D.C Twins]

I did NOT see this com..... oh wait a minute... I TOTALLY saw this coming!

[jkcarew]

3 hours ago, wsnydes said:

Correct.  Every team blows leads. 

In the end, I still don't think Cleveland's run will be sustained, but they can certainly do some damage while they're on it.

Run? Gifted epic back-to-back meltdowns by the opposition’s bullpen, Cleveland is now 4-6 in their last ten. I think they can, and will, sustain that. I know the bar for ‘run’ is low in this division, but I think Chicago remains the most likely team to eventually blow by the Twins if the Twins remained stuck in this two steps forward, two steps back thing. More than half the season yet to play.

[DocBauer]

I'm late, so anything I post is probably on deaf and frustrated ears. But it will make me feel better to vent a bit, lol.

I liked Thielbar and still do. Three bad games have skewed his ERA and impressions, but he's been good otherwise. I had real hopes that Alcala, Duran, and Jax would help and maybe turn in to something good. I wasn't sure Moran was ready, but was crossing fingers foe him come the second hald. Two have done great, one is out, and we can only hope he will make a difference before the year is out, and Moran has actually pitched better for the Twins than the Saints.

Having Minaya and Coulombe back on milb deals was gravy and depth.

So I had hopes. But what was really needed was another quality, proven, dependable arm to join Rogers. They didn't get one, and then traded Rogers. And I fully understand the "value" of the trade, but still wouldn't have done it. The sacrifice for 2022 was too great.

As someone who generally supports the FO, I believe they blew the assembly of the pen for this year.

As to Rocco, he's a bit hamstrung by what he has. But I can argue his usage. Against Cleveland on Wednesday, despite it being a close game, I would have used Pagan before Jax. I understand "what if he stinks and the game gets away from us"? But I would have used him in a lower level situation and trust my lineup to do what they did. It would have saved Jax and Duran for an inning later. The same principal applies to the two blown games last week. Hope someone like Pagan can hold it together in a middle inning with less pressure. I know that's not always the right way to approach things, but with the pen the way it is right now, it's the way I would have gone.

I think Winder's up in the next couple of days. I hope Megill is back, because at least he was looking decent. 

Thornburg is nothing special. But he's got experience and has had a decent career. He's pitched OK in his brief Twins tenure. But to sit him for a week and not let him pitch...letting Pagan implode over and over again in high pressure situations....I'm not sure what anyone could/should expect after he had to pick splinters out of his backside. And if you distrust him that much, then why is on the roster vs IDK...anyone else?

Blows my mind to think a couple of OK journeymen in Minaya and a healthy Coulombe in the pen these past 7-8 days might have given us another 2-5 wins. (Heavy sigh)

[SanoMustGo]

Yeah, but the bullpen has gotten worse and worse as the season goes on.  If something doesn't change, this team will not be in contention by September.  There is NO WAY the Twins will stay in this with this bullpen.

[SanoMustGo]

12 minutes ago, jkcarew said:

Run? Gifted epic back-to-back meltdowns by the opposition’s bullpen, Cleveland is now 4-6 in their last ten. I think they can, and will, sustain that. I know the bar for ‘run’ is low in this division, but I think Chicago remains the most likely team to eventually blow by the Twins if the Twins remained stuck in this two steps forward, two steps back thing. More than half the season yet to play.

all 5 losses against Cle in this stretch have been total choke jobs by the bullpen.  How do you get those losses back?  A few more losses like these, and we'll fully understand the impact at the end of the season.

[SwainZag]

29 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

Again I don't understand why they sent Winder down, We need  good long relief to hand it over to Duran or to finish off the game.

I wish Archer would have heard Gray talked about his success over CLE was not trying to SO them. If he would have done that and throw strikes he would have done a lot better, Again Archer needs to throw his change up for strike outs not to set up his other pitches because he gets a lot more KS strikes KL strikes when he throws it.

Winder got lit up by Oakland on May 17th, went on the IL on the 21st.   He started his rehab assignment on June 9th.  He had 3 short starts before being called up to pitch the 2nd game of the DH yesterday.   

[wsnydes]

10 minutes ago, jkcarew said:

Run? Gifted epic back-to-back meltdowns by the opposition’s bullpen, Cleveland is now 4-6 in their last ten. I think they can, and will, sustain that. I know the bar for ‘run’ is low in this division, but I think Chicago remains the most likely team to eventually blow by the Twins if the Twins remained stuck in this two steps forward, two steps back thing. More than half the season yet to play.

They went 17-10 in June.  That's a run, especially when the twins went 13-14 in the same stretch.  

I agree that Chicago is a threat, but they've got quite a bit of work to do.

[jkcarew]

Part of the puzzle has to be getting more innings from starters. Averaging a shade more than 4.2 per start. Even for this ridiculous era, that’s low. Right now, Rocco and the FO are pretending that you can protect your starters and hide bullpen arms at the same time. No, you can’t. Maybe for a game or two, or a series. But not over the coarse of a month, let alone a full season.

[rv78]

Reclamation projects very seldom if ever pay off, yet that is the Twins way. Funny how the FO saw the need to trade away their best reliever in Rogers for 2 pitchers that they didn't really need. Pagan definitely wasn't going to be better than Rogers and why did they think they needed Paddock? They already had Ober, Ryan, Bundy, and Archer with Smeltzer giving them a perfect spring and Winder showing he was ready also. That's 6 starters, no need to trade your best reliever for another one and definitely not for one that had health issues that, yes, they knew about. Should go down as one of the worst trades in Twins history. Thanks, to the ineptness of Falvine we have guys like Cotton, Pagan, and Thornburg, all cut from the same mold as Colome and Shoemaker, trying to get outs when it matters.

[Mike Sixel]

5 minutes ago, rv78 said:

Reclamation projects very seldom if ever pay off, yet that is the Twins way. Funny how the FO saw the need to trade away their best reliever in Rogers for 2 pitchers that they didn't really need. Pagan definitely wasn't going to be better than Rogers and why did they think they needed Paddock? They already had Ober, Ryan, Bundy, and Archer with Smeltzer giving them a perfect spring and Winder showing he was ready also. That's 6 starters, no need to trade your best reliever for another one and definitely not for one that had health issues that, yes, they knew about. Should go down as one of the worst trades in Twins history. Thanks, to the ineptness of Falvine we have guys like Cotton, Pagan, and Thornburg, all cut from the same mold as Colome and Shoemaker, trying to get outs when it matters.

Maybe they weren't sure archer and bundy, as reclamation projects, would work out.... since they never do.  

Inept? Two division titles, a starting staff they acquired, and leading the division.... your standards are high.  

[silverslugger]

It's days like today and weeks like this week that I thank my lucky stars that Sinclair/Bally Sports North/THE Minnesota Twins/AND MLB have completely screwed me out of being able to watch this horrendous mess on TV.  I used to watch the Twins quite a bit before I decided that $175 per month for DirecTV was ridiculous.  I used to go to a few Twins games each year (it's a 500 mile round trip for me).  Now, the only way I keep track of the Twins and their minor league affiliates is through TwinsDaily.  Sorry for the curveball here, it's probably in the dirt, just like the Twins bullpen.  Now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

[DocBauer]

33 minutes ago, wsnydes said:

They went 17-10 in June.  That's a run, especially when the twins went 13-14 in the same stretch.  

I agree that Chicago is a threat, but they've got quite a bit of work to do.

To add to this, Rocco stated early in the season Winder was one of their best arms and wasn't going anywhere. Unfortunately, injury happened. He was brought up due to the double header. He's "unusable" for a couple of days and had to be sent down by rule. 

Unless they are determined to stretch him out further...which I doubt...he's probably up in a couple of days.

[Aggies7]

1 hour ago, jkcarew said:

Part of the puzzle has to be getting more innings from starters. Averaging a shade more than 4.2 per start. Even for this ridiculous era, that’s low. Right now, Rocco and the FO are pretending that you can protect your starters and hide bullpen arms at the same time. No, you can’t. Maybe for a game or two, or a series. But not over the coarse of a month, let alone a full season.

100% this. I’ve been saying it for months. Starters have been going a bit longer lately but still. Tomorrow is July 1 and a bad bullpen is already gassed, making them even worse. I must have seen “this is the third time through the order and it’s an organizational philosophy” posts a million times on this site. You have to have an actual competent bullpen if you’re going to play that game. Some teams do, many teams don’t. The twins certainly don’t. And not one long man to speak of. I thought archer would get pulled after 2 innings today but he got it together and could possibly have given us another inning.

[Aggies7]

You’d have to imagine the twins are going to be gouged when they try to get help through trades. Every other club would certainly know how desperate we are for bullpen help. Anyone hoping to just “get a high leverage guy” better get ready to pay through the nose. Ain’t gonna be cheap 

[Aggies7]

Cleveland doesn’t impress me all that much. Couple nice hitters like Kwan, Ramirez and gimenez. Outstanding back end of the bullpen. Bieber. But not much else. It was the twins own incompetence over these last ten days that lost them pretty much every game. Sandy Leon and Myles Straw walked FIVE TIMES today. Think about how terrible that is.

[heresthething]

1 hour ago, jkcarew said:

Part of the puzzle has to be getting more innings from starters. Averaging a shade more than 4.2 per start. Even for this ridiculous era, that’s low. Right now, Rocco and the FO are pretending that you can protect your starters and hide bullpen arms at the same time. No, you can’t. Maybe for a game or two, or a series. But not over the coarse of a month, let alone a full season.

Exactly this jkcarew.  It eventually puts every bullpen arm into a high leverage situation and it all implodes.  Championship teams do not build their pitching staffs like this.

[miller761]

Why can't we use Josh Winder in the bullpen? Why is he pitching meaningless innings in AAA? 

[Aerodeliria]

What if you don't like what you see when you look in the mirror?

[Aggies7]

10 minutes ago, Aerodeliria said:

What if you don't like what you see when you look in the mirror?

Plastic surgery? ? 

[Peter Labuza]

I think a good question right now is why isn't Winder being used as a long relief guy or another one of the starters. Rather than go six innings, couldn't he become a third time through the rotation guy and go 3 innings every few days, maybe tie him around Bundy and Archer starts? The Twins currently are using six starters and Ober is on his way back. Seems like there's an essential opportunity to use there.

[USAFChief]

7 minutes ago, Peter Labuza said:

 The Twins currently are using six starters 

They are?

 

To address Winder specifically, he's currently the only reasonable starter depth they have. 

[Danchat]

1 hour ago, Aggies7 said:

100% this. I’ve been saying it for months. Starters have been going a bit longer lately but still. Tomorrow is July 1 and a bad bullpen is already gassed, making them even worse. I must have seen “this is the third time through the order and it’s an organizational philosophy” posts a million times on this site. You have to have an actual competent bullpen if you’re going to play that game. Some teams do, many teams don’t. The twins certainly don’t. And not one long man to speak of. I thought archer would get pulled after 2 innings today but he got it together and could possibly have given us another inning.

I'd like to see the starters get pushed further too, but I'm not convinced it's going to work and make enough difference. Molitor did this quite often back when he was the manager, and it'd result in extra runs being given up in the 5th/6th because he got too greedy pushing the likes of Gibson or Odorizzi too far. Is pushing Archer past his limits, keeping Ryan in despite his dropping MPH, and having Smeltzer face strong RHs a 3rd time really going to pay off? I'll tell you what - the bullpen has been so horrible lately that I will take the risks involved with keeping in the starters too long. Since bullpen help is probably not coming until the deadline, I hope we'll see some adaptations. Hope being the key word.

[terrydactyls]

3 hours ago, h2oface said:

Naaa. It is never how the game is managed, your are unreally correct.

As bad as our bullpen is, and it is horrible, I think we are not Oakland, and there is a bit more accountability, but you can have it your way. Baldelli is not responsible for his choices and timing et al during the game. All on the FO. Every bit of it. 

Picture yourself as the manager of the Twins.  Your starter went four innings and one gave up one hit and one run but also walked six.  He's already thrown more pitches than in any other game this year.  Would you pull him?  I think you probably would.  Your four bullpen options are Duffy, Moran, Thornburg, and Cotton.  The others were not available without risking arm injury.  You go to Moran and then Duffy.  Surprise!  They give you three scoreless innings.  It's now the bottom of the eighth and you have a 3-1 lead.  You look to the bullpen and all you have to work with are Thornburg an Cotton.  Who would you go to?  Cotton, who gave up the winning run yesterday, or Thornburg who is pretty rested?  To me, there isn't any choice other than Thornburg and it did not turn out well.  But I think Baldelli's decision is absolutely defendable.  What's the old saying?  You don't go to a gun fight with a knife?  Well, that's the position he has been put it.

[Aggies7]

6 minutes ago, Danchat said:

the bullpen has been so horrible lately that I will take the risks involved with the starters

This is what I’m saying. Yesterday and today are good examples. I’ll take the chance that the starter, even if he’s getting tired or going through the order a third time, can get a couple outs. And if he can’t, you could have someone warm and ready to come in. I know giving a reliever “non clean inning” isn’t perfect, but you gotta do what you gotta do. 15 outs is a lot for a bullpen to regularly get. Heck we can’t even get 6-9