Logic of not making a trade.

[notoriousgod71]

18 hours ago, baul0010 said:

I don't think the F.O. really believed there was a chance this year.  You would not have traded Rogers this year if you thought you were contending.  They knew Paddick had arm issues and were ok with him for 2 years after Tommy John.  I can't see the F.O. dealing the talent they spent 5 years collecting on taking a shot at it this year while throwing all of the prospects around the league for 2 starters and some relievers.  

That is what annoys me. They were seemingly selling with the trades of Rogers, Donaldson, and garver but seemingly buying with Correa and Gray. You can't simultaneously do both. There's no direction with this organization. 

 

We should have seen it coming years ago when they traded for Jaime Garcia and then flipped him after one start.

[Heiny]

Good subject for conversation.  Personally, like I've said before,  I believe teams should be trying to win "every year".  That is the one and only goal of playing the game.  But realistically, looking forward can be very beneficial over the long run.  When you have money like the Yankees,  you can and should be in the mix every year.  The Twins don't have that luxury.  But since hindsight is 20/20, we should be learning from the past, and it seems that pitching seems to be the problem year in and year out.  Whether it be the starters or the pen, it always comes down to pitching.  These recent games of bullpen blowups is particularly upsetting when we have gotten decent to excellent SPing.  A lot has been said about how Rocco manages the pitching game, and whether you agree or not,  it's not working.  So, do I think we need to make some trades?  If we want to pretend the goal is winning, then yes, we need to strengthen the pen.  Just my 14 cents worth(inflation has been bad too).  P.S.  The Umpiring calling balls and strikes has been horrific this year.  I'll say it again.  Either bring in the electronic strike zone or get rid of the zone box on the tube.  The umps should be embarrassed. 

[Dave The Dastardly]

11 hours ago, Squirrel said:

I think he has a limited trade clause, and can only be traded to certain teams ... don't know which ones. However, we are NOT going to get a haul of prospects for him. No one will be able to pay it, for one. The only teams possibly interested would be contending teams. Of known contending teams, which ones need a SS? And of those, which ones can take on that salary? We aren't going to get a haul with that much salary involved. And until we are out of it, we are still in it. Whether or not we have hope to go deep into the playoffs, I think we still make the playoffs ... so I won't trade Correa unless/until we are deeply out of it, and then, don't expect a lot in return. Remember the lessons of the Santana trade.

Thanks for the info. But I wasn't encouraging the idea, merely stating that if a Correa trade was the intent of the FO when they signed Correa it showed some serious deviltry from the FO. Not sure if deviltry is good or bad when it comes to FO operations, but my first impression is that it usually comes back to bite the devils in the fanny; they outsmart themselves.

[Squirrel]

2 minutes ago, Dave The Dastardly said:

Thanks for the info. But I wasn't encouraging the idea, merely stating that if a Correa trade was the intent of the FO when they signed Correa it showed some serious deviltry from the FO. Not sure if deviltry is good or bad when it comes to FO operations, but my first impression is that it usually comes back to bite the devils in the fanny; they outsmart themselves.

Yeah, I don’t think most, including the FO, thought they would trade him at the deadline.

[TopGunn#22]

I dislike the defeatist attitude of "why should we do anything...we'll NEVER beat the Yankees (or Astros)" !!  Heck, were the Twins the BEST team in baseball in 1987 ?  Certainly not.  St. Louis and Detroit were better.  Yet we beat them both.  Sports is littered with champions who were not "the best regular season team." 

We desperately need BP help right now.  BP arms aren't as costly as a SP (Montas, Castillo).  Go out and get a couple !  I don't look at trades as simply a one-year, right now benefit.  Acquiring a Lopez from the Orioles or Bednar from the Pirates isn't just for this year.  Same with a Montas or Castillo.  Both these SP's are young enough to front a Twins rotation for the next 5-years, and are a better bet than any minor league pitcher in the Twins system for 2022 and 5 years after. 

We have a team that has some glaring weaknesses, but if some of these were fortified with a trade or two I'd go to war with a lineup that has Arraez, Buxton, Correa, Polanco and an up and coming Kirilloff !  NOTHING is guaranteed for next year or the year after.  We are playing baseball in 2022.  No trade should be made for 3-months, but for Pete's Sake, stop with the crowning of the Yankees as World Series Champs already!  They will find a way to screw it up.  Believe Me ! 

[Trov]

2 hours ago, notoriousgod71 said:

That is what annoys me. They were seemingly selling with the trades of Rogers, Donaldson, and garver but seemingly buying with Correa and Gray. You can't simultaneously do both. There's no direction with this organization. 

 

We should have seen it coming years ago when they traded for Jaime Garcia and then flipped him after one start.

You can adjust the roster and still looking to improve the team.  We always think of the team as either competing or rebuilding.  You say you cannot trade away established guys if you are "buying" and cannot being in established guys if you are "selling" but there is a third option of moving extra pieces of depth to fill holes, even if they are on the major league roster.  Cleveland a couple of times traded away their top starters during the year to fill holes they had and still planed and still did compete overall.  They did not go into full sell mode.  Trading away Garver was not a sell move it was trade from depth move to fill a SS hole.  Then when Yankees came knocking and there was still SS out there to try and sign, they freeded up Donaldson's contract to go after a SS.  

The FO makes moves and do not get married to moves made.  They are willing to pivot quickly depending on the situation and the offers. You need to look at all the moves made, not each one made in a vacuum. 

[Trov]

8 minutes ago, TopGunn#22 said:

I dislike the defeatist attitude of "why should we do anything...we'll NEVER beat the Yankees (or Astros)" !!  Heck, were the Twins the BEST team in baseball in 1987 ?  Certainly not.  St. Louis and Detroit were better.  Yet we beat them both.  Sports is littered with champions who were not "the best regular season team." 

We desperately need BP help right now.  BP arms aren't as costly as a SP (Montas, Castillo).  Go out and get a couple !  I don't look at trades as simply a one-year, right now benefit.  Acquiring a Lopez from the Orioles or Bednar from the Pirates isn't just for this year.  Same with a Montas or Castillo.  Both these SP's are young enough to front a Twins rotation for the next 5-years, and are a better bet than any minor league pitcher in the Twins system for 2022 and 5 years after. 

We have a team that has some glaring weaknesses, but if some of these were fortified with a trade or two I'd go to war with a lineup that has Arraez, Buxton, Correa, Polanco and an up and coming Kirilloff !  NOTHING is guaranteed for next year or the year after.  We are playing baseball in 2022.  No trade should be made for 3-months, but for Pete's Sake, stop with the crowning of the Yankees as World Series Champs already!  They will find a way to screw it up.  Believe Me ! 

I want to make clear, I was not advocating for doing nothing, but was pointing out that people say we should do something for the reason we cannot beat the Yankees.  I fully support making small pen moves. 

In terms of Montas and Casitllo, we would need to sign to extensions to have them in our system beyond next year.  About 80 to 90 percent of long term extensions of SP rarely work out well for the team.  Not just the FA signings, but I could put on a huge list of guys that were traded for that did not work out well in long term.  

Again, I agree our pen needs improving overall, but I see no point in blowing up our farm system for high end SP or even high end pen arms, but doing smaller moves for pen guys I would fully support.  I was mainly pointing out though that people say we need to make moves because we will not win in the playoffs as is, but I point out we will not be the favorite even if we do, so if the reason for the move is because as built we will not win, why make a move if we still will not win?  Yes, a move will increase our chances some, and I am not saying not making any moves, but is there any move that you will feel like we no will win, or just say we are better? 

[tony&rodney]

The Twins have a reasonably strong cast of younger players on their roster right now: Jeffers, Kirilloff, Arraez, Polanco, Miranda, Correa, Gordon, Celestino, Buxton, and Kepler. We can include Larnach and Lewis from the IL list and then there are Sanchez and Urshela. Palacios showed more than enough glove in his short stint this year and has improved with the bat. That is 15 players.

The starting pitchers have looked decent: Smeltzer, Gray, Ryan, Archer, and Bundy with Ober on the IL and Winder and Sands at AAA. Maeda is still under contract too.

The Twins can afford to trade their prospects because there are already a host of players above them and help is needed in the bullpen. The only prospect (not counting players named above) I would protect is E. Rodriguez.

[sdtwins37]

No trades, there are to many gaps in the pen.  1 or 2 pen arms won’t change a first round sweep if we make it that far.  I love Twins baseball, but this is where we are at.

[Heiny]

I think the key right now is to make the playoffs.  Once in the playoffs, anything can happen, including beating the Yankees.  Past series in the playoffs have not been good to us, but that doesn't mean we should quit trying.  Fixing our BP problems seems like a very good way to attempt to make the playoffs.  Obviously the BP needs improvement.  What will it take?  That's for the FO to figure out.  But standing pat would feel like giving up to me.  

[Trov]

50 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

The Twins have a reasonably strong cast of younger players on their roster right now: Jeffers, Kirilloff, Arraez, Polanco, Miranda, Correa, Gordon, Celestino, Buxton, and Kepler. We can include Larnach and Lewis from the IL list and then there are Sanchez and Urshela. Palacios showed more than enough glove in his short stint this year and has improved with the bat. That is 15 players.

The starting pitchers have looked decent: Smeltzer, Gray, Ryan, Archer, and Bundy with Ober on the IL and Winder and Sands at AAA. Maeda is still under contract too.

The Twins can afford to trade their prospects because there are already a host of players above them and help is needed in the bullpen. The only prospect (not counting players named above) I would protect is E. Rodriguez.

Are you saying of the names listed they are off limits too?  I have a feeling depending on the team, and the player we are trying to bring in, some of the young guys you list on the roster right now may be required to go.  

One should also be concerned in 2 to 3 years as well on what the team will look like if you trade away all the guys looking to make debuts in 2 to 3 years.  Yes, we can worry about that time when it comes, but a good FO thinks about the now, and the future.  If you sell all your future for the now, even if it pays off with a flag flying, the FO normally gets the boot when they reap what they sew in the years to follow when you do not have a good team to field. 

[baul0010]

15 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

No starting pitching? Wow, you might want to look at the stats across the league....

We are probably around 7 or 8th in the league in ERA.  If you are telling me you would want to go into a postseason series with our pitching staff against any of the 6 teams in front of us...You are nuts

I am happy that we have a decent ERA and 4 to 5 guys that can give us 5 innings without imploding, but I don't think that is going to continue.  I just don't see Sonny Gray starting game 1 of the playoffs being favored to win against any teams #1.  

That is getting ahead of ourselves.  After the Cleveland series we may not need to worry about who is starting game 1 in the playoffs.

 

[chpettit19]

38 minutes ago, baul0010 said:

We are probably around 7 or 8th in the league in ERA.  If you are telling me you would want to go into a postseason series with our pitching staff against any of the 6 teams in front of us...You are nuts

I am happy that we have a decent ERA and 4 to 5 guys that can give us 5 innings without imploding, but I don't think that is going to continue.  I just don't see Sonny Gray starting game 1 of the playoffs being favored to win against any teams #1.  

That is getting ahead of ourselves.  After the Cleveland series we may not need to worry about who is starting game 1 in the playoffs.

 

Max Fried vs Bullpen Game
Ian Anderson vs Max Scherzer
Charlie Morton vs Walker Buehler
Bullpen Game vs Julio Urias
Max Fried vs Bullpen Game
Ian Anderson vs Walker Buehler

The 2 Max Fried games are the only 2 games the Braves were favored in that series based on the starting pitchers for those games. The Braves went 1-1 in those games while being outscored 13-5 in those 2 games combined. They won with Ian Anderson going against Max Scherzer. Won with their bullpen going against Julio Urias (9-2!). Won with Ian Anderson going against Walker Buehler.

[Mike Sixel]

51 minutes ago, baul0010 said:

We are probably around 7 or 8th in the league in ERA.  If you are telling me you would want to go into a postseason series with our pitching staff against any of the 6 teams in front of us...You are nuts

I am happy that we have a decent ERA and 4 to 5 guys that can give us 5 innings without imploding, but I don't think that is going to continue.  I just don't see Sonny Gray starting game 1 of the playoffs being favored to win against any teams #1.  

That is getting ahead of ourselves.  After the Cleveland series we may not need to worry about who is starting game 1 in the playoffs.

 

What makes you think next year would be different? The Yankees are likely to be great for several years.  You take your shot when you have it.  Or not, and just muddle along.  I mean, they might not even have a decent shortstop next year....

[notoriousgod71]

4 hours ago, Trov said:

You can adjust the roster and still looking to improve the team.  We always think of the team as either competing or rebuilding.  You say you cannot trade away established guys if you are "buying" and cannot being in established guys if you are "selling" but there is a third option of moving extra pieces of depth to fill holes, even if they are on the major league roster.  Cleveland a couple of times traded away their top starters during the year to fill holes they had and still planed and still did compete overall.  They did not go into full sell mode.  Trading away Garver was not a sell move it was trade from depth move to fill a SS hole.  Then when Yankees came knocking and there was still SS out there to try and sign, they freeded up Donaldson's contract to go after a SS.  

The FO makes moves and do not get married to moves made.  They are willing to pivot quickly depending on the situation and the offers. You need to look at all the moves made, not each one made in a vacuum. 

Catching depth? 

[howeda7]

5 hours ago, TopGunn#22 said:

I dislike the defeatist attitude of "why should we do anything...we'll NEVER beat the Yankees (or Astros)" !!  Heck, were the Twins the BEST team in baseball in 1987 ?  Certainly not.  St. Louis and Detroit were better.  Yet we beat them both.  Sports is littered with champions who were not "the best regular season team." 

We desperately need BP help right now.  BP arms aren't as costly as a SP (Montas, Castillo).  Go out and get a couple !  I don't look at trades as simply a one-year, right now benefit.  Acquiring a Lopez from the Orioles or Bednar from the Pirates isn't just for this year.  Same with a Montas or Castillo.  Both these SP's are young enough to front a Twins rotation for the next 5-years, and are a better bet than any minor league pitcher in the Twins system for 2022 and 5 years after. 

We have a team that has some glaring weaknesses, but if some of these were fortified with a trade or two I'd go to war with a lineup that has Arraez, Buxton, Correa, Polanco and an up and coming Kirilloff !  NOTHING is guaranteed for next year or the year after.  We are playing baseball in 2022.  No trade should be made for 3-months, but for Pete's Sake, stop with the crowning of the Yankees as World Series Champs already!  They will find a way to screw it up.  Believe Me ! 

This. The Yankees will be "better" than the Twins 90% of the time. Nothing will be different in 2024 than it is now. But we won't have Correa and Buxton will be two years older. If this our logic, we should never try to win and have a $60 million payroll every year like Oakland/Tampa. We need to operate like the Cardinals, not the A's.

[nicksaviking]

21 hours ago, USAFChief said:

I don't understand this thought process.

Can you build a good infield out of thin air? Starting staff? Defense?

Why do people think bullpens operate differently than every other part of a baseball team?

Talent and depth make a good pen. Just like anything else. Guys that reliably throw strikes and get outs. 

Because unlike other positions, relievers are basically already on Plan B. If things had gone right for these guys, they’d be starters. And the flaws that forced them to the pen, typically a lack of pitches, durability and iffy command, make them unreliable by nature.

Even the “elite” closers don’t tend to stay elite for long. I do think there’s a lot of finger crossing and hoping to catch lightning in a bottle with the bullpen. Much more than the other positions.

Not saying it’s all luck; this team should be doing better in this area, but It’s never going to be a position I’ll trust, no matter who they bring in.

[ICTwin25]

I would like to see a trade made now for an arm or two. The Twins have a ton of talent in the infield (Gio, Correa, Arraez, Polanco, Kirilloff, Miranda, Lewis next year, and then Nick Gordon at times). What's the point of keeping Austin Martin then? Also, what's the point of keeping both Gordon and Polanco. I understand that we like them all and it's great to have depth, but what good is depth when your bullpen blows the lead every other game?

[tony&rodney]

5 hours ago, Trov said:

a flag flying,

1987 and 1991 seemed like yesterday and I not only enjoyed sitting in great seats but had an all access pass to every MLB party. Guess what? That was a very long time ago unless you are really OLD. The time is ripe for this front office to worry more about right now than five years from now. There are zero players within the Twins organization that are untouchable. No, Falvey will not trade the entire team or future, nor should he, but at least two trades are needed asap.

[Jim wyllie]

There is no need to trade away the farm this year I agree, but I will say this the Yankees likely won't keep the pace they are on winning games,  they have holes and a softer lineup than usual, we have played well against the Jay's, rays, red Sox heck we were in all 3 games against the Yankees at least til the late innings.  Bullpen improvement should be the big  focus in trades but be smart and make the right deals, and if a good starter can be added at a reasonable price go for it.   Also we may have been swept by the Astros earlier but we were banged up and without Correa and they were red hot and they too will likely eventually slow down in the second  half especially when teams have made adjustment on Pena.   Don't forget Acala and coolumbe are good pen arms will be back from injury later this year.  The twins have had more players injured than any other team and are still in first place don't forget that, cause it shows  the depth the twins do have.

[gman]

Gray, Ryan and Smeltzer appear set to go 6-7 innings most starts. Not sure what Archer will do. Add Winder and Ober, when he's back, and we have 6 pretty good starters. If the team is still I the playoff hunt at the end of July, I would consider rotating the best minor league starters into the bullpen in August and September. They can be our best bet on acquiring good arms for the stretch and at the same time give them some major league exposure. Its not unheard of for minor league pitchers to start in the bullpen.

[Twodogs]

On 7/1/2022 at 9:09 AM, chpettit19 said:

Max Fried vs Bullpen Game
Ian Anderson vs Max Scherzer
Charlie Morton vs Walker Buehler
Bullpen Game vs Julio Urias
Max Fried vs Bullpen Game
Ian Anderson vs Walker Buehler

The 2 Max Fried games are the only 2 games the Braves were favored in that series based on the starting pitchers for those games. The Braves went 1-1 in those games while being outscored 13-5 in those 2 games combined. They won with Ian Anderson going against Max Scherzer. Won with their bullpen going against Julio Urias (9-2!). Won with Ian Anderson going against Walker Buehler.

Do we have any 24 year olds as good as Ian Anderson??  I mean because if we did we'd be in pretty good shape.

Fried 28 MLB debut 23

Anderson 24 MLB debut 21

Soroka 24 MLB debut 20

Wright 26 MLB debut 22

Strider 23 MLB debut 22

 

Solve our bullpen issues with guys from the system.  Quit babying these guys and get them up here.  See if they can get Major league outs.  If they can't they are young enough to go back and make adjustments.  If the twins wait until they are 24 - 25 all of the time they are often too old to really go back and make adjustments.  Bring up the young studs, see if Balazovic and etc..... can get outs in the 6th and 7th innings.  It's probably a better gamble than bringing in some more washed up guys and trying to re-create them.  

 

[Game7-91]

On 7/1/2022 at 8:30 AM, Trov said:

About 80 to 90 percent of long term extensions of SP rarely work out well for the team.  Not just the FA signings, but I could put on a huge list of guys that were traded for that did not work out well in long term.  

This from MLBTR reinforcing the point generally....extensions, or risky trades, have similar profile, Twins FO took a red flag risk and sacrificed a piece of BP that may define the FO's season, not in a good way:

   "...as the Mets reportedly were in discussions with the Padres this offseason on a deal that would have sent Dominic Smith to San Diego in exchange for Chris Paddack, Emilio Pagan, Eric Hosmer and $30MM to help cover Hosmer’s salary. The deal ended up falling through due to the Mets’ medical staff growing concerns with the medical records of Paddack,..."

 

[chpettit19]

6 hours ago, Twodogs said:

Do we have any 24 year olds as good as Ian Anderson??  I mean because if we did we'd be in pretty good shape.

Fried 28 MLB debut 23

Anderson 24 MLB debut 21

Soroka 24 MLB debut 20

Wright 26 MLB debut 22

Strider 23 MLB debut 22

 

Solve our bullpen issues with guys from the system.  Quit babying these guys and get them up here.  See if they can get Major league outs.  If they can't they are young enough to go back and make adjustments.  If the twins wait until they are 24 - 25 all of the time they are often too old to really go back and make adjustments.  Bring up the young studs, see if Balazovic and etc..... can get outs in the 6th and 7th innings.  It's probably a better gamble than bringing in some more washed up guys and trying to re-create them.  

 

1. The point of my post seems to have gone completely over your head. The point was about the misconception thrown around these boards constantly that the Twins can't win in the postseason cuz they'll never have a pitcher who's expected to win on paper verse the other starter. I provided an example of a series that was won (not just 1 game, an entire 7 game series) by a rotation full of arms that weren't as good as the other rotation.

2. Balazovic currently has a 9.24 ERA in AAA, let me save the suspense and let you know now he can't get guys out in the 6th and 7th innings in the majors. Cole Sands has gotten a couple chances and shown he has things to work on. Josh Winder has been on the roster for much of the season. SWR got off to a fantastic start in AA this year, but he's given up 19 runs in his last 31.2 innings at AA. Again, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know he's not ready to get major leaguers out. Matt Canterino hasn't thrown a pitch in over a month. Ronny Henriquez has an ERA of 6.66 in AAA. Drew Strotman's ERA is 8.40 in St Paul. I guess you could make a case for testing out Varland since he's actually been quite good this year. The whole "just throw the young guys in there and see if they can do it" is such an awful baseball take. No organization runs that way. Teams don't just say "eh, he's 24 so may as well." Guys with ERAs over 9 in the minors shouldn't just be thrown into the majors to see if they can swim. They can't.

[Twodogs]

20 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

1. The point of my post seems to have gone completely over your head. The point was about the misconception thrown around these boards constantly that the Twins can't win in the postseason cuz they'll never have a pitcher who's expected to win on paper verse the other starter. I provided an example of a series that was won (not just 1 game, an entire 7 game series) by a rotation full of arms that weren't as good as the other rotation.

2. Balazovic currently has a 9.24 ERA in AAA, let me save the suspense and let you know now he can't get guys out in the 6th and 7th innings in the majors. Cole Sands has gotten a couple chances and shown he has things to work on. Josh Winder has been on the roster for much of the season. SWR got off to a fantastic start in AA this year, but he's given up 19 runs in his last 31.2 innings at AA. Again, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know he's not ready to get major leaguers out. Matt Canterino hasn't thrown a pitch in over a month. Ronny Henriquez has an ERA of 6.66 in AAA. Drew Strotman's ERA is 8.40 in St Paul. I guess you could make a case for testing out Varland since he's actually been quite good this year. The whole "just throw the young guys in there and see if they can do it" is such an awful baseball take. No organization runs that way. Teams don't just say "eh, he's 24 so may as well." Guys with ERAs over 9 in the minors shouldn't just be thrown into the majors to see if they can swim. They can't.

So what your saying is that there isn't any pipeline of pitching in the Twins system.  So if those guys aren't able to pitch for the Twins why would anyone else want them in a trade for their pitchers.  I mean teams realistically don't trade their better players for guys that can't get minor league players out.

 

Regardless why are these other organizations such as the braves and the dodgers able to get these guys up to the Majors more quickly??  Are the people in Atlanta just smarter that the people in Minnesota and they just beat them at the draft table every year?  Or do they have better coaches in Atlanta and LA where they are just able to get their guys prepared much more quickly?  Whatever the reason it probably needs to be addressed. I mean Urias I think his debut was when he was 19?  Kershaw 20, May 21, Buehler 22, etc....  I mean the Twins got Berrios up pretty quickly but it just seems to take forever as a twins fan watching these guys rot in the minors.  

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, Twodogs said:

So what your saying is that there isn't any pipeline of pitching in the Twins system.  So if those guys aren't able to pitch for the Twins why would anyone else want them in a trade for their pitchers.  I mean teams realistically don't trade their better players for guys that can't get minor league players out.  

I don't remember ever saying any of these guys should or would be traded for major league pitchers. But that's not the point. The point is you're misrepresenting how prospects work. Balazovic not being able to get major leaguers out now doesn't mean he won't be able to get them out in the future. The Twins traded Chase Petty for Sonny Gray a few months back. Why would the Reds do that when Chase Petty likely couldn't get AA or AAA hitters out this year? Calling up prospects who aren't ready is an awful idea, and saying prospects who aren't currently dominating the minors will never be good is also a terrible take. 

"The pipeline" is certainly not performing as well as we'd all like, but Winder and Duran came from that pipeline this year and they're looking awfully nice. Ryan, Ober, Moran, and Jax all debuted with the Twins last year (yes, Ryan was acquired via trade, but they still targeted a minor leaguer they thought could get major leaguers out eventually). If your expectation is that every big name prospect the Twins have in the system will eventually be big name major leaguers you're going to be really disappointed.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

On 6/30/2022 at 12:37 PM, Battle ur tail off said:

Then why grab Correa?

 

Because he is the best freaking SS on the planet.

[RpR]

32 minutes ago, Twodogs said:

So what your saying is that there isn't any pipeline of pitching in the Twins system.  So if those guys aren't able to pitch for the Twins why would anyone else want them in a trade for their pitchers.  I mean teams realistically don't trade their better players for guys that can't get minor league players out.

 

Regardless why are these other organizations such as the braves and the dodgers able to get these guys up to the Majors more quickly??  Are the people in Atlanta just smarter that the people in Minnesota and they just beat them at the draft table every year?  Or do they have better coaches in Atlanta and LA where they are just able to get their guys prepared much more quickly?  Whatever the reason it probably needs to be addressed. I mean Urias I think his debut was when he was 19?  Kershaw 20, May 21, Buehler 22, etc....  I mean the Twins got Berrios up pretty quickly but it just seems to take forever as a twins fan watching these guys rot in the minors.  

They rot in the minors, with rare dudes who are on the wrong team at the wrong time, because they have not shown they should be in the majors.

[chpettit19]

47 minutes ago, Twodogs said:

Regardless why are these other organizations such as the braves and the dodgers able to get these guys up to the Majors more quickly??  Are the people in Atlanta just smarter that the people in Minnesota and they just beat them at the draft table every year?  Or do they have better coaches in Atlanta and LA where they are just able to get their guys prepared much more quickly?  Whatever the reason it probably needs to be addressed. I mean Urias I think his debut was when he was 19?  Kershaw 20, May 21, Buehler 22, etc....  I mean the Twins got Berrios up pretty quickly but it just seems to take forever as a twins fan watching these guys rot in the minors.  

The previous FO was lightyears behind the times in terms of pitching development. That plays a large role in this specific complaint. The new FO has updated the development strategies and systems, but it takes a little time to get that going. 2020 delayed everything a little as well. Age is only part of the equation on this, too. You can't debut at 20 if you were a 4 year college guy (drafted after your 3rd year most likely, but attended a 4 year university as opposed to JUCO so aren't eligible to drafted until after your 3rd year).

So it's not just about age, but time spent in the minors. Urias was signed at 16 in 2013 and debuted in 17 at the age of 19, but wasn't a fulltime major leaguer until he was 22. Kershaw has an argument for being the best pitcher of this generation so it's a little unfair to compare guys to him, but yes he debuted at 20 after 2 years in the minors. Dustin May was also drafted out of high school, took 3 years to debut.

So if we use 2-3 years as a cutoff for not "rotting in the minors" you'd be looking at guys drafted in 2020 or 2019 for the Twins. Canterino is the best looking arm from the 2019 draft and would likely be in the majors now, but he can't stay healthy. Louie Varland was a 15th round pick out of a D2 school and has a shot to debut this year, but certainly looks on track to debut next year at the latest. 2020 the Twins only had 4 picks so little hard to judge there. So the Twins have setup their development systems and have 2 arms that could make that 3 window debut timetable if Canterino could get healthy and if Varland keeps dominating, and that's with no season in 2020. So one could argue that really those drafted in 2018 are on their 3rd minor league season and that'd put both Winder and Sands in the 3 year window the Dodgers were turning pitchers out in after being drafted. Many are calling for Austin Schulfer to get a shot in the pen this year and that'd be a 3rd arm from that class (19th rounder even). Hajjar and Povich have both looked good this year after being drafted last year and it wouldn't be unrealistic to predict they debut within 3 years as well. Same with 13th round pick David Festa. Bailey Ober debuted in 2021 after being drafted in 2017 (12th round) with the lost 2020 season mixed in. All this to say that I think the perception that the Twins leave goes to "rot in the minors" may be inaccurate.