Guardians 7, Twins 6: Another Bullpen Meltdown in Extra Innings Loss

[jorgenswest]

6 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

So am I reading this correctly. We are to rejoice the fact that the Twins have control of Pagan for 1 more year and a damaged Paddack vs Rogers who would have a nice payday due at the end of 2022 for a 40+ save season. Well hallelujah. That's why the Twinkies struggle. A reliever of that caliber plus Duran can take a team deep into October. But hell yeah, the twins get to groundhog day with Pagan for 2023

I don’t think you are reading it correctly.

[Riverbrian]

2 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Nope. Relievers the quality of Rogers don't just magically reappear after you dump them.

"Just replace him" is ... poorly thought out. How? With who? The half dozen or more waiver wire wonders we churn through every year? That's how we got where we are.

No, good bullpens aren't accidents, they don't result from "just throw enough **** against the wall and it'll work itself out." Good Relievers aren't "fungible," they aren't "the easiest thing to find at the deadline," and they aren't "unpredictable."

I read over and over how smart Falvine were. Well, own it.

 

I’m not going to debate this in the extremes like there is nothing between Taylor Rogers and terrible.

You and I agree that the bullpen is vital. Especially in this age of managed pitch counts and trips through the order. If starters are going to throw less innings and they are… the bullpen needs to fill those extra innings and as a result the bullpen workload is also going to be managed including Taylor Rogers if he was still on the roster. The bullpen needs to be aggressively rostered from top to bottom. I’m not as concerned with the top as I am with the bottom. The bottom is what is killing us. Taylor on the roster is absolutely an improvement because it should knock someone off the bottom, but we are still talking about one spot. Not having Taylor Rogers doesn’t mean we have to tolerate what Pagan is providing like there is nothing in between.     

Taylor Rogers is just one guy. Who replaces Taylor Rogers? Not my call… that job is on the front office. I can throw names out there but that would be meaningless. However, let’s not pretend that the mere presence of Taylor Rogers fixes this bullpen. He improves it if he stays healthy, but he is just one guy and the Taylor Rogers trade didn’t cripple the bullpen by his not being here. The arms in the current bullpen are crippling the bullpen and we’ve had months to make the assessments. The options to fix that come in all shapes and sizes in between great and terrible. You and I both know that.

We agree the front office hasn’t done enough in this regard. July starts tomorrow. It’s time… they must get to work and make those phone calls and get bullpen serious.         

[Vanimal46]

11 hours ago, D.C Twins said:

Rocco: "There have been times where Emilio Pagán is one of the best relievers in baseball, he knows what that feels like. Right now his stuff is actually good, the execution is not good."

Translation: "Pagan is pitching terribly... but my excel spreadsheet says that he should be pitching good, so I need to keep sending him out there in high leverage situations... (oh my excel spreadsheet... my precious...)" 

My translation, that @wsnydeswill appreciate, is Pagan hits them long and straight on the driving range. Once he steps on the 1st tee, his drive is sliced, chunks it in the rough, and ends up with a triple bogey. 

[USNMCPO]

They better get a complete game start today because Rocco done fried his bullpen.

[jmlease1]

37 minutes ago, LastOnePicked said:

Can't even imagine what this is like for Jayce Tingler. He's watching Pagan destroy another season for a totally different team, right before his eyes. Maybe even getting the manager fired again in the process.

When some of us said the Rogers trade was a disaster in the making, this is exactly what we meant. And when some of us said that Rocco's inability to adjust when changes are needed - this also is what we meant. Just listen to him make excuses and fawn over Pagan ("his stuff is great, but his execution isn't good" - what the heck IS pitching if not EXECUTION?).

This won't change because Rocco won't demand changes. He seems more worried about clubhouse chemistry than being decisive and taking a stand over player nonperformance. Pagan should not be on this squad today, period. But this will be the Colome disaster all over again.

This is where you're just making stuff up because you've already decided Rocco = Bad. You have no idea what Rocco is asking for/demanding behind the scenes, and frankly the manager tossing a player under the bus to satisfy the fanbase is always a foolish move. It doesn't "inspire" anyone to do better, but it's much more likely to get people pointing fingers at each other. Rocco & the team have made changes to the bullpen (Duran & Jax both started the season in lower-leverage roles, Smith has changed from being a 1-2 batter guy to someone who gets run out for longer stints, Duffey's role has changed, etc). But more importantly, Rocco doesn't just make these changes on his own: Wes Johnson was involved in all of them, our bullpen coach who is now our pitching coach was involved in all of them.

The "Blame Rocco" chants are tired.

And expecting a manager not to support his player to the press in the useless post-game conference is fantasy land. Who rips his guys after a loss any longer? (Hint: it's no one.)

[miller761]

We can not continue to waste good starting pitching if our goal is to win the division. We need the best pitchers we have in the bullpen as there are only 8. You can not hide arms there. We need to improve the pen either through trade or our system. My suggestion is to put Winder in the pen - he has proven himself by the results he has got starting. In the pen he can pitch multiple innings in a close game like Duran. That should also limit his innings for the year. We are leading the division now is the time to make changes not wait for the other 2 teams to catch us.

[wsnydes]

10 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

My translation, that @wsnydeswill appreciate, is Pagan hits them long and straight on the driving range. Once he steps on the 1st tee, his drive is sliced, chunks it in the rough, and ends up with a triple bogey. 

I see that you've spent a lot of time studying my golf game!  Not sure if I should be flattered, frightened, or inclined to ask you for swing tips!

[Schmoeman5]

6 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

This is where you're just making stuff up because you've already decided Rocco = Bad. You have no idea what Rocco is asking for/demanding behind the scenes, and frankly the manager tossing a player under the bus to satisfy the fanbase is always a foolish move. It doesn't "inspire" anyone to do better, but it's much more likely to get people pointing fingers at each other. Rocco & the team have made changes to the bullpen (Duran & Jax both started the season in lower-leverage roles, Smith has changed from being a 1-2 batter guy to someone who gets run out for longer stints, Duffey's role has changed, etc). But more importantly, Rocco doesn't just make these changes on his own: Wes Johnson was involved in all of them, our bullpen coach who is now our pitching coach was involved in all of them.

The "Blame Rocco" chants are tired.

And expecting a manager not to support his player to the press in the useless post-game conference is fantasy land. Who rips his guys after a loss any longer? (Hint: it's no one.)

So you've stated that pitchers roles have changed. And Twins fans expect Rocco to throw Pagan under the bus. And pitching coach and bullpen coach are all involved in decision making. Then why do they keep putting him in the same high pressure situations when they can clearly see his struggles over the past 10 days and realistically all season long. Pagan escaped blown saves 3 or 4 times earlier in the season and everyone saw that the law of averages will come back to bite you. So this hasn't been just a last 10 days thing. This is who he was in San Diego and in Minnesota 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

27 minutes ago, USNMCPO said:

They better get a complete game start today because Rocco done fried his bullpen.

My guess is Moran throws 50+ pitches today and gets DFA’d after the game 

[USAFChief]

34 minutes ago, jmlease1 said:

This is where you're just making stuff up because you've already decided Rocco = Bad. You have no idea what Rocco is asking for/demanding behind the scenes, and frankly the manager tossing a player under the bus to satisfy the fanbase is always a foolish move. It doesn't "inspire" anyone to do better, but it's much more likely to get people pointing fingers at each other. Rocco & the team have made changes to the bullpen (Duran & Jax both started the season in lower-leverage roles, Smith has changed from being a 1-2 batter guy to someone who gets run out for longer stints, Duffey's role has changed, etc). But more importantly, Rocco doesn't just make these changes on his own: Wes Johnson was involved in all of them, our bullpen coach who is now our pitching coach was involved in all of them.

The "Blame Rocco" chants are tired.

And expecting a manager not to support his player to the press in the useless post-game conference is fantasy land. Who rips his guys after a loss any longer? (Hint: it's no one.)

Would it be possible for someone to have an opinion on Baldelli without getting chastised?

 

Thanks everyone. 

[Battle ur tail off]

2 hours ago, AceWrigley said:

Yeah, probably not a good sign for him returning any time soon . . . bummer.

From Rotowire 6/22/22: "Alcala (elbow) will resume his throwing program next week, the Minneapolis Star Tribune reports. Alcala has been on the injured list since April 12 with right elbow inflammation. He made a rehab appearance June 1 but was later shut down again with tightness in his pitching elbow. He's still likely a long way away from returning, but at least he's showing some progress and his setback wasn't season ending."

What's the chances he actually comes back? I have heard this kind of talk from the Twins before right before someone gets shut down for the year.

[Mike Sixel]

5 hours ago, lukeduke1980 said:

I guess the irony is that we're hoping that the FO who made the ill-fated trade for Pagan to make another trade for bullpen help.  Can't wait to see who they get this time

The same front office that built an entire starting staff from scratch? People just can't see beyond their rage.....

[bighat]

17 minutes ago, Battle ur tail off said:

What's the chances he actually comes back? I have heard this kind of talk from the Twins before right before someone gets shut down for the year.

Mentally, I've shelved the guy for the year and did so a long time ago. His progress updates have all sounded awful, they should have probably let him undergo some kind of surgery back in April. Instead they've waited and done nothing, and now he'll probably have that surgery in August and miss all of 2023 also.

In short, I don't think he's coming back and we'll be lucky to see him in Spring Training.

[HokieRif]

[prouster]

11 hours ago, USAFChief said:

I know we're not allowed to question Baldelli here…

Don’t you literally moderate what can and cannot be said here?

[Florida Flash]

I am afraid these two losses in Cleveland, which should have never happened, is going to bite the Twins right in the backside at the end of the season. Never was a big fan of Pagan because IMO he walks waaay too many people to be used in high leverage situations, I hope the Twinks can recover from this, but it could be a turning point. Oh well, we'll get em next year.

[twinfan]

I blame Baldelli for last night. But, unless we get some relievers who can slam the door shut, even if we squeak into the playoffs, it will be a short lived party.

[rv78]

Time to move Jax and Duran into the high leverage roles of closing out close ball games in the 8th and 9th innings. Everyone else in the bullpen has pretty much proven that they are not capable. How long before Rocco figures this out? I'm guessing September.