Managerial questions

[Aggies7]

13 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

I loved Tom Kelly.

But we’re talking about the same Tom Kelly who’s fundamentally strong teams had 10 losing seasons in 16 years right?

I mean, kind of an unfair comparison considering the makeup of those mid-late 90’s teams especially relative to today’s team. Not too many Carlos Correa’s or Luis arraez’s on those squads. And some fellas on the Gardy teams of the early 00’s cut their teeth under TK. Not the most talented teams but they got the most out of it. I would say those teams were overall less talented than the one we have today. 

[Aggies7]

1 hour ago, cHawk said:

But does it though? I think it falls on the coaching staff as a whole, not just the manager. Maybe I’m wrong, IDK.

At the very least, the manager picks his staff, doesn’t he?

[Mike Sixel]

34 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Stupid? No. A good manager? Certainly debatable. Some here think managers are overrated but also point out his overall record as a reason why he’s above harsh criticism. Not saying you said this but it’s been said here before

Throwing out made up numbers like 43 wins isn't harsh criticism, it's without any rationality at all. And yes, they call him stupid, and only did what the computer says, over and over. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

We’ve seen plenty of Baldelli in 3-plus years to know that for game situations, he’s going to be middle of the pack and make mistakes. 

i commented the other night about how Buxton was inserted in to a one-run game to pinch hit instead of pinch run after a sacrifice, and pretty much got jeered and dismissed. But, no one who replied to me or took the other side of the argument actually addressed the situation on its merits. 

Easier said than done when you’re not the one standing down in the dugout, sure. 

Sometimes teams win despite their managers, and sometimes managers pull all the right strings, and lose anyway. Baldelli was best with Shelton at his side, in my opinion.

 

[Major League Ready]

17 hours ago, Epravens said:

It is based on being a very astute observer and noting that a replacement, virtually any replacement who manages at the professional level, would have won 43 more games during his tenure. Not to question your math skills but last year he was -15 which would have placed them at 88-74, or on the cusp of the post season. Not 106 and whatever. But varying opinions make the world go 'round and enjoyed the discussion. Thank you

A lot of fans believe they are "very astute" observers and also think they know how to manage better than the guy who has the job.  The fact is none of us are remotely qualified for the job and there is a whole lot more to the job than BP management.  Believing we know better is absurd but exceptionally common among fans.   I would bet, you would not be impressed if someone with minimal qualifications came to your office and suggested you don't know what you are doing.  

BTW ... I am guessing they would not pay multiple millions in salary to top managers if an astute fan could do the job.  There are thousands of astute fans and 30 MLB manager jobs.  Supply and demand.

[goulik]

6 hours ago, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Sometimes teams win despite their managers, and sometimes managers pull all the right strings, and lose anyway. Baldelli was best with Shelton at his side, in my opinion.

 

That’s because Shelton had a +24.2 WAR in his time here off setting Rocco’s - WAR. With Wes Johnson leaving ( +8.5 WAR/yr average) we will really see the holes in Rocco’s management…

 

But seriously, what mangers/coaches do to lead and prepare teams for success is 90% or more NOT what happens during a game but in preparation. At the professional level this is also more Mental preparation than physical…

[Richie the Rally Goat]

7 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

At the very least, the manager picks his staff, doesn’t he?

The manager picks his staff, but doesn’t pick the 12 years of amateur and minor league coaches those players had prior.

the game adjusted to the live ball which lasted for 25 years. It’s now adjusting again, right in front of us

[cHawk]

7 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

At the very least, the manager picks his staff, doesn’t he?

I thought that was the GM’s job.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

4 minutes ago, cHawk said:

I thought that was the GM’s job.

Seems to me like the GM has a heavy consult at the very least, and all the way through the minors 

[wsnydes]

31 minutes ago, cHawk said:

I thought that was the GM’s job.

 

25 minutes ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

Seems to me like the GM has a heavy consult at the very least, and all the way through the minors 

Manager would have some say in it since they're the one that has to work and coordinate with them on a daily basis.  Being on the same page and work well together is important.

[Number3]

The best thing a manager can do is not manage too much. When a manager thinks he is making a move that will change the outcome of a game in his team's favor it usually backfires. The game is controlled on the field not in the dugout. You can tell by the Twins box score many times that there is a checkers player trying to play chess.

[cHawk]

35 minutes ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

Seems to me like the GM has a heavy consult at the very least, and all the way through the minors 

I think the GM has the final say

[In My La Z boy]

A proper adjustment he can make today is no more high leverage for Pagan for now. 7 earned runs in his last 2 attempts, and the walks. The Taylor Rogers opening day trade was not Rocco's fault. Next man up please.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

18 minutes ago, Number3 said:

The best thing a manager can do is not manage too much. When a manager thinks he is making a move that will change the outcome of a game in his team's favor it usually backfires. The game is controlled on the field not in the dugout. You can tell by the Twins box score many times that there is a checkers player trying to play chess.

What? How?

I’m at a total loss on this statement.

[wsnydes]

22 minutes ago, Number3 said:

The best thing a manager can do is not manage too much. When a manager thinks he is making a move that will change the outcome of a game in his team's favor it usually backfires. The game is controlled on the field not in the dugout. You can tell by the Twins box score many times that there is a checkers player trying to play chess.

Isn't every move a manager makes intended to change the outcome of a game in his team's favor?  Isn't that the point of the move?

[Aggies7]

Not that we didn’t already know this 

[wsnydes]

1 minute ago, Aggies7 said:

Not that we didn’t already know this 

Right.  And yet its still astounding to actually see statistically.   

[nicksaviking]

9 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

I mean, kind of an unfair comparison considering the makeup of those mid-late 90’s teams especially relative to today’s team. Not too many Carlos Correa’s or Luis arraez’s on those squads. And some fellas on the Gardy teams of the early 00’s cut their teeth under TK. Not the most talented teams but they got the most out of it. I would say those teams were overall less talented than the one we have today. 

 

9 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

At the very least, the manager picks his staff, doesn’t he?

 

35 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Not that we didn’t already know this 

So subpar starters dooming the club is on the GM during TKs run, but poor bullpen arms dooming (get real, this is a good team) the club is on Baldelli.

[Battle ur tail off]

10 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

On pace to win 92 games, two of three years winning the division, and people come here every day to say he's stupid. 

How many playoff wins? How many even competitive games in the playoffs? They've gotten spanked in every playoff game he has managed. 

That is all that matters to me. The front office is who is responsible for season records because over the course of 162 it is the players that make a team what it is or isn't.

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, Battle ur tail off said:

How many playoff wins? How many even competitive game in the playoffs? They've gotten spanked in every playoff game he has managed. 

That is all that matters to me. The front office is who is responsible for season records because over the course of 162 it is the players that make a team what it is or isn't.

But in the postseason it's the manager that wins games? That's a new take for me. So front office/players win regular season games, but postseason record is a manager stat. Interesting.

[MMMordabito]

The blame for the 8th inning should be split three ways.

1) Falvine - Acquire some bullpen help yesterday!  

2)Baldelli - Don't stubbornly place a player who has been playing at sub-replacement level into a critical situation. Part of this is the empty stable, but there is also the option to give a lesser used option a chance.  

3)Pagan/Sanchez - Whatever gameplan those two had drawn up to nibble vs. Kwan and especially Straw was a fail. Straw is in a massive slump right now, and they should know that.  Kwan and Straw have collectively hit 1 home run. Straight pipeshots would have been a better plan than what those two came up with.

[Battle ur tail off]

8 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

But in the postseason it's the manager that wins games? That's a new take for me. So front office/players win regular season games, but postseason record is a manager stat. Interesting.

Yes. I am not being a 100% literal here for sure, but yes.

Over the course of the year, talent will equal itself out. Teams with the most talent generally will win more games over the course of a season.

In one series where the talent is similar, then you are looking for that edge. We don't have it here right now IMO. That doesn't mean it can't or won't happen, but I don't have a ton of faith yet anyway in the old Baldelli.

 

Also, look around. Great managers win in the playoffs much more frequently than average to bad ones. Sometimes with multiple different teams. 

[adjacent]

17 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

I would love to find out if Rocco really is an issue with 4-5 good options to choose from in the bullpen. Currently he has 1.5 good options. Jax is trending the right way but far from proven. 

And don't forget that Suran throws 102 and has very good secondary ptches, but he is a rookie.

[wsnydes]

40 minutes ago, Battle ur tail off said:

How many playoff wins? How many even competitive games in the playoffs? They've gotten spanked in every playoff game he has managed. 

That is all that matters to me. The front office is who is responsible for season records because over the course of 162 it is the players that make a team what it is or isn't.

Aren't the players on the regular season squad also on the playoff squad?  They don't totally reroster the team.  Why would it not be on the FO to build a team that can compete in the regular season AND the postseason?

[Aggies7]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

 

 

So subpar starters dooming the club is on the GM during TKs run, but poor bullpen arms dooming (get real, this is a good team) the club is on Baldelli.

No you misread what I said. We were talking about fundamentals and how this team is not particularly good at the basics of the game.
 

The teams of the 90s were comparatively weak on talent but we’re usually (if memory serves) pretty solid fundamentally. And the roster who started the turnaround in the early 00s (some played for TK) were also comparatively weaker than this club, but somewhat overachieved in part because they played fundamental baseball. Weaker than average teams can win themselves a few more games by being fundamental. The same way Uber talented clubs can lose themselves a few games by being weak fundamentally.
 

This roster is comparatively strong with legitimate stars (buxton, correa, Arraez) but seems to lack the fundamentals. I’m not putting that all on RB because it’s been going on a while. But the drop off in fundamental type players is clearly noticeable. Baserunning has been a bugaboo all season. That can certainly be worked on. Some don’t want to put that on the manager which is weird. Yes teaching these things should be an entire organizational philosophy, but some things can be improved upon by the manager and staff. These things separate good teams from great teams and it’s partly why the twins fail in the postseason when they run up against clubs who are coached and managed better.

[Major League Ready]

1 hour ago, MMMordabito said:

The blame for the 8th inning should be split three ways.

1) Falvine - Acquire some bullpen help yesterday!  

2)Baldelli - Don't stubbornly place a player who has been playing at sub-replacement level into a critical situation. Part of this is the empty stable, but there is also the option to give a lesser used option a chance.  

3)Pagan/Sanchez - Whatever gameplan those two had drawn up to nibble vs. Kwan and especially Straw was a fail. Straw is in a massive slump right now, and they should know that.  Kwan and Straw have collectively hit 1 home run. Straight pipeshots would have been a better plan than what those two came up with.

I am pretty sure their gameplan was not to walk a couple guys and then throw a wild pitch.

[chpettit19]

2 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

No you misread what I said. We were talking about fundamentals and how this team is not particularly good at the basics of the game.
 

The teams of the 90s were comparatively weak on talent but we’re usually (if memory serves) pretty solid fundamentally. And the roster who started the turnaround in the early 00s (some played for TK) were also comparatively weaker than this club, but somewhat overachieved in part because they played fundamental baseball. 
 

This roster is comparatively loaded with legitimate stats (buxton, correa, Arraez) but seems to lack the fundamentals. I’m not putting that all on RB because it’s been going on a while. But the drop off in fundamental type players is clearly noticeable. Some don’t want to put that on the manager which is weird. Yes teaching these things should be an entire organizational philosophy, but some things can be improved upon but the manager and staff.

I think this team is pretty similar to the early 00's teams. Those teams had some legitimate stars as well. Mauer, Morneau, Hunter, Santana, Liriano, Nathan weren't exactly nobodies. I remember a number of awful base running plays in the postseason at Yankee stadium. I agree this team is really frustrating with their fundamentals and it's something they need to improve, but I don't know that they're drastically different than the teams that started the 18 game losing streak.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, Battle ur tail off said:

Yes. I am not being a 100% literal here for sure, but yes.

Over the course of the year, talent will equal itself out. Teams with the most talent generally will win more games over the course of a season.

In one series where the talent is similar, then you are looking for that edge. We don't have it here right now IMO. That doesn't mean it can't or won't happen, but I don't have a ton of faith yet anyway in the old Baldelli.

 

Also, look around. Great managers win in the playoffs much more frequently than average to bad ones. Sometimes with multiple different teams. 

I agree that everything gets amplified in the postseason as the games mean more, but I think you go way too far suggesting that the managers suddenly outweigh the FO/players. Tony La Russa is a Hall of Fame manager and went 1-3 in the postseason last year. Was he a bad manager then? Dusty Baker is a Hall of Fame manager and lost to Brian Snitker in the World Series last year. Was he a bad manager then? Was it Baldelli that made Polanco throw a routine double play ball darn near into right field against the Astros? Or was it the FO who gave Rocco a less than stellar defensive SS and Polanco who actually threw the ball that were at fault? Against the Yankees in 2019 was it Rocco who got Pineda suspended and multiple players hurt late in the year? Dave Roberts has a .571 win percent in the postseason, but only has 1 World Series ring with the most talented team basically every year for the last 7 years. Is he good because he wins 57.1% of the time or is he bad because he only has 1 ring?

[Battle ur tail off]

5 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I agree that everything gets amplified in the postseason as the games mean more, but I think you go way too far suggesting that the managers suddenly outweigh the FO/players. Tony La Russa is a Hall of Fame manager and went 1-3 in the postseason last year. Was he a bad manager then? Dusty Baker is a Hall of Fame manager and lost to Brian Snitker in the World Series last year. Was he a bad manager then? Was it Baldelli that made Polanco throw a routine double play ball darn near into right field against the Astros? Or was it the FO who gave Rocco a less than stellar defensive SS and Polanco who actually threw the ball that were at fault? Against the Yankees in 2019 was it Rocco who got Pineda suspended and multiple players hurt late in the year? Dave Roberts has a .571 win percent in the postseason, but only has 1 World Series ring with the most talented team basically every year for the last 7 years. Is he good because he wins 57.1% of the time or is he bad because he only has 1 ring?

Where did I say they outweigh the players or FO?

 

I just said that you are looking for an edge in the playoffs and Rocco so far has just been a wet noodle when it comes to managing playoff games. In fact, in games that mean anything this year(against teams with winning records and Cleveland, he has been horrible)

Also, all those guys you point to. Let's see their career playoff numbers. 

I also believe Rocco CAN be a positive for us, but right now, I see him as a liability when it comes right down to it. Pulling starters that are cruising is whatever during the regular season because it can save bullets on guys arms, etc., but when you are in the playoffs and have a guy doing well and you yank him after 5 to go to a bullpen that isn't great, that's on him 100%.

I'll give an example Berrios cruising, game close. Put in Cody Stashak who is a bottom of the barrel guy then go to Taylor Rogers on back to back day. Dumb and exactly the kind of stuff a manager that HURTS, does. 

 

Win a game. Any damn game in the postseason and I might change my mind. So far though, his teams have been killed in every game he's managed in October. 

[Battle ur tail off]

Another thing. Give any of those 2 managers you just stated this roster and this weak AL Central and right now there is a pretty good chance they are up by 8-10 games. This roster has quite a darn bit of talent IMO. Honestly, you have 3 of the top 30-ish players in the game on this roster in Buxton, Correa and Polanco.