Managerial questions

[a-wan]

2 hours ago, Epravens said:

 

I would politely suggest this: If Mr. Francona was in the Minnesota dugout and Mr. Baldelli was doing his thing in Cleveland the Twins would have won all 6 games in this series so far and the Guardians would be sucking exhaust fumes instead of having the opportunity to close within one game by tomorrow night. But I will give Mr. Baldelli credit for this: His teams have proven to be remarkably resilient, able to recover from the most gut-punching of losses, which is why I have suggested in the past he is better suited to be a yoga instructor.

I would politely suggest you're more full of rubbish than a land fill full of tires.

Francona is the same manager who got run out of Boston for losing his clubhouse. Cleveland's relievers have over half a run better ERA than the Twins. Cleveland just had a better bullpen.

And the Twins like most teams pull their starters early due to the fact even a mediocre reliever has a better chance against a lineup the first time than a starter does the 3rd and 4th time through. Almost the entire MLB now does this, but of course it is just Baldelli.

[Epravens]

12 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

A lot of fans believe they are "very astute" observers and also think they know how to manage better than the guy who has the job.  The fact is none of us are remotely qualified for the job and there is a whole lot more to the job than BP management.  Believing we know better is absurd but exceptionally common among fans.   I would bet, you would not be impressed if someone with minimal qualifications came to your office and suggested you don't know what you are doing.  

BTW ... I am guessing they would not pay multiple millions in salary to top managers if an astute fan could do the job.  There are thousands of astute fans and 30 MLB manager jobs.  Supply and demand.

When I had an office my job in very large part was to cover the team of which we speak so I would not describe myself as a "fan." A passionate observer certainly since Opening Day 1961 but when one must apply journalistic standards to the subject at hand the fan part of the equation becomes secondary.

[PseudoSABR]

4 hours ago, Epravens said:

Actually I covered this team for more than 4 decades so documenting this sort of thing is in my background and I have been doing so since day one of Mr. Baldell's tenure. But I'm happy to agree to disagree.

You covered them in smatterings of sunflower seed shells? 

And you want us to simply accept your expertise/take your word for it? Appeals to authority don't go very far, especially if you don't have any authority. 

Surely, you can document how you've arrived at -43 WAR for Badelli.  Just like the math teacher wants, let's see your work.  

[Epravens]

1 hour ago, a-wan said:

I would politely suggest you're more full of rubbish than a land fill full of tires.

Francona is the same manager who got run out of Boston for losing his clubhouse. Cleveland's relievers have over half a run better ERA than the Twins. Cleveland just had a better bullpen.

And the Twins like most teams pull their starters early due to the fact even a mediocre reliever has a better chance against a lineup the first time than a starter does the 3rd and 4th time through. Almost the entire MLB now does this, but of course it is just Baldelli.

Sorry but Mr. Francona is playing chess while your guy is still trying to figure outif he has the red or black checkers.

[Brock Beauchamp]

4 hours ago, Epravens said:

Actually I covered this team for more than 4 decades so documenting this sort of thing is in my background and I have been doing so since day one of Mr. Baldell's tenure. But I'm happy to agree to disagree.

Tell me more about this “documenting” because I’m interested what you know that literally all the baseball professionals and people I know personally do not. 

[Epravens]

2 minutes ago, PseudoSABR said:

You covered them in smatterings of sunflower seed shells? 

And you want us to simply accept your expertise/take your word for it? Appeals to authority don't go very far, especially if you don't have any authority. 

Surely, you can document how you've arrived at -43 WAR for Badelli.  Just like the math teacher wants, let's see your work.  

Darn, had I known this was going to be a quiz I would have saved my game story from game 7, 1991, I'm sure at least a few of the posters saw it.

[cHawk]

9 minutes ago, Epravens said:

Darn, had I known this was going to be a quiz I would have saved my game story from game 7, 1991, I'm sure at least a few of the posters saw it.

He’s just asking to see how you calculated Baldelli’s -43 WAR. It can’t be that complicated.

[Epravens]

2 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Tell me more about this “documenting” because I’m interested what you know that literally all the baseball professionals and people I know personally do not. 

Here's what I'm willing to share. I was blessed to be 8 years old when the Senators moved from Washington. I listened to Opening Day from the Bronx in April of '61 on the 830 and was hooked. For the next 12 years i watched or (mostly) listened to at least a portion of every game the franchise played. At that point I was blessed again to begin a career where a significant part of the task from March to whenever was covering the team which is the subject of this blog: the highs, the lows, the wonders of '87 and '91, and the dog days of which there were many. Have I seen it all? Of course not but certainly more than most and I have strong, well-founded opinions, for which I will not apologize. But I do enjoy a lively debate, which is why I visit this blog. Thank you for sharing your opinion.

 

 

[Epravens]

2 minutes ago, cHawk said:

He’s just asking to see how you calculated Baldelli’s -43 WAR. It can’t be that complicated.

It isn't/wasn't.

[PseudoSABR]

5 minutes ago, Epravens said:

Darn, had I known this was going to be a quiz I would have saved my game story from game 7, 1991, I'm sure at least a few of the posters saw it.

Unless that game story had your calculations for Managerial WAR, it wouldn't help you pass this quiz.  That you continue to appeal to authority and emotion rather than showing your work/documentation demonstrates, well, that you seem to be just making things up to buttress your lame opinion as something more than it is.  

To the extent you were actually a sports journalist previously, just has no bearing on how you came up with -43 WAR.  

[cHawk]

7 minutes ago, Epravens said:

It isn't/wasn't.

Then go ahead. Show us.

[Epravens]

2 minutes ago, PseudoSABR said:

Unless that game story had your calculations for Managerial WAR, it wouldn't help you pass this quiz.  That you continue to appeal to authority and emotion rather than showing your work/documentation demonstrates, well, that you seem to be just making things up to buttress your lame opinion as something more than it is.  

To the extent you were actually a sports journalist previously, just has no bearing on how you came up with -43 WAR.  

Okay, please try to follow this. Manager A makes questionable decision, one that would not be made by most professional managers and said decision takes a result that most managers would have placed in the left hand column and places it on the right side of the ledger. For that outcome Manager A receives a WAR of -1. I began my tally in early April of 2019 when the level of inexperience was apparent, although that season said Manager was saved more than once by the Bombo Squad. The number now stands at -43 after a particularly brutish summer of 2021. You asked. I answered and I am done with this topic. Thank you for the discussion. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

22 minutes ago, Epravens said:

Here's what I'm willing to share. I was blessed to be 8 years old when the Senators moved from Washington. I listened to Opening Day from the Bronx in April of '61 on the 830 and was hooked. For the next 12 years i watched or (mostly) listened to at least a portion of every game the franchise played. At that point I was blessed again to begin a career where a significant part of the task from March to whenever was covering the team which is the subject of this blog: the highs, the lows, the wonders of '87 and '91, and the dog days of which there were many. Have I seen it all? Of course not but certainly more than most and I have strong, well-founded opinions, for which I will not apologize. But I do enjoy a lively debate, which is why I visit this blog. Thank you for sharing your opinion.

First, I put forth no opinion.

Second, so you admit you’re just making up numbers. You’re entitled to your opinion of Baldelli, that’s fine. But unless you want to show some work, please stop making up numbers. You’re not actually contributing to the discussion, you’re just trolling. 

[Epravens]

5 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

First, I put forth no opinion.

Second, so you admit you’re just making up numbers. You’re entitled to your opinion of Baldelli, that’s fine. But unless you want to show some work, please stop making up numbers. You’re not actually contributing to the discussion, you’re just trolling. 

Then I certainly apologize as I mistook you sharing the information of all of the people you know as something less than fact. But I get it. This is very much a pro Baldelli board. I'm just not one of his cheerleaders and that's hardly trolling. But again. I'm done with this topic.

[Brock Beauchamp]

33 minutes ago, Epravens said:

Then I certainly apologize as I mistook you sharing the information of all of the people you know as something less than fact. But I get it. This is very much a pro Baldelli board. I'm just not one of his cheerleaders and that's hardly trolling. But again. I'm done with this topic.

And now you’re mistaking me as pro-Baldelli. I’m actually quite disappointed with him in many ways and have said so on multiple occasions.

The reality here is that you’re spitting out numbers from a system you will not define and expecting us to take it as truth.

Defend your position with specifics, then allow the rest of us to argue those specifics upon their merit. No one here is going to just take your word for it, nor should they. 

[PseudoSABR]

19 minutes ago, Epravens said:

Okay, please try to follow this. Manager A makes questionable decision, one that would not be made by most professional managers and said decision takes a result that most managers would have placed in the left hand column and places it on the right side of the ledger. For that outcome Manager A receives a WAR of -1. I began my tally in early April of 2019 when the level of inexperience was apparent, although that season said Manager was saved more than once by the Bombo Squad. The number now stands at -43 after a particularly brutish summer of 2021. You asked. I answered and I am done with this topic. Thank you for the discussion. 

So you're just subjectively tallying things you don't like.  Okay.  That's not Wins Above Replacement for Managers.  That's Epravens' non-scientific point-reduction tally.  

It's fine that you're doing your own thing, but no need to mislead by calling it WAR which is a painstakingly calculated metric. 

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

28 minutes ago, PseudoSABR said:

So you're just subjectively tallying things you don't like.  Okay.  That's not Wins Above Replacement for Managers.  That's Epravens' non-scientific point-reduction tally.  

It's fine that you're doing your own thing, but no need to mislead by calling it WAR which is a painstakingly calculated metric. 

One side effect of this that @Epravens probably hasn’t accounted for is that his system renders Falvey wildly incompetent while Falvey simultaneously steered a franchise to the postseason and first place so many times.

That’s a little weird, to say the least. Someone who has overseen a franchise that wins so much yet hires a manager that is worth about -15 wins a season.

Were the 2019 Twins a 116 win team without Baldelli? Well hell, sign me up for that!

[Epravens]

1 hour ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

And now you’re mistaking me as pro-Baldelli. I’m actually quite disappointed with him in many ways and have said so on multiple occasions.

The reality here is that you’re spitting out numbers from a system you will not define and expecting us to take it as truth.

Defend your position with specifics, then allow the rest of us to argue those specifics upon their merit. No one here is going to just take your word for it, nor should they. 

I'm sorry but it's really very simple. Managers make decisions all the time that impact outcomes and Mr. Baldelli has gone against the grain on 43 occasions that did prove to be a positive when the vast majority of managers would have gone in a different direction and produced a different result. That is my opinion and I'm not inclined to further defend it.

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 minutes ago, Epravens said:

I'm sorry but it's really very simple. Managers make decisions all the time that impact outcomes and Mr. Baldelli has gone against the grain on 43 occasions that did prove to be a positive when the vast majority of managers would have gone in a different direction and produced a different result. That is my opinion and I'm not inclined to further defend it.

So your opinion is that Baldelli is worth -43 wins. That’s fine. It’s also ridiculous.

And if you can’t see that number is ridiculous, you’re ridiculous. 

[Epravens]

5 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

So your opinion is that Baldelli is worth -43 wins. That’s fine. It’s also ridiculous.

And if you can’t see that number is ridiculous, you’re ridiculous. 

Feel free to defend him. -44

[Epravens]

Just now, Epravens said:

Feel free to defend him. -44

Although I didn't think insults were allowed here. Hmmm

[prouster]

1 hour ago, Epravens said:

Then I certainly apologize as I mistook you sharing the information of all of the people you know as something less than fact. But I get it. This is very much a pro Baldelli board. I'm just not one of his cheerleaders and that's hardly trolling. But again. I'm done with this topic.

Your weird partisanship about Baldelli is annoying. I’d guess most people who post here are Baldelli agnostic. There’s a few, like yourself, who hyperbolize his ineptitude and assume everyone who disagrees is “pro” Rocco. Let’s have an interesting discussion, not a Facebook thread. 

[Epravens]

3 minutes ago, prouster said:

Your weird partisanship about Baldelli is annoying. I’d guess most people who post here are Baldelli agnostic. There’s a few, like yourself, who hyperbolize his ineptitude and assume everyone who disagrees is “pro” Rocco. Let’s have an interesting discussion, not a Facebook thread. 

Replay tonight's 10th inning. Case closed.

[ashbury]

8 minutes ago, Epravens said:

Case closed.

No.  You don't get to dictate that.

What precisely would a good manager have done in the bottom of the tenth to assure the win?

[Brock Beauchamp]

6 minutes ago, ashbury said:

No.  You don't get to dictate that.

What precisely would a good manager have done in the bottom of the tenth to assure the win?

When one only works within the parameters of counting negative outcomes, well... I think anyone with even rudimentary math skills can see where that will lead over time.

[Aggies7]

Fool me one, shame on you. Fool me 4 times in 10 days, shame on…? I’m not even mad, it’s simple managerial incompetence.

[Epravens]

5 minutes ago, ashbury said:

No.  You don't get to dictate that.

What precisely would a good manager have done in the bottom of the tenth to assure the win?

I believe his name is Thornburg. But I do know this MOST managers would not have handed the ball to Pagan given the events of the last 10 days. And he had made that decision before Kepler's AB. In what universe would you think he made the proper choice?

[Epravens]

5 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

When one only works within the parameters of counting negative outcomes, well... I think anyone with even rudimentary math skills can see where that will lead over time.

An improper assumption on your part. But whatever. Have a great night!

[Aggies7]

10 minutes ago, ashbury said:

No.  You don't get to dictate that.

What precisely would a good manager have done in the bottom of the tenth to assure the win?

Respectfully, managers can do nothing to assure wins. But they can certainly do things to increase their team’s chances of winning. Putting Pagan in did not do that in the least. Cotton gave up the home run, but I would even trust him more to throw strikes in that situation. That’s what sank pagan. Falling behind. The umpire’s zone shrank but the close pitches were balls.

it’s simply impossible to absolve the manager here.

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, Epravens said:

An improper assumption on your part. But whatever. Have a great night!

You’re fighting an uphill battle here, but I admire it. Funny, I’m known as a baldelli hater on this board but I have no problem saying that his bullpen management was impeccable right up to the point where he decided to tempt the gods. He made the right moves up to that point, even pinch hitting. But some pro Baldelli posters won’t admit this was an inexcusable decision tonight.