5 minutes ago, Battle ur tail off said:

Another thing. Give any of those 2 managers you just stated this roster and this weak AL Central and right now there is a pretty good chance they are up by 8-10 games. This roster has quite a darn bit of talent IMO. Honestly, you have 3 of the top 30-ish players in the game on this roster in Buxton, Correa and Polanco. 

And a bad bullpen. That's the real issue here. 

13 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

I agree, the twins have been poor on the fundamentals for years now. Just today there were at least 3 plays that were nothing more than bad fundamentals (safety squeeze fiasco took the cake). Usually that falls on the manager but apparently some here think Rocco is beyond criticism. And I could understand that with all the postseason success his teams have had 

A guy who is a basket case and doesn't run out of the box on a would be double is not a fundamental issue. A guy missing a sign on the squeeze/safety squeeze, maybe. Everyone should know the signs. Multiple defensive lapses by so called stellar defenders. I guess you can blame Rocco for all these things. 

The bullpen is bad yes, terrible in fact. Except for one guy who is one of the biggest weapons in the whole AL,

That said, 0-5 all of them arse whippings. 

1 minute ago, Schmoeman5 said:

missing a sign on the squeeze/safety squeeze

Miranda said he got the sign correct. He just thought Celestino was actually bunting that pitch. Bad rookie mistake, partly caused by his lack of speed.

3 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

Not that we didn’t already know this 

So this is a Stat that can be manipulated by the Stat geeks who will say something like. Hey look, our bullpen isn't that bad. We're 12th out of 30 teams when in fact it's 1 guy carrying the water. 

26 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

A guy who is a basket case and doesn't run out of the box on a would be double is not a fundamental issue. A guy missing a sign on the squeeze/safety squeeze, maybe. Everyone should know the signs. Multiple defensive lapses by so called stellar defenders. I guess you can blame Rocco for all these things. 

No one is insinuating that it’s 100% anyone’s fault. It never is. Even yesterday, pagan didn’t get it done. But shares the blame with the guy who put him into a situation he doesn’t excel in. And the guys who made the trade to bring him in.

I consider myself to be somewhat educated about the game of baseball, but  maybe I just don’t understand what a manager does for a baseball team anymore. Reading this forum as much as I do, one gets the impression that a manager is responsible for nothing that goes on and the team is going to win and lose only as many games as their talent allows. It’s an odd position to take in defense of a guy who’s teams really haven’t accomplished anything except a division title in a joke season and another title when the ball was juiced to the max.

I understand that some people are going to hate the manager and wrongly blame him for every single thing that goes wrong. But there’s another sect of people who just think he’s merely average at best, and not the guy we think is going to win us some pennants. 

4 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

So this is a Stat that can be manipulated by the Stat geeks who will say something like. Hey look, our bullpen isn't that bad. We're 12th out of 30 teams when in fact it's 1 guy carrying the water. 

Yep, stats should always have some context behind them 

40 minutes ago, Battle ur tail off said:

Another thing. Give any of those 2 managers you just stated this roster and this weak AL Central and right now there is a pretty good chance they are up by 8-10 games. This roster has quite a darn bit of talent IMO. Honestly, you have 3 of the top 30-ish players in the game on this roster in Buxton, Correa and Polanco. 

And Arraez. 

Might be worth pointing out that the Twins have the third most wins in the American League. Sure, they have lost some games. They have had some pretty lousy streaks. Lost to a few terrible teams even. But they don't seem that bad. But then again... it is only the managers fault when they lose. Not when they win. 

2 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

6 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

No one is insinuating that it’s 100% anyone’s fault. It never is. Even yesterday, pagan didn’t get it done. But shares the blame with the guy who put him into a situation he doesn’t excel in.

I consider myself to be somewhat educated about the game of baseball, but  maybe I just don’t understand what a manager does for a baseball team anymore. Reading this forum as much as I do, one gets the impression that a manager is responsible for nothing that goes on and the team is going to win and lose only as many games as their talent allows. It’s an odd position to take in defense of a guy who’s teams really haven’t accomplished anything except a division title in a joke season and another title when the ball was juiced to the max.

I understand that some people are going to hate the manager and wrongly blame him for every single thing that goes wrong. But there’s another sect of people who just think he’s merely average at best, and not the guy we think is going to win us some pennants. 

 

I agree with that. This year there have been a couple of in season firings. When the Phillies fired Girardi they went on a pretty good winning streak and have since leveled off. When the Angels fired Maddon due to a long losing streak. They have played .500 baseball at 9-9. So what I'm getting at is I agree that managers get far too much blame and not nearly enough credit. Let's pretend the Twins win it all in 2022. The majority of TD will still want him gone

1 minute ago, Schmoeman5 said:

I agree with that. This year there have been a couple of in season firings. When the Phillies fired Girardi they went on a pretty good winning streak and have since leveled off. When the Angels fired Maddon due to a long losing streak. They have played .500 baseball at 9-9. So what I'm getting at is I agree that managers get far too much blame and not nearly enough credit. Let's pretend the Twins win it all in 2022. The majority of TD will still want him gone

For me personally as a long suffering MN pro sports fan, any manager or coach who wins a ring is good enough for a lifetime appointment. And I’m not exaggerating.

55 minutes ago, Battle ur tail off said:

I'll give an example Berrios cruising, game close. Put in Cody Stashak who is a bottom of the barrel guy then go to Taylor Rogers on back to back day. Dumb and exactly the kind of stuff a manager that HURTS, does. 

Completely agreed on this point, there's no reason for Stashak to have two career Ls because he pitched in two huge situations in the 2019 and 2020 playoffs. But it would help if the offense bothered to show up come playoff time...

55 minutes ago, Battle ur tail off said:

Win a game. Any damn game in the postseason and I might change my mind.

I think that's incredibly fair, though I wonder if we see the same logic applied to the 2019 season a la "they only won 101 games because of the juiced ball" into something like "the team dragged Rocco to a playoff win". Just seems to me like he never gets credit for anything.

53 minutes ago, Battle ur tail off said:

Another thing. Give any of those 2 managers you just stated this roster and this weak AL Central and right now there is a pretty good chance they are up by 8-10 games

That's completely unbelievable to me, 8 to 10 games?! Those managers would know precisely who was going to implode in the bullpen and make the right move every single time? And they'd be able to improve the players' fundamentals to such a degree that it'd affect our win total by that much? I could see 1-3 games, but 8-10 implies that we have a top 5, if not top 3 roster in all of baseball and that Rocco is a clown who is severely holding this team back.

1 hour ago, Battle ur tail off said:

Another thing. Give any of those 2 managers you just stated this roster and this weak AL Central and right now there is a pretty good chance they are up by 8-10 games. This roster has quite a darn bit of talent IMO. Honestly, you have 3 of the top 30-ish players in the game on this roster in Buxton, Correa and Polanco. 

Yeah, that White Sox team has no good players on it...Luis Robert is trash, so is Tim Anderson, Jose Abreu definitely never won an MVP award, Giolito is a joke of a pitcher, Cease is having a terrible year, Kopech should be DFA'd immediately, Lynn should just retire, Graveman was a waste of a signing, Joe Kelly never should've made the majors, Aaron Bummer is a real bummer as a reliever, Liam Hendricks wouldn't help any pen, Yasmani Grandal is an awful hitting catcher, Eloy Jimenez was injured early on so I guess you're right and the team has no talent. They're definitely playing exactly how everyone thought they would coming into the year. La Russa really has them overachieving. I stand corrected.

11 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

For me personally as a long suffering MN pro sports fan, any manager or coach who wins a ring is good enough for a lifetime appointment. And I’m not exaggerating.

Agreed, I think most folks will change their opinions if Rocco helps get this team to a WS win or even if Kirk Cousins finally gets the Vikings to the promised land, despite their detractors. We can have those debates once we've won it all!

1 hour ago, Battle ur tail off said:

The bullpen is bad yes, terrible in fact. Except for one guy who is one of the biggest weapons in the whole AL,

That said, 0-5 all of them arse whippings. 

The fact that they were all "arse whippings" is not a good argument for it being on the manager. In fact it's the opposite. I don't think Rocco is a great manager. I don't think he's an awful one. He's just another manager, like basically every manager. But to suggest if he was Francona, Baker, La Russa, name your favorite manager ever they'd have turned an ass kicking into a W is crazy. That's far more than "an edge" like you suggest a manager can provide.

29 minutes ago, Muppet said:

Might be worth pointing out that the Twins have the third most wins in the American League. Sure, they have lost some games. They have had some pretty lousy streaks. Lost to a few terrible teams even. But they don't seem that bad. But then again... it is only the managers fault when they lose. Not when they win. 

Not trying to argue, but this is a loser's mentality and attitude. Don't say good enough. We play some of the worst schedule in MLB. Win more, achieve more, go for broke.

 

PS we have played more games than any team in the American league as well. 

19 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Yeah, that White Sox team has no good players on it...Luis Robert is trash, so is Tim Anderson, Jose Abreu definitely never won an MVP award, Giolito is a joke of a pitcher, Cease is having a terrible year, Kopech should be DFA'd immediately, Lynn should just retire, Graveman was a waste of a signing, Joe Kelly never should've made the majors, Aaron Bummer is a real bummer as a reliever, Liam Hendricks wouldn't help any pen, Yasmani Grandal is an awful hitting catcher, Eloy Jimenez was injured early on so I guess you're right and the team has no talent. They're definitely playing exactly how everyone thought they would coming into the year. La Russa really has them overachieving. I stand corrected.

They do not have even close to the lineup the Twins have. You realize we have a top 3 player in baseball and also another one that is probably top 15. 

Buxton, Correa, Aarez, Polanco. Name a foursome that is better offensively. I don't know that there is one. Also, 2 of those guys will win gold gloves this year. 

13 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

The fact that they were all "arse whippings" is not a good argument for it being on the manager. In fact it's the opposite. I don't think Rocco is a great manager. I don't think he's an awful one. He's just another manager, like basically every manager. But to suggest if he was Francona, Baker, La Russa, name your favorite manager ever they'd have turned an ass kicking into a W is crazy. That's far more than "an edge" like you suggest a manager can provide.

My point is he is bad managing a pitching staff. 

Maeda, cruising through 5, zero runs given up, with a lead. Sitting at like 90 pitches after a 1,2,3 inning.  Yanks him and lets the bullpen blow the game. 100% manager right there. 

You don't need an all-star manager to win those decisions. You need any fat guy sitting in left field drinking a beer to tell you keep your horse in there when you have to fall back onto donkeys. 

 

And honestly, you would you thought he learned his lesson after that Houston series. But I see the exact same approach all year long this year. Rely extremely heavily on a very bad bullpen. It has cost us games this year. Quite a few of them actually. When you know your bullpen is your weakness, what are you doing using them so much???

21 minutes ago, Battle ur tail off said:

And honestly, you would you thought he learned his lesson after that Houston series. But I see the exact same approach all year long this year. Rely extremely heavily on a very bad bullpen. It has cost us games this year. Quite a few of them actually. When you know your bullpen is your weakness, what are you doing using them so much???

I agree with this and would like to see the statistics on starting pitchers by team, and pitches thrown. The naked eye test says we don't allow our starters to throw as many pitches as they should/could be throwing - especially considering the troubled bullpen of ours. Is this universal, or do we baby our starters more than most? 

19 minutes ago, Battle ur tail off said:

They do not have even close to the lineup the Twins have. You realize we have a top 3 player in baseball and also another one that is probably top 15. 

Buxton, Correa, Aarez, Polanco. Name a foursome that is better offensively. I don't know that there is one. Also, 2 of those guys will win gold gloves this year. 

Alvarez, Altuve, Tucker, Brantley is a better foursome. So is Trout, Ward, Ohtani, and Walsh. So is Judge, Stanton, Rizzo, and Torres. 

10 minutes ago, In My La Z boy said:

I agree with this and would like to see the statistics on starting pitchers by team, and pitches thrown.

I haven’t looked into this specifically, but a superficial glance at league-wide IP leaders the other day showed that only about 12 or so pitchers (give or take a few) in all of MLB are averaging 6.0 innings per start or higher. It stands to reason that starters are throwing fewer pitches as well, and that it’s not limited to one or even half the teams. 

14 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Throwing out made up numbers like 43 wins isn't harsh criticism, it's without any rationality at all. And yes, they call him stupid, and only did what the computer says, over and over. 

Actually I covered this team for more than 4 decades so documenting this sort of thing is in my background and I have been doing so since day one of Mr. Baldell's tenure. But I'm happy to agree to disagree.

I from time am disappointed in the outcome of Baldillio’s decisions.  And I do my share of bellyache-ing too.  But then I think he does win 2 out 3 seasons near a 60% win ratio. Not many clubs or managers have accomplished that. Managing in 2022 is vastly different the 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s, 00s, 10s. Players, management, & fans have changed considerably.. Managers have to be tech savvy, data base analytical, & excellent communicators.  There may be some truth in an old adage “if you live by the numbers, then, you may die by the numbers”! In baseball there are 2 sets of numbers “for” & “against or contra numbers or moves. We’ll have wait until the 162 game season is over to determine the amount of success.

1 hour ago, Battle ur tail off said:

They do not have even close to the lineup the Twins have. You realize we have a top 3 player in baseball and also another one that is probably top 15. 

Buxton, Correa, Aarez, Polanco. Name a foursome that is better offensively. I don't know that there is one. Also, 2 of those guys will win gold gloves this year. 

I love Buxton. I'm sure that's who you're referring to as a top 3 player in all of baseball. But if you have to add the caveat of "when healthy" then you can't call him that. Take this year. Hot in April cold in May hot in June. Even healthy that's debatable. Trout Tattis Judge Guerrero Jr Harper and a few others. Do the Twins have a good lineup? Yes, I'd even say it's top 6-10. But murderers row it's not

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

The fact that they were all "arse whippings" is not a good argument for it being on the manager. In fact it's the opposite. I don't think Rocco is a great manager. I don't think he's an awful one. He's just another manager, like basically every manager. But to suggest if he was Francona, Baker, La Russa, name your favorite manager ever they'd have turned an ass kicking into a W is crazy. That's far more than "an edge" like you suggest a manager can provide.

 

35 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

I love Buxton. I'm sure that's who you're referring to as a top 3 player in all of baseball. But if you have to add the caveat of "when healthy" then you can't call him that. Take this year. Hot in April cold in May hot in June. Even healthy that's debatable. Trout Tattis Judge Guerrero Jr Harper and a few others. Do the Twins have a good lineup? Yes, I'd even say it's top 6-10. But murderers row it's not

I would politely suggest this: If Mr. Francona was in the Minnesota dugout and Mr. Baldelli was doing his thing in Cleveland the Twins would have won all 6 games in this series so far and the Guardians would be sucking exhaust fumes instead of having the opportunity to close within one game by tomorrow night. But I will give Mr. Baldelli credit for this: His teams have proven to be remarkably resilient, able to recover from the most gut-punching of losses, which is why I have suggested in the past he is better suited to be a yoga instructor.

3 hours ago, Battle ur tail off said:

My point is he is bad managing a pitching staff. 

Maeda, cruising through 5, zero runs given up, with a lead. Sitting at like 90 pitches after a 1,2,3 inning.  Yanks him and lets the bullpen blow the game. 100% manager right there. 

You don't need an all-star manager to win those decisions. You need any fat guy sitting in left field drinking a beer to tell you keep your horse in there when you have to fall back onto donkeys. 

 

Probably more like 25% manager. In case one hasn't been following this organization, this is the new operational directive. It was probably decided 24 hours prior to the game that this is how it would work. Baldelli likely had a seat at the table, but he certainly wasn't running the meeting.

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Alvarez, Altuve, Tucker, Brantley is a better foursome. So is Trout, Ward, Ohtani, and Walsh. So is Judge, Stanton, Rizzo, and Torres. 

Devers, Bogaets, Martinez and Story. Guerrero, Bichette, Springer and Guerriel.

Do we get to play in the NL too? Because the Dodgers, Mets, Giants, Cardinals and Atlanta might have something to say about that too.

Rarely are games such as this both fun and demoralizing at the same time.

3 hours ago, In My La Z boy said:

I agree with this and would like to see the statistics on starting pitchers by team, and pitches thrown. The naked eye test says we don't allow our starters to throw as many pitches as they should/could be throwing - especially considering the troubled bullpen of ours. Is this universal, or do we baby our starters more than most? 

There are currently 18 pitchers in major league baseball that qualify for the ERA title and are averaging at or above 6 innings per start. Sandy Alcantara is the only one averaging over 6.5 and he's actually averaging 7. Quite impressive for todays game.

22 hours ago, Epravens said:

My issues with the Twins manager run much deeper than his often questionable decisions regarding the pitching staff. His teams would consistently receive low marks for fundamentals, situational hitting and the manufacture of runs and those are areas that fall directly on the manager and his staff (and he is responsible for his staff). Good managers can steal games because their teams can beat you with mosquito bites. In close games that matters over a long season, which is a big reason why his WAR is -43.

I couldn’t have said it better myself.