Guardians 3, Twins 2: Pagán Melts Down Again as Smeltzer Gem is Wasted

[Rik19753]

Two things.

 

First, why is Garlick hitting 4th as the DH against a RHP? If you're going to insist on using him, at least bat him in the bottom third of the lineup. His OPS+ against RHP is somewhere in the 50s last I checked.

 

Second, please, just please use Duran for the 8th and 9th innings. I understand you don't want to overwork him, but against your division rival in a doubleheader is a great time to make an exception.

[Aggies7]

Re: pagan, the definition of insanity is…

[Aggies7]

So when the question is “who else”, the answer could very honestly be “anyone”. But we’re all just big meanies towards rocco

[Linus]

More sloppy baseball. The lost fly ball ends up costing them a chance to win the game. This crap is happening way too frequently. 

[rwilfong86]

17 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

So when the question is “who else”, the answer could very honestly be “anyone”. But we’re all just big meanies towards rocco

Especially when EVERYONE in the bullpen was available, except Cotton. I don't see why they didn't let Jax at least start the 8th, he has been a starter, he can try to get 6 outs. 

[Danchat]

1 hour ago, Aggies7 said:

So when the question is “who else”, the answer could very honestly be “anyone”. But we’re all just big meanies towards rocco

And then we'd probably be back here after Thornburg/Duffey/Jax (his past two appearances he has two Ls against the Guardians) and then you'd tell me the answer was that we should have used Duran.

Sure, he's given too much rope to the likes of Colome, Duffey, and Pagan... but it's also been two straight years of the front office butchering the bullpen (the justification of trading Rogers away without a legitimate replacement is baffling). If there is a managerial candidate out there who has proven to be able to navigate a bad bullpen, I'd pull the trigger in a heartbeat... I just don't know if that guy exists.

[Aggies7]

19 minutes ago, Danchat said:

And then we'd probably be back here after Thornburg/Duffey/Jax (his past two appearances he has two Ls against the Guardians) and then you'd tell me the answer was that we should have used Duran.

Sure, he's given too much rope to the likes of Colome, Duffey, and Pagan... but it's also been two straight years of the front office butchering the bullpen (the justification of trading Rogers away without a legitimate replacement is baffling). If there is a managerial candidate out there who has proven to be able to navigate a bad bullpen, I'd pull the trigger in a heartbeat... I just don't know if that guy exists.

Thielbar, Jax, Duran..in that order. Fail with anyone else and I can live with the attempt at at least trying someone else. There literally hasn’t been anyone worse in almost a year than Pagan. Both things can be true: the bullpen was constructed terribly and Rocco continues to use a bad option. I don’t know why people want him to be immune to criticism so badly. Couple playoff appearances with nary a win to show for it. This isn’t a jab at you as I respect your posts.

[prouster]

5 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Thielbar, Jax, Duran..in that order  

Here it is. The secret formula. 

[Aggies7]

13 minutes ago, prouster said:

Here it is. The secret formula. 

I meant that’s who I would have gone with in today’s 8th….

[jmlease1]

I think there was a missed opportunity in not bringing in Duran to pitch the 8th with the top of the lineup coming around, but I also understand the thinking of "we might need this guy to pitch the 9th and face the 3-5 spots in the order" as well. It's a tough call, and the reality is we don't have enough reliable high-leverage arms in the bullpen right now. (YMMV on whether we will have it sorted by Sept) Not having Alcala definitely hurts us here. I would say the FO is going to have to look for reinforcements in the bullpen because I don't think we're going to be able to count on Alcala this season (yes, he might be back in 2 weeks...but he also might have another set back and not be back at all). That said, I do think it's not as easy as some people think to just go out and get a guy right now. There are only a few teams that are truly out of it, but the bigger issue is the teams that are sellers don't want to sell just yet: they want competition to drive up the price of whatever salary/player they're dumping and the buyer market isn't very firm yet, especially for relievers. 

But before we get too lost in losing our minds over the bullpen and Pagan having another blowup, let's not forget the offense only produced 2 runs. I just don't expect a lot of wins when we only score 2 runs. 

[RetractableProof]

I'm no Pagan worshipper, but that was hardly a meltdown.  Two 8-pitch walks and a wimpy single thru a drawn-in infield.

[Squirrel]

13 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

Thielbar, Jax, Duran..in that order. Fail with anyone else and I can live with the attempt at at least trying someone else. There literally hasn’t been anyone worse in almost a year than Pagan. Both things can be true: the bullpen was constructed terribly and Rocco continues to use a bad option. I don’t know why people want him to be immune to criticism so badly. Couple playoff appearances with nary a win to show for it. This isn’t a jab at you as I respect your posts.

I will preface this by saying, I was not a fan of bringing in Pagan where they did. But I'm also not sure I'm in favor of a set 'formula' of this, either. So, when do you use that order ... every game, close games only? What if the meat of the order comes up in the 8th, and that 'meat' has been hitting the ball really well this game, in a 1-run game, you still bring in Jax or should you bring in your most trusted, best reliever to face the best of the other team? Again, I was not in favor of Pagan in the situation yesterday, but I can think of at least one or two reasons why. But I don't think having a set formula as you laid out is the best answer, either, and I think would result in as many losses. Having set 7th, 8th, 9th inning pitchers just doesn't work for me, and, isn't how the game is really played today. (Which, yes, is yet another discussion with much disagreement with the posters here.) But, just because there isn't a 'set' formula, I do think it can also be over-thought, too. So ... put me somewhere in the vast middle between you and Baldelli  

[Aggies7]

36 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

I will preface this by saying, I was not a fan of bringing in Pagan where they did. But I'm also not sure I'm in favor of a set 'formula' of this, either. So, when do you use that order ... every game, close games only? What if the meat of the order comes up in the 8th, and that 'meat' has been hitting the ball really well this game, in a 1-run game, you still bring in Jax or should you bring in your most trusted, best reliever to face the best of the other team? Again, I was not in favor of Pagan in the situation yesterday, but I can think of at least one or two reasons why. But I don't think having a set formula as you laid out is the best answer, either, and I think would result in as many losses. Having set 7th, 8th, 9th inning pitchers just doesn't work for me, and, isn't how the game is really played today. (Which, yes, is yet another discussion with much disagreement with the posters here.) But, just because there isn't a 'set' formula, I do think it can also be over-thought, too. So ... put me somewhere in the vast middle between you and Baldelli  

I’m saying that’s who I would have gone with yesterday. 1) leave jax in another inning or 2) bring in thielbar or 3) put duran in. All of those options are better than EP. It’s probably not possible to have a set order when you have so many inconsistent guys. But one way you could combat the awfulness of the bullpen is to ride the hot hand. 

[Squirrel]

16 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

I’m saying that’s who I would have gone with yesterday. 1) leave jax in another inning or 2) bring in thielbar or 3) put duran in. All of those options are better than EP. It’s probably not possible to have a set order when you have so many inconsistent guys. But one way you could combat the awfulness of the bullpen is to ride the hot hand. 

Ah, okay ... I misunderstood what you were saying ... I also didn't watch the game, but still, following on gameday, I wouldn't have used Pagan there

[Danchat]

16 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

I don’t know why people want him to be immune to criticism so badly. Couple playoff appearances with nary a win to show for it. This isn’t a jab at you as I respect your posts.

Personally, I want to see more blamed be put at the feet of the FO when Rocco is more or less a puppet of theirs. And yes, at least a single playoff win this year is a must or I'm going to be fuming too, promise me. So while I personally don't think much of Rocco (or most managers in general), I'm just tired of seeing him getting scapegoated and seeing us fans assume our ideas on how to use the pen are superior to the coaching staff's. 

[USAFChief]

6 hours ago, jmlease1 said:

I think there was a missed opportunity in not bringing in Duran to pitch the 8th with the top of the lineup coming around, but I also understand the thinking of "we might need this guy to pitch the 9th and face the 3-5 spots in the order" as well. It's a tough call, and the reality is we don't have enough reliable high-leverage arms in the bullpen right now. (YMMV on whether we will have it sorted by Sept) Not having Alcala definitely hurts us here. I would say the FO is going to have to look for reinforcements in the bullpen because I don't think we're going to be able to count on Alcala this season (yes, he might be back in 2 weeks...but he also might have another set back and not be back at all). That said, I do think it's not as easy as some people think to just go out and get a guy right now. There are only a few teams that are truly out of it, but the bigger issue is the teams that are sellers don't want to sell just yet: they want competition to drive up the price of whatever salary/player they're dumping and the buyer market isn't very firm yet, especially for relievers. 

But before we get too lost in losing our minds over the bullpen and Pagan having another blowup, let's not forget the offense only produced 2 runs. I just don't expect a lot of wins when we only score 2 runs. 

Whether the bullpen coughed up a 2-1 lead in the 8th, or a 9-8 lead in the 8th is irrelevant.

Don't blame the offense for a weak pen. The offense handed Rocco and Pagan a one run lead with 6 outs to get.

Losing that game is on the pen.