Guardians 6, Twins 5: Twins Drop Winnable Opener to Guardians

[jorgenswest]

This is on Pagán who wasn’t good enough last night and pitched like his peripherals foreshadowed he would pitch. Ultimately Pagán can shake off any pitch and it looks like he shook off the 3-1 pitch.

Pagán wasn’t good enough in 2020 for the late innings in 2020. He wasn’t good enough in 2021. His ERA looked good this year due to a very high LOB rate. That isn’t a skill. His FIP is 5.56 for this season. I expect he is better than that but not good enough to be part of a playoff bullpen.

I guess this is on Falvey who traded the teams best reliever and now has to add to the cost of that trade by sending prospects to a team to try to replace the reliever they lost. A left handed reliever that would fit perfectly on this team. Whoever we evaluate this trade we need to add the loss of any prospects sent to try to fix this gaping hole.

As Chief send… No team truly serious about contending would make this deal.

[umterp23]

So Gordon tries to steal on an 0-2 count and Cleveland throws high fastball to throwing arm side of the plate where the catcher can easily come out of crouch and throw a bullet to get him out.  Let me say this again, he ran on an 0-2 count.  Baseball IQ?  Just plain dumb baseball.  

[Whitey333]

Not surprised the twins list.  Pagan is an instant heart attack to watch when he comes in.  Twins bullpen is very leaky and fragile.  They have given up a league leading 40 homers.  Yes 40 home runs this bullpen has given up.  Cleveland looks good.  They are on a roll.  They have swagger.  They have a much better manager than twins.  

[Game7-91]

Time to clean house. Herein a list of everyone who should be fired after last night:

	Rocco Baldelli 5 Manager
	Jayce Tingler 33 Bench Coach
	Rudy Hernandez 63 Hitting Coach
	David Popkins 79 Hitting Coach
	Tucker Frawley Infield and Catching Coordinator
	Wes Johnson 47 Pitching Coach
	Luis Ramirez 91 Assistant Pitching Coach
	Hank Conger 35 First Base/Catching Coach
	Tommy Watkins 40 Third Base Coach
	Pete Maki 88 Bullpen Coach
	Bill Evers 67 Major League Coach
	Tony Diaz 46 Assistant Bench Coach
	Nate Dammann 75 Quality Control Coach
	Garrett Kennedy 97 Bullpen Catcher
	Connor Olson 98 Bullpen Catcher
	Packy Casey 48 Assistant Coach
	Chad Jackson Minor League Medical Coordinator

Chairman: Jim Pohlad

Board Member: Bill Pohlad

Board Member: Bob Pohlad

Board Member: Dave St. Peter

Bat boys

Ball boys

Bat girls

Ball girls

Wally the Beer Man

Corey Povus

Dazzleman 

Bremer

Entire TV crew

 

[Karbo]

8 hours ago, VivaBomboRivera! said:

So, who called for Pagan to throw one slider after another to the Franimal? 

Madness.

That's the question I was asking. Why didn't Jeffers go out and talk him into trying something else? Or is this another case of sticking with the "plan"? Or maybe Pagan felt he couldn't get control of anything else? I for one would sure like to know.

[MinnInPa]

twins just cant develop hard throwing miss bats relievers..the ones we are dancing back and forth from St Paul cant get AAA batters out -- Moran, Cotton, Cano, etc.. and no way are we winning the central with the likes of what we trot out there now..Duffy, Pagan, Duran, Jax, Theilbar and Smith.. none ....absolutely none of them can be trusted. I still Trust Ryan and Gray as starters..but Archer (NO), Bundy(NO)...horrible pitching staff.. BUT, they cant be blamed for the meat of order going down K K K in extras last nite..PATHETIC !!!

[wabene]

From the looks of this thread the season is over. Ah well I've got my summer free I guess. Adios. 

[Karbo]

7 hours ago, Mark G said:

Can someone answer the question:  why won't Baldelli sacrifice the runner over to 3rd in extra innings?  Far wiser folks than myself have asked (and asked, and asked..........) this question and I have never heard/read an answer.  When are we going to accept the fact that a runner on 2nd is not necessarily in scoring position.  Can't score on a fly ball, well placed ground ball, passed ball/wild pitch........any or all of the above.  When you HAVE to have a hit to the outfield to score are you truly in "scoring position"?  Put the pressure on the pitcher/defense and make them work, not just play their shifts at normal depth and make you work.  Hell, we don't even make the defense play for the possible bunt, because they know we won't do it.  I know he has said his analytics say the sacrifice doesn't pan out often enough to use it and all that, but in the 10th?  Tie score?  Handed a runner on 2nd?  What have you got to lose?  

I know I am spitting into the wind, so to speak, when it comes to Rocco, but if someone has an insight as to why he is so dogged in his approach, maybe I will stop spitting.  

Rocco manages off a spread sheet. I don't think he can manage using his "gut instincts" the way a guy like Francona does. Until Rocco can incorporate a "feel for the game" in with those spread sheets and game plans he and the powers that be come up with this team will probably be what we see. A talented yet underperforming team.

[Aggies7]

Most disappointed in correa. Holy Jeeze man we needed a bat on the ball there in the worst way. And if you bunt him they just walk Kepler and we get Sanchez, possibly the worst guy for that situation. 

[In My La Z boy]

Trust the plan?

[BH67]

Having the winning run on 2nd with nobody out and Buxton, Correa, Kepler and Sanchez up should result in the run scoring.  Not even putting a ball in play is beyond disheartening.   This offense is either in feast or famine mode, and that more than anything will impair any hopes for October.

Nonetheless, there are significant overdoses of ipecac among the commentariat here.  Minnesotans aplenty go this route due to the frequent, colossal ineptitude of Minnesota's professional and major-revenue collegiate teams over the last half century.  If past performance ensures a future result, however, then I'm using the 1987 and 1991 Twins as my baseline, and not the latest reference tweeted by a Star Tribune sports columnist.

It's baseball.  It's not my raison d'être.

[Squirrel]

11 minutes ago, Karbo said:

Rocco manages off a spread sheet. I don't think he can manage using his "gut instincts" the way a guy like Francona does. Until Rocco can incorporate a "feel for the game" in with those spread sheets and game plans he and the powers that be come up with this team will probably be what we see. A talented yet underperforming team.

A talented underperforming team … inconsistent bats that too often do not come through when needed. Not sure that’s a spreadsheet problem. And a not talented enough bullpen, imo. I’d call that a FO blame more than a spreadsheet problem, for not stocking the bp with the necessary arms. You have a starter who went 6, he used Pagan and Duran correctly, imo … and we lost. But this time I don’t think it was Rocco and the spreadsheets. I’m not a Rocco fan, but I’m not a dislike, either, I’m meh on him, but this loss is not on Rocco and his spreadsheets, imo

[Squirrel]

4 minutes ago, BH67 said:

It's baseball.  It's not my raison d'être.

I like that, might have to use that as my new mantra.

[MABB1959]

They need to let the starters go longer and learn how to work themselves out of a jam.  

[TwinsDr2021]

35 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Most disappointed in correa. Holy Jeeze man we needed a bat on the ball there in the worst way. And if you bunt him they just walk Kepler and we get Sanchez, possibly the worst guy for that situation. 

Having the bases loaded with no outs is a bad thing?

EDIT: Having the bases loaded with one out is a bad thing?

[Aggies7]

7 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Having the bases loaded with no outs is a bad thing?

There would have been one out had they sacrificed him. Sanchez and Urshela were up next, they went a combined 0-9 with 6 k’s

[TwinsDr2021]

16 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

A talented underperforming team … inconsistent bats that too often do not come through when needed. Not sure that’s a spreadsheet problem. And a not talented enough bullpen, imo. I’d call that a FO blame more than a spreadsheet problem, for not stocking the bp with the necessary arms. You have a starter who went 6, he used Pagan and Duran correctly, imo … and we lost. But this time I don’t think it was Rocco and the spreadsheets. I’m not a Rocco fan, but I’m not a dislike, either, I’m meh on him, but this loss is not on Rocco and his spreadsheets, imo

Agree, I can't complain about Ryan's usage, or how he used Pagan and Duran. I also agreed with stealing Gordon (I would have done it one of the two pitches prior. The part I would complain is not bunting Buxton/Correa in the 10th.

[Dave The Dastardly]

Patience grasshoppers. Last year the Twins would've lost this game by the fifth inning. This year they were in it until the end. Next year, if the young guys capitalize on the major league experience they gain this year and Rocco learns to manage by the "feel" of the game instead of relying solely on preordained "plans" the Twins will be the ones in the winner's circle. So pull your head out of the noose, stock up on your favorite beverage and focus on the younger players' development.

Oh, the occasional stiff shot of Jameson will help.

[chpettit19]

41 minutes ago, Karbo said:

That's the question I was asking. Why didn't Jeffers go out and talk him into trying something else? Or is this another case of sticking with the "plan"? Or maybe Pagan felt he couldn't get control of anything else? I for one would sure like to know.

Franmil Reyes was hitting .121, and slugging .121, against sliders going into that at bat. All 4 of his previous HRs came on fastballs. Along with both of his doubles. Last year he hit .219 on breaking balls and .278 on fastballs. In 2020 he hit .155 on sliders and .323 on fastballs. Has slugged over 100 points higher against fastballs each of the last 3 years. He's a vastly better fastball hitter than slider hitter. But any pitch directly down the middle has the chance of going the other way at a very high rate of speed no matter who the hitter is. Throwing a bad slider hitter sliders isn't a bad choice, it was just poorly executed. 

[Squirrel]

19 minutes ago, MABB1959 said:

They need to let the starters go longer and learn how to work themselves out of a jam.  

That was not the issue in this game, though. Six innings for Ryan was fine.

[MABB1959]

16 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

That was not the issue in this game, though. Six innings for Ryan was fine.

The bullpen always makes me nervous.  

[Squirrel]

2 minutes ago, MABB1959 said:

The bullpen always makes me nervous.  

Yeah, me too ... it's why whenever someone says we need to trade for a starter, I counter ... no ... BP arms (plural); GOOD BP arms (plural). We might not always like Rocco's usage, but he doesn't have a lot to work with, imo. 

[LastOnePicked]

Starting to look like this team was more like preseason predictions: Hover around .500, might be in the Wild Card conversation. That Spring surge was a lot of fun, but this team's wings are looking like they've been clipped.

If they can't move on from Duffey and Pagan, they've got no chance for a postseason. None.

 

[dex8425]

8 hours ago, Mark G said:

Can someone answer the question:  why won't Baldelli sacrifice the runner over to 3rd in extra innings?  Far wiser folks than myself have asked (and asked, and asked..........) this question and I have never heard/read an answer.  When are we going to accept the fact that a runner on 2nd is not necessarily in scoring position.  Can't score on a fly ball, well placed ground ball, passed ball/wild pitch........any or all of the above.  When you HAVE to have a hit to the outfield to score are you truly in "scoring position"?  Put the pressure on the pitcher/defense and make them work, not just play their shifts at normal depth and make you work.  Hell, we don't even make the defense play for the possible bunt, because they know we won't do it.  I know he has said his analytics say the sacrifice doesn't pan out often enough to use it and all that, but in the 10th?  Tie score?  Handed a runner on 2nd?  What have you got to lose?  

I know I am spitting into the wind, so to speak, when it comes to Rocco, but if someone has an insight as to why he is so dogged in his approach, maybe I will stop spitting.  

Buxton led off. First, having him bunt is borderline stupid anyway as he's 2nd in AL in homers. However, he did show bunt early in the count, then only saw one strike and walked. You would want Correa to bunt then? I've never seen Correa even try to bunt nor heard of him doing it. 

[dex8425]

43 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Agree, I can't complain about Ryan's usage, or how he used Pagan and Duran. I also agreed with stealing Gordon (I would have done it one of the two pitches prior. The part I would complain is not bunting Buxton/Correa in the 10th.

Buxton showed bunt, but then didn't see another strike and walked. 

[chpettit19]

"Rocco is too stuck with his 'grand plans,' just does what the spreadsheet tells him to, and doesn't adjust for the situation! The Twins need to fire him!" 

"Bunt Buxton/Correa because that's what the 'grand plan' is when the winning run is on second, what the 'right way to play the game' says you should do, and who the hitters are in that situation shouldn't make you adjust the plan! I should be manager so I can follow my 'grand plans' that are obviously smarter than Rocco's!"

Fans, and their thought processes, are truly fascinating.

[PDX Twin]

3 hours ago, h2oface said:

Because our guys are horrible bunters. Pop it up. It really is sad.

Whose fault is that? Players learn to bunt, or not, as they develop through the minor league system. The majority of the Twins' players are home-grown, so if they can't bunt it is TOTALLY the Twins' fault.

[PDX Twin]

3 hours ago, h2oface said:

Because our guys are horrible bunters. Pop it up. It really is sad.

Whose fault is that? Players learn to bunt, or not, as they develop through the minor league system. The majority of the Twins' players are home-grown, so if they can't bunt it is TOTALLY the Twins' fault.

Apologies for the double post. The box didn't go away so I thought the first time I hit the button it didn't take.

Edited June 22, 2022 by PDX Twin

[TwinsDr2021]

55 minutes ago, dex8425 said:

Buxton led off. First, having him bunt is borderline stupid anyway as he's 2nd in AL in homers. However, he did show bunt early in the count, then only saw one strike and walked. You would want Correa to bunt then? I've never seen Correa even try to bunt nor heard of him doing it. 

Did the Twins need 2 runs to win the game, nope just one, and they had a guy at second with no outs. So it sounds like they were thinking of bunting Buxton since he attempted it and the Indians pitcher walked him. So now they have base runners at first and second with no outs. If they were willing to bunt Buxton, why not Correa? Because they were afraid they would walk Kepler?  Of course the next three guys struck out and they still had runners at first and second. Watching the replay's of those three at bats, Kepler looked like the only one of the three even trying to just get the ball into play. IMO

[chinmusic]

3 hours ago, Jeff D. said:

But your sentence "Outside of Arraez, nobody really makes the pitcher WORK on a consistent basis.", is so very accurate

Kepler's generally very good at working the count.