What did we think of Alex Kirilloff return?

[FlyingFinn]

16 minutes ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

It seems unlikely that the DFA candidates (Gordon, Garlick)

I thought Garlick had one option left but I must be wrong. I don't see Celestino being sent down because he is our best CF not named Byron. Kirilloff will not be optioned as the Twins aren't wasting an option on him after 10 AB's. Make sure Polanco is fully ready, maybe waiting a bit longer to bring him back and see if anyone gets injured. I would actually DFA Gordon because we now have another bench position player but Miranda could be sent down to work on being more selective on pitches.

[jimbo92107]

Of all the problems I see with the Twins, Kirilloff isn't one of them. He's a superb hitter, and he will soon make the adjustments needed to rake at the mlb level. He will be a high-average power hitter.

[mnfireman]

If you count the last 4 games he played before being sent back to AAA, Kirilloff is slashing .300/.333/.400 for an OPS of .733, which puts his OPS+ around 115 (Kepler's season OPS is .735 for an OPS+ of 115). SSS I know, but TD posters tend to manipulate player stats to fit their narrative of a player.

He has also been shifted on 40 of 42 plate appearances this season, but hit 4 of 7 balls in play to left over the weekend. Continuing to do so may force opponents to play him more straight up, opening up the field a little more. His exit velocity this weekend was also 96.2. Perhaps good things lie ahead.

Oh yeah, Celestino is 1-9 and Larnach is 2-12 over their most recent appearances, so they obviously aren't MLB ready either.  

[RpR]

2 minutes ago, mnfireman said:

Oh yeah, Celestino is 1-9 and Larnach is 2-12 over their most recent appearances, so they obviously aren't MLB ready either.  

Celestino is needed as he is the only one with the range in center field; but you  make a good point.

[Azviking101]

14 hours ago, RpR said:

He has had 39 at bats and so far the have all looked similar,  you can have hope, against hope but that is not how it works in the Majors, they did that with Cave.

I am not a fan of Larnach but he was humming right along with his bat, now he is in a funk but Kirilloff has not been even close to what Larnach was/or is.

Mike Trout had a .672 ops in his first 40 games in the majors. That was season 1 for him. Obviously the Angels should have given up on him. RpR is the next baseball genius ?

[stringer bell]

I have posted opinions about each of the players in question. I think the Twins are most likely to find an injury before any of the five is optioned or DFAed. 
 

Regarding Kirilloff, I’ll be disappointed if he doesn’t put up above-average numbers going forward. 
 

Miranda needs to be more selective, and play better defense. Larnach needs to go back to the all-fields approach that netted him a .300 average and 130 OPS through May.  Celestino has benefited from an unsustainable BABiP, but he’s lacking in power and he’s not fast enough that his legs are a weapon. Gordon is versatile and runs well, but he’s a “break glass in an emergency” shortstop. Garlick is a real power threat against left handed pitching, and totally replaceable in every other aspect. 

[RpR]

23 minutes ago, Azviking101 said:

Mike Trout had a .672 ops in his first 40 games in the majors. That was season 1 for him. Obviously the Angels should have given up on him. RpR is the next baseball genius ?

Jake Cave had a .786 OPS his first 91 games up , I guess he should be a full time player; obviously you are not a baseball genius.?

[Trov]

Personally, I could care less about the SSS numbers, Correa started off the year hitting terrible numbers wise, but he was hitting the ball hard and then eventually found the holes.  I was mainly wanting to address that Alex seemed be back hitting the ball hard and unlike the beginning of season where he was hitting weak contact like every at bat.  

[cheeseheadgophfan]

Kirilloff hadn't had an extra base hit all season.....he hit 2 doubles over the weekend.  I hope that's a sign that he is feeling healthy.  I think Garlick is the odd man out....

[RpR]

12 minutes ago, cheeseheadgophfan said:

Kirilloff hadn't had an extra base hit all season.....he hit 2 doubles over the weekend.  I hope that's a sign that he is feeling healthy.  I think Garlick is the odd man out....

Kirilloff 39 at bats, 7 singles , 2 doubles.

Garlick 68 at bats 15 singles, 1 double, 6 homr runs.

The extreme bias against Garlick by some here is obvious.

[bighat]

8 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Alex Kirilloff has been hurt for the majority of his time in the bigs. You're completely Ignoring that. Pretending that his first stint this year was an indication of his healthy performance is naive at best. Wrist surgery is a legitimate reason for him to not have results.

I must have missed something - is the league giving out points and awards for being injured? Last time I checked, being hurt all the time doesn't count for diddly. There are hundreds of first round draft picks who had a bum knee, an elbow, or a wrist keep them from becoming big stars. It happens every year, all the time, to many players on every team. Kirilloff has the same chronic injury keeping him out again this year - what's so special about 2 doubles in AZ?

I really am cheering for Kirilloff, Larnach, Jeffers - all of them. I'm just stunned at the pure blind homerism, where you're all creating this magical world where these guys are All-Stars and you're all feeding this fantasy about how great these guys are and how great they're going to be. Based on what? 8 homers in 250 ABs? The straight facts are that none of these guys have done ANYTHING. Eddie Rosario's Twins career is running circles around these guys and at this rate they'd be thrilled if they could even sniff 30 HRs or 100 RBI.

No results = no results. What we have from Kirilloff is 8 homers in 250 ABs, and a bad injury track record. Two doubles in AZ, good for him. Now let's start seeing some 4-hit games. Let's start seeing some multi-homer games. That shouldn't be too much to ask, should it? Or do these guys deserve a few more years to work out the kinks?

 

[chpettit19]

8 minutes ago, bighat said:

I must have missed something - is the league giving out points and awards for being injured? Last time I checked, being hurt all the time doesn't count for diddly. There are hundreds of first round draft picks who had a bum knee, an elbow, or a wrist keep them from becoming big stars. It happens every year, all the time, to many players on every team. Kirilloff has the same chronic injury keeping him out again this year - what's so special about 2 doubles in AZ?

I really am cheering for Kirilloff, Larnach, Jeffers - all of them. I'm just stunned at the pure blind homerism, where you're all creating this magical world where these guys are All-Stars and you're all feeding this fantasy about how great these guys are and how great they're going to be. Based on what? 8 homers in 250 ABs? People: these haven't done ANYTHING. Eddie Rosario's Twins career is running circles around these guys and at this rate they'd be thrilled if they could even sniff 30 HRs or 100 RBI.

No results = no results. What we have from Kirilloff is 8 homers in 250 ABs, and a bad injury track record. Two doubles in AZ, good for him. Now let's start seeing some 4-hit games. Let's start seeing some multi-homer games. That shouldn't be too much to ask, should it? Or do these guys deserve a few more years to work out the kinks?

 

This thread is about Alex Kirilloff's return. His return was 2 starts and a pinch hitting appearance. Nobody has crowned him MVP. The thread isn't even about Larnach or Jeffers so I'm not sure why you bring them up since you're the only one talking about them here. Well, I do know why you bring them up and it's because you think it helps you prove a point about Kirilloff. It doesn't.

In Kirilloff's return (again, that's what this thread is about) he had 10 plate appearances. 5 of those ended with him hitting the ball at elite exit velos. It's weird to me that a few of you get so amped up to put down players you supposedly cheer for. Maybe re-read what the thread is about. Kirilloff's return was every bit as good as we could have hoped. He absolutely smashed the ball. 4-hit and multi-homer games are a ridiculous performance expectation level. If he goes 4-5 with 2 HRs tonight are you sold? Oh, and he had a 2 HR game last year so I guess you're sold on him now.

You can absolutely not feel like he's arrived and proven himself. I don't think anyone here is claiming he's an established star. But using his stats while he was injured to suggest that he's not talented is disingenuous. You can absolutely take a realistic stance of his injury concerns being a real thing. They are. But using them to suggest his recent healthy performance means nothing is a little absurd, no? Suggesting 72 games, most of which he was injured for, is any sort of indication of the player someone will be is an awful baseball take. Through Mike Trouts first 273 PAs (the same number as Kirilloff now) he had 10 HRs. Did he deserve a few more years to work out the kinks? The posts I'm seeing here are saying Kirilloff mashed AAA to a crazy extent and it's now time to see what he can do at the major league level. The first 10 PAs were encouraging. They don't currently have any established player who should be playing ahead of him against righties. Nobody is saying he should replace Correa or Buxton in the lineup. We're saying his first 10 PAs back were very encouraging, and since he's been a fantastic prospect his whole life there's a real reason for hope with him. As long as he can stay healthy.

[LA VIkes Fan]

I agree and frankly, this team needs you to be right. Our offensive inconsistency is the result of being at least 2 players short to hit in run producing spots. Kepler is a nice player but he is not a number 5 or 6 hitter. He should be hitting 7 or later. Same for Urshela, same for Sanchez. Larnach can't hit breaking balls, Miranda is a maybe, Celestino has no power and is regressing to the mean. We have 4 quality hitters, 3 against LH if Arraez sits, and you need 5 or 6 Plus guys like Kepler, Sanchez and Urshela to have a consistent offense. We're 2 short. I'm hoping Kirilloff can fill in one of those 2 spots.  My fantasy is Miranda can fill the other.  Bottom line is at least one of those 2 needs to step up as a 5 or 6 hitter.  

[cheeseheadgophfan]

1 hour ago, RpR said:

Kirilloff 39 at bats, 7 singles , 2 doubles.

Garlick 68 at bats 15 singles, 1 double, 6 homr runs.

The extreme bias against Garlick by some here is obvious.

Garlick is 30......Kirilloff is 24....they need a 1B and I think AK is a very good defensive 1B.  Just my thoughts.

[bighat]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

4-hit and multi-homer games are a ridiculous performance expectation level. If he goes 4-5 with 2 HRs tonight are you sold? Oh, and he had a 2 HR game last year so I guess you're sold on him now.

If he goes 4-5 with 2 HRs tonight you're damn right I'll be sold. At least we'll have seen some flash of some potential. And yes, we absolutely have the right - no, we should EXPECT - our most highly touted hitter in years to be able to put together multi-hit nights. To be able to catch fire. Carry the team. Hit homers and get hot. That's what good baseball players do.

 

 

[FlyingFinn]

1 hour ago, bighat said:

If he goes 4-5 with 2 HRs tonight you're damn right I'll be sold.

2 for 2 so far with 2 rbi's.......................

[LA VIkes Fan]

Key hit and what this team desperately needs.... run production from someone outside the of the top 4, tonight top 3. Kirilloff bats 5 tomorrow. 

[chpettit19]

13 hours ago, bighat said:

If he goes 4-5 with 2 HRs tonight you're damn right I'll be sold. At least we'll have seen some flash of some potential. And yes, we absolutely have the right - no, we should EXPECT - our most highly touted hitter in years to be able to put together multi-hit nights. To be able to catch fire. Carry the team. Hit homers and get hot. That's what good baseball players do.

 

 

The best hitters in the history of baseball didn't top 3% if their games as 4 hit games, but that's what we should expect from Kirilloff? Pete Rose has the most 4 hit games ever. 73 total, which accounted for 2% of his games. When the guy with the most hits in the history of baseball had 73 total games over 24 seasons (that's 3 times a season) it is quite easy to say expecting 4 hit games is a ridiculous performance expectation level.

And if 2 homerun games is a "flash of potential" and all you're looking for I already pointed out that Alex Kirilloff has already accomplished that. He did it his rookie year.

2 for 3 with another double (that's now 3 doubles in 3 starts since his return) and 2 RBIs doesn't even meet your ridiculous standards. He added another ball hit 106 MPH (the double) and his single was hit an embarrassing 93.5. So in 13 PAs since being back he's hit 7 balls over 90 MPH and 6 of them over 97. No "flashes of potential" anywhere to be found.

[stringer bell]

Kirilloff has struck out three times since his return. IIRC, all three Ks were called and all were out of the TV strike zone box. 

[Trov]

1 hour ago, stringer bell said:

Kirilloff has struck out three times since his return. IIRC, all three Ks were called and all were out of the TV strike zone box. 

If I recall a couple were off the plate too. I know the box is not fully accurate on the up and down, but it should be very accurate as to the width of the plate. 

[RpR]

6 hours ago, stringer bell said:

Kirilloff has struck out three times since his return. IIRC, all three Ks were called and all were out of the TV strike zone box. 

Then foul them off like top players do, do not stand their and watch.  He had a good night last night but was pulled for a reason.

I watched most of the game on Gamecast and the umpire was not as bad as some said by that box; if it was on the edge of the box, fifty-fifty chance whether a strike or ball. (perhaps the ump sees the catcher playing the moving glove game and decides he has had enough of it.)

[Thegrin]

I'm buying myself a Kiriloff jersey. I'm planning on wearing it for a long, long time.

[chpettit19]

50 minutes ago, RpR said:

Then foul them off like top players do, do not stand their and watch.  He had a good night last night but was pulled for a reason.

I watched most of the game on Gamecast and the umpire was not as bad as some said by that box; if it was on the edge of the box, fifty-fifty chance whether a strike or ball. (perhaps the ump sees the catcher playing the moving glove game and decides he has had enough of it.)

James Hoye last night called 97% of actual balls balls (110 for 113), and 89% of actual strikes strikes (58 for 65). He was about average for a major league ump in both of those cases. He had an overall accuracy percent of 94 (again, league average), and a consistency percent of 94 as well (still league average). Unfortunately for the Twins the majority of his missed calls went against them. Based on fancy analytics the Guardians gained 1.36 runs from missed ball/strike calls. Twins fans actually have a gripe this time, even if that isn't always the case.

The goal is not a "fifty-fifty chance" of a ball on the edge of the box being a strike. The goal is that strikes are called strikes (and batters swing at them with 2 strikes) and balls are called balls (and batters don't swing at them no matter how many strikes they have on them). The most impactful missed call was actually Kirilloff's AB in the bottom of the 7th when he called a ball a strike with a full count. A top player doesn't swing at ball 4, by the way.

Also weird that you'd argue that Kirilloff, or any hitter, should swing at borderline pitches because the ump "has had enough of" the "moving glove game" by the catcher. If the ump is sick of the catcher moving the glove on borderline pitches wouldn't he call them balls to get back at the catcher, and thus the hitter shouldn't be swinging?

[RpR]

2 hours ago, Thegrin said:

I'm buying myself a Kiriloff jersey. I'm planning on wearing it for a long, long time.

I wore a Joe Kapp Jersey till it fell off due to lack of material, go for it.

[LA VIkes Fan]

2 hours ago, RpR said:

Then foul them off like top players do, do not stand their and watch.  He had a good night last night but was pulled for a reason.

I watched most of the game on Gamecast and the umpire was not as bad as some said by that box; if it was on the edge of the box, fifty-fifty chance whether a strike or ball. (perhaps the ump sees the catcher playing the moving glove game and decides he has had enough of it.)

You may be right, but that is the kind of thing that comes with experience. The good hitters learn that on the 50/50 balls, or even the 40/60 balls, with two strikes you just flip it foul if you can't drive it. Kirilloff needs those at bats to start making that adjustment. I think he needs to be getting 4 to 5 plate appearances per game between now and the All-Star break. He can play LF, 1B, or even DH. Of all the "young guys" on the team, he looks like he has the best chance to be that elusive number 5 hitter we so desperately need to try to get ourselves some offensive consistency.

[Trov]

18 hours ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

You may be right, but that is the kind of thing that comes with experience. The good hitters learn that on the 50/50 balls, or even the 40/60 balls, with two strikes you just flip it foul if you can't drive it. Kirilloff needs those at bats to start making that adjustment. I think he needs to be getting 4 to 5 plate appearances per game between now and the All-Star break. He can play LF, 1B, or even DH. Of all the "young guys" on the team, he looks like he has the best chance to be that elusive number 5 hitter we so desperately need to try to get ourselves some offensive consistency.

I find it interesting people attack the hitter for taking a pitch that by the rules is a ball, but say he should try to foul it off, something this not as easy as some may think, because the ump may be wrong.  In the call the other night it was off the plate, if he swings at it trying to foul it off, but misses, people would be upset he chased it off the plate and start talking about chase rates. 

[Trov]

His at bat late in the game last night where he clearly just tried to slap the ball through the big hole on the left side shows me a lot.  He knew all he had to do was get it hard enough that direction for a hit, and he did it.  Soon teams will stop shifting him so much. 

[RpR]

The fact he never came near stopping the errant pick-off throw and the ball that went under his glove, shows he has serious problems that have to be addressed, in AAA.

[Major League Ready]

On 6/22/2022 at 8:42 AM, Trov said:

If I recall a couple were off the plate too. I know the box is not fully accurate on the up and down, but it should be very accurate as to the width of the plate. 

He showed a really good eye and got burned for it.  I may have called the umpire a bad name.

[Brock Beauchamp]

On 6/21/2022 at 10:52 AM, mnfireman said:

If you count the last 4 games he played before being sent back to AAA, Kirilloff is slashing .300/.333/.400 for an OPS of .733, which puts his OPS+ around 115 (Kepler's season OPS is .735 for an OPS+ of 115). SSS I know, but TD posters tend to manipulate player stats to fit their narrative of a player.

He has also been shifted on 40 of 42 plate appearances this season, but hit 4 of 7 balls in play to left over the weekend. Continuing to do so may force opponents to play him more straight up, opening up the field a little more. His exit velocity this weekend was also 96.2. Perhaps good things lie ahead.

Oh yeah, Celestino is 1-9 and Larnach is 2-12 over their most recent appearances, so they obviously aren't MLB ready either.  

I suspect teams are going to stop shifting Kirilloff in a hurry. He's not Luis Arraez but he's also not a pure power hitter. He's a really nice mix of gap power and decent average. He's what baseball needs a lot more of right now, guys who hit for decent-but-not-spectacular power but rip liners everywhere.