Rocco Baldelli: suffering from success

[Doctor Gast]

2 hours ago, a-wan said:

Roster construction is not on the manager, that is the FO. While all managers have some input it stills falls on the FO. When Winder was not in the rotation and was available he was long relief, so when available Baldelli did use long relief. Same thing with CF backups. He was given Cave, Nelson Cruz in a mobility scooter and a prayer to play CF. 

I acknowedge that the FO has the final word yet many FO rely very heavily on their managers and it's very difficult to point out where exactly the blame lies. But in some points I assume more blame on one than the other.  Case of point Colume', FO got him for Baldelli and I believe FO strongly influenced Baldelli to give Coulome' every chance to shine, so Colume' IMO is mainly on FO.

On the other hand this off season FO stated that this year they were going to go more with the piggy-back approach ( a system that focus on long relief) to aid the young arms and the type of pitchers they were focusing on. The 1st game (Ryan) and 5th game (Archer) Winder pitched 3 innings I believe, perfect but after that Winder was sparsely used and when he did pitched it was for only 2 innings at the most. (To effectively incorporate the piggy-back system we would need both Winder and Smeltzer to pitch regularly for aproximately for 3 innings.)

Consequently there were injuries and Winder was called to start, long relief was no more and  shortly he was injured. FO made their objectives very clear and the opposite occured. So I assume that the reduction and eventually elimination of long relief and the injuries & ineffectiveness that followed is on Baldelli.

[TheLeviathan]

24 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

I acknowedge that the FO has the final word yet many FO rely very heavily on their managers and it's very difficult to point out where exactly the blame lies. But in some points I assume more blame on one than the other.  Case of point Colume', FO got him for Baldelli and I believe FO strongly influenced Baldelli to give Coulome' every chance to shine, so Colume' IMO is mainly on FO.

On the other hand this off season FO stated that this year they were going to go more with the piggy-back approach ( a system that focus on long relief) to aid the young arms and the type of pitchers they were focusing on. The 1st game (Ryan) and 5th game (Archer) Winder pitched 3 innings I believe, perfect but after that Winder was sparsely used and when he did pitched it was for only 2 innings at the most. (To effectively incorporate the piggy-back system we would need both Winder and Smeltzer to pitch regularly for aproximately for 3 innings.)

Consequently there were injuries and Winder was called to start, long relief was no more and  shortly he was injured. FO made their objectives very clear and the opposite occured. So I assume that the reduction and eventually elimination of long relief and the injuries & ineffectiveness that followed is on Baldelli.

Well that's the thing about believing.....it isn't a fact.  Can you clarify this stance in light of Winder's actual game log?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=windejo01&t=p&year=2022

Note that Ober went on the DL on the 28th, hence his move to the rotation.  How did any of this cause injury?

 

[Doctor Gast]

29 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Well that's the thing about believing.....it isn't a fact.  Can you clarify this stance in light of Winder's actual game log?

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.fcgi?id=windejo01&t=p&year=2022

 

Thanks so much Leviathan. Going by memory isn't exact so thanks again for these facts. Winder didn't pitch in the 1st game, he only pitched in 3 games in long relief for 10.1 innings spanning the month of April. Which proves how little long relief was used before it was eliminated in the beginning of May.

[TheLeviathan]

10 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

Thanks so much Leviathan. Going by memory isn't exact so thanks again for these facts. Winder didn't pitch in the 1st game, he only pitched in 3 games in long relief for 10.1 innings spanning the month of April. Which proves how little long relief was used before it was eliminated in the beginning of May.

Because we lost too many starters to continue it.  That context is sorta crucial....no?

[Doctor Gast]

1 minute ago, TheLeviathan said:

Because we lost too many starters to continue it.  That context is sorta crucial....no?

If you get my point we need a proper balance of SPs, long RPs and short RPs. Establishing a strong relief corp and use them routinely  this will take the pressure off the short relief and rotation therefore resulting stronger & more effective arms. That mean bringing up Smeltzer right away and using both him & Winder much more frequently . Not using long relief enough puts more pressure on short RPs and then SPs, resulting in burnt out arms, more frequent and severe injuries. W/O those injuries we can maintain that balance 

[TheLeviathan]

8 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

If you get my point we need a proper balance of SPs, long RPs and short RPs. Establishing a strong relief corp and use them routinely  this will take the pressure off the short relief and rotation therefore resulting stronger & more effective arms. That mean bringing up Smeltzer right away and using both him & Winder much more frequently . Not using long relief enough puts more pressure on short RPs and then SPs, resulting in burnt out arms, more frequent and severe injuries. W/O those injuries we can maintain that balance 

I get your point but I am pointing out injuries derailed that.  Injuries that happened while following the plan you imply would've prevented injuries. How is that on Rocco?  He can't call people up either.

They used Winder and Jax and others for multi inning stints until they lost Gray and Ober.  Two weeks later Bundy and Paddock.  Two weeks later Winder and Ryan.

Everyone has a plan until injuries punch your 40 man in the face.  They no longer had the healthy humans to do that.  Yet you blame Rocco.  How?  He followed the plan until he simply couldn't.

[Azviking101]

Until he wins a playoff series he is no different than Gardy and Molitor.

[Doctor Gast]

4 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

I get your point but I am pointing out injuries derailed that.  How is that on Rocco?  He can't call people up either.

They used Winder and Jax and others for multi inning stints until they lost Gray and Ober.  Two weeks later Bundy and Paddock.  Two weeks later Winder and Ryan.

Everyone has a plan until injuries punch your 40 man in the face.  They no longer had the healthy humans to do that.  Yet you blame Rocco.  How?  He followed the plan until he simply couldn't.

 

10 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

I get your point but I am pointing out injuries derailed that.  How is that on Rocco?  He can't call people up either.

They used Winder and Jax and others for multi inning stints until they lost Gray and Ober.  Two weeks later Bundy and Paddock.  Two weeks later Winder and Ryan.

Everyone has a plan until injuries punch your 40 man in the face.  They no longer had the healthy humans to do that.  Yet you blame Rocco.  How?  He followed the plan until he simply couldn't.

You are saying our injuries are bad luck (I'd grant you Ryan (covid) maybe Paddack is, more bad judgement in trading for him) but I say it's bad management.

Winder pitched 3 games for 10.1 inngs in long relief after him Jax came up. Although  he can be used as long relief he has only pitched 31.1 innings in 21 games, in my head that 1.5 innings a game that's not long relief (I couldn't find if he pitched any games over 3 innings). 

Baldelli's plan is 1 SP + 4 or more short RPs no long RPs. You need proper balance in everything if you limit or eliminate one point you over extend the other points producing injuries. If the proper balance was introduced and maintained through out, we wouldn't have most of those injuries thus keeping the balance intact. That's my point

 

[a-wan]

17 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

 

You are saying our injuries are bad luck (I'd grant you Ryan (covid) maybe Paddack is, more bad judgement in trading for him) but I say it's bad management.

Winder pitched 3 games for 10.1 inngs in long relief after him Jax came up. Although  he can be used as long relief he has only pitched 31.1 innings in 21 games, in my head that 1.5 innings a game that's not long relief (I couldn't find if he pitched any games over 3 innings). 

Baldelli's plan is 1 SP + 4 or more short RPs no long RPs. You need proper balance in everything if you limit or eliminate one point you over extend the other points producing injuries. If the proper balance was introduced and maintained through out, we wouldn't have most of those injuries thus keeping the balance intact. That's my point

 

Again, you're saying it is Baldelli. These are the pitchers he's been given. Without Winder, the relievers he's been given are short relievers. Baldelli can't just go to Pagan, or Theilbar and say you're going 3 innings today after they've pitched as a one inning guys. You're attributing things to Baldelli he can't control.

[TheLeviathan]

45 minutes ago, Doctor Gast said:

 

You are saying our injuries are bad luck (I'd grant you Ryan (covid) maybe Paddack is, more bad judgement in trading for him) but I say it's bad management.

Winder pitched 3 games for 10.1 inngs in long relief after him Jax came up. Although  he can be used as long relief he has only pitched 31.1 innings in 21 games, in my head that 1.5 innings a game that's not long relief (I couldn't find if he pitched any games over 3 innings). 

Baldelli's plan is 1 SP + 4 or more short RPs no long RPs. You need proper balance in everything if you limit or eliminate one point you over extend the other points producing injuries. If the proper balance was introduced and maintained through out, we wouldn't have most of those injuries thus keeping the balance intact. That's my point

 

I get your point.  It's not logical or consistent.  You claim better use of long relief would save injury, then proved they used it early on, but somehow miss the fact that injuries occurred during that period you claim would prevent injuries.  Then they had to repeatedly mine the depth that would have been used because of a decimated depth chart.

Your criticism has zero merit and makes a deliberate effort to be unfair by ignoring context.

To quote someobe earlier: fabricated my ass.  This is the problem the OP is talking about.

[Doctor Gast]

12 minutes ago, a-wan said:

Again, you're saying it is Baldelli. These are the pitchers he's been given. Without Winder, the relievers he's been given are short relievers. Baldelli can't just go to Pagan, or Theilbar and say you're going 3 innings today after they've pitched as a one inning guys. You're attributing things to Baldelli he can't control.

If you go to my orignal text, maybe you'll understand a little better. I'm tired of going around in cicles explaining the same thing.

[Doctor Gast]

2 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

 then proved they used it early on, but somehow miss the fact that injuries occurred during that period you claim would prevent injuries.  .

The problem is they never established a viable long relief corp at any anytime. They made a feable attempt at it with Winder with  3 time for 10'1 innings for all ofApril. That's what decimated our pitching and has snowballed. If you want to blame Baldelli or FO I don't care. I just know that FO stated their objective of having a viable long relief and it seems that this FO relies heavily on Baldelli and a viable long relief wasn't established.

I'm not saying In any way fire Baldelli. When I see a problem I point it out. That's it.

[TheLeviathan]

1 hour ago, Doctor Gast said:

The problem is they never established a viable long relief corp at any anytime.

We made it!  This is not on Baldelli choice.  Yet your argument was to pin it on Baldelli.

OP's thesis in a nutshell.

[Aerodeliria]

On 6/15/2022 at 4:07 AM, Major League Ready said:

I heard an interview on satellite radio with a guy from Fangraphs I believe.  He specifically singled out  Baldelli's handling of the pitching staff and gave him high praise.  The fact that you would do it differently is far from proof he is doing it wrong.

BTW ... Pay attention to what the people around him including the players say about him.  Every person he has worked with sings his praises.  His players, coaches, and people outside the organization respect him and speak very highly of his baseball IQ and how he handles players in general.  

Fans thinking they know how to manage or coach better than the managers and coaches is almost a tradition in professional sports.

Yeah what you say is accurate to be sure, but players, coaches and even other professionals tend to heap praises on their bosses and so do people outside of the organizations. It is an exceptionally rare case when a player or another professional trashes someone publicly. There is usually a price to pay for such diatribe. What is heartfelt is difficult to measure. I'm not saying that this is not how folks really feel about Baldelli; I'm sure there are plenty of insiders who do love him, but I am not sure that we can get an accurate picture of what people are really thinking until we get the 'tell all' book. It's kind of like when someone quits a company; suddenly people start saying all kinds of things about that person that no one could have guessed a week before the person quit.

[Blyleven2011]

15 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I would bet a large sum of money that they do.

. 

Thanks  .... 

I'll keep that in mind when I respond for those FO people that are reading ....

[ashbury]

On 6/15/2022 at 9:31 AM, Blyleven2011 said:

I think it would be great if the FO and Rocco  would read twins daily 

15 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I would bet a large sum of money that they do.

For the record, I for one welcome our FO overlords.

[Riverbrian]

7 hours ago, ashbury said:

For the record, I for one welcome our FO overlords.

[Riverbrian]

10 hours ago, Aerodeliria said:

Yeah what you say is accurate to be sure, but players, coaches and even other professionals tend to heap praises on their bosses and so do people outside of the organizations. It is an exceptionally rare case when a player or another professional trashes someone publicly. There is usually a price to pay for such diatribe. What is heartfelt is difficult to measure. I'm not saying that this is not how folks really feel about Baldelli; I'm sure there are plenty of insiders who do love him, but I am not sure that we can get an accurate picture of what people are really thinking until we get the 'tell all' book. It's kind of like when someone quits a company; suddenly people start saying all kinds of things about that person that no one could have guessed a week before the person quit.

Yep

The colleges are spitting out graduates with degrees in public relations. These graduates are hired and it is their job to influence public discourse. 

We will never know because we don't handle the information very well so therefore we are handled. 

The reality is that words speak louder than actions. Therefore do your best to focus on the action because that is what we are distracted from. 

Action: Rocco was hired by the front office and he still is employed by the front office. If there were issues, there would be turnover in this high turnover position. 

[Major League Ready]

38 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Yep

The colleges are spitting out graduates with degrees in public relations. These graduates are hired and it is their job to influence public discourse. 

We will never know because we don't handle the information very well so therefore we are handled. 

The reality is that words speak louder than actions. Therefore do your best to focus on the action because that is what we are distracted from. 

Action: Rocco was hired by the front office and he still is employed by the front office. If there were issues, there would be turnover in this high turnover position. 

Very good point.  I would add that we can decipher the merit of the praise if we pay attention to the sources, how the information comes to our attention and the subtleties of how the information is presented.  For example, it's obvious when an interviewer is kissing someone's butt with praise.  The validity of the information is far different when two industry people are talking.  There is also a big difference between a player praising his manager in comparison to a Fangraphs guy talking about very specific data they have compiled in regard to how Baldelli has managed the pen.  There are many other examples but you get the drift.  It's not that hard to sort out what is ass kissing and what's legit praise.

[TwinsDr2021]

22 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Sure, but I'm speaking of the Brewers community at large, including what I've seen on Twitter, Reddit, and other places.

They have a much more balanced take on Counsell than Twins fans do on Baldelli. And while the Brewers haven't had the colossal failures in the postseason, Brewers fans are still very frustrated that with their pitching corps, they haven't even made the World Series. But instead of micro-analyzing Counsell and laying an undue amount of fault at his feet, they tend to focus more on front office and ownership, which also is more balanced and fair. Counsell couldn't grab a bat and hit in last year's NLDS and Brewer fans acknowledge that. They still gripe at him for a myriad of things - his usage of Keston Hiura being an obvious point to bring up - but they don't go find things to blame on Craig Counsell.

Which is kinda what Twins fans do to Baldelli on a near-nightly basis.

Counsell took over Roenicke in 2015, and had one bad year than 86, 96,89,29 and 95 wins. 4 consecutive playoff appearances.  In 2018 in the playoffs they beat Colorado 3 games to  0 and lost to Dodgers in 7 games, (6 playoff wins in one season), 2019 lost a wild card game 4 - 3 with their closer blowing a lead. In 2020 got sweep (2 games) by the Champion Dodgers in two close games (4-2, 3-0).  2021 they lost to the Champion Braves in 4 games.

The Twins haven't even lost to the team that has went to the world series let alone won one (or two).

I can see why the fans might have a little different perspective on their manager, fair or not.

People/fans aren't always rationale, and that should be OK.

If you look close real at this thread, the people calling people names aren't the ones that don't like Rocco.

[Doctor Gast]

19 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

We made it!  This is not on Baldelli choice.  Yet your argument was to pin it on Baldelli.

OP's thesis in a nutshell.

From the very beginning I've agreed with you that FO has the final say on the roster.

Where we disagree is you say that Baldelli has no say in about the roster therefore there is no blame on him.

My point is he has a lot of influence on the FO on who is put on the roster. 

Falvey and echoed here on TD stated that they wanted to established a piggy-back system (which establishes a predominate long relief corp) . Can you agree?

Although FO can have some say on base decision on how to use each pitcher. Baldelli has the delegated right to decide on which RP, when and how long he can pitch. For example Baldelli doesn't call FO to see which player he can play or substitutes during the game. Am I wrong?

Under that premise if FO has the totaliterian right to chose, they would choose around 3 long RPs. But in fact Winder was the sole person selected as long relief. The discrepency from FO phylosophy and actual roster selection under my assumption is that FO wanted a good working relationship with their manager. So they sat down with Baldelli and asked him about his strategy. Therefore there was a compromise, Winder as the sole lone long RP, Baldelli's phylosophy of relying so much on short relief has been obvious when he didn't use  Winder regularly, only 3x for 10.1 innings for the month of April before we needed him at SP thus long relief role was empty because they didn't call up Smeltzer.

I favor the Falvey's phylosophy and I credit Baldelli's phylosophy as the result of our predicament,

 

 

 

 

[Gene Gomes]

The Twins are winning close games more often than losing close games. This could be a result of temporary good fortune, bad opponents, or good managing. 
Putting the franchise’s #1 prospect out in centerfield was one of the worst decisions I have ever seen anywhere.

The constant shuffling of the batting order, even when there are no injuries,  is not conducive to players getting into a routine- which all players crave. An ex-player should know this.

Baldelli should seek training to become a better manager, but shouldn’t be fired at this point.

[Schmoeman5]

Here's my 2 cents. I don't think Baldelli is a good mgr nor do I think he's a bad mgr. I'm not taking the easy route here, but let's compare Baldelli to Gabe Kapler. He got ran out of Philly and that maniacal fan base was overjoyed. He went to SF and his first 2 years there was not well received  either. The thought was he handled the pitching and the bullpen all wrong too. In today's game the majority of the moves are made before the game even starts. So if a SP is slated to go 4 or 5 or 6 it doesn't matter if he's being shelled or if he's pitching a shutout. The FO has basically tied the managers hands in regards to moves made. They will make bench moves, but the analytics pretty much determine those moves as well. I would say Cash Baldelli and Kapler as well as others are scrutinized so much for 2 reasons. Reason 1. They don't win in playoffs. Reason 2. Their personalities. These guys don't get all amped up win or lose and I believe that gets misconstrued as to not caring. They don't get all fired up at press conferences or on the field. It's a different game and a different world today. Personally I think today's game can be managed by an I-pad, a phone and a monkey

[Jack Griffin]

27 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

 I would say Cash Baldelli and Kapler as well as others are scrutinized so much for 2 reasons. Reason 1. They don't win in playoffs.

You think Rays manager Kevin Cash, who has won 4 playoffs series since 2019 and was in the World Series in 2020, gets scrutinized for not winning in the playoffs?

[Schmoeman5]

20 minutes ago, Jack Griffin said:

You think Rays manager Kevin Cash, who has won 4 playoffs series since 2019 and was in the World Series in 2020, gets scrutinized for not winning in the playoffs?

Yes. How about game 6 WS when he pulled I forget his name. Mr I put my life in the line. Blake Snell. If that's not scrutinized I don't know what is

[chpettit19]

21 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

The problem is they never established a viable long relief corp at any anytime. They made a feable attempt at it with Winder with  3 time for 10'1 innings for all ofApril. That's what decimated our pitching and has snowballed. If you want to blame Baldelli or FO I don't care. I just know that FO stated their objective of having a viable long relief and it seems that this FO relies heavily on Baldelli and a viable long relief wasn't established.

I'm not saying In any way fire Baldelli. When I see a problem I point it out. That's it.

I think you're overstating the stance the FO took during the offseason. They said they'd look to get creative and piggy-back situations may be part of that, but I don't remember any quotes of where they expressed that was the be-all, end-all plan for the season. The quotes I remember were mentioning those sorts of things as possibilities depending on how the offseason came together around the lockout, etc. 

Suggesting Winder was that plan at the start of the year is suggesting that they went into the offseason expecting Winder to be on the opening day roster, and not him having performed so well in ST that he took the job. I don't think there's any proof that Baldelli talked them out of long relief in any way, shape, or form, and I don't think there's any proof that they went into this season looking to have a solid long relief stable. I think the truth is they went with 1 long reliever (Winder) just like they had the season before (Dobnak), and got the same result of an injury altering the plan almost immediately. 

If the plan was to go big on piggy backing early they would've had more than just Winder available for long relief. Baldelli is absolutely part of discussions about pitching strategy, along with Wes, but to suggest the FO had a plan and he talked them out of it is a real bold statement. It's not often a boss in a job with such high turnover rates let's one of their employees talk them out of their strategy.

[Brock Beauchamp]

4 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Baldelli is absolutely part of discussions about pitching strategy, along with Wes, but to suggest the FO had a plan and he talked them out of it is a real bold statement. It's not often a boss in a job with such high turnover rates let's one of their employees talk them out of their strategy.

My understanding is that Johnson mostly runs the pitching decisions and usage over Baldelli, which makes sense given that Baldelli was a position player with little coaching experience.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

My understanding is that Johnson mostly runs the pitching decisions and usage over Baldelli, which makes sense given that Baldelli was a position player with little coaching experience.

That would make sense.

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, Gene Gomes said:

The Twins are winning close games more often than losing close games. This could be a result of temporary good fortune, bad opponents, or good managing. 
Putting the franchise’s #1 prospect out in centerfield was one of the worst decisions I have ever seen anywhere.

The constant shuffling of the batting order, even when there are no injuries,  is not conducive to players getting into a routine- which all players crave. An ex-player should know this.

Baldelli should seek training to become a better manager, but shouldn’t be fired at this point.

I don't like guys bouncing up and down the lineup as frequently as it feels like it happens, but it's pretty typical in today's game. The players have established routines, but that isn't based around where they are in the lineup, or even if they're in the lineup. The players know well before we do whether they're playing in a certain game or not and can adjust based on that. But they have the same routine every game day. Every player not named Shoemaker has had nothing but praise for Baldelli and the Twins. It's hard for me to imagine that Nelson Cruz and Marwin Gonzalez would tell Carlos Correa good things about Baldelli if they're frustrated with his lineup management and that they could never get into a routine. That argument feels far more like people not in the know basing things on their guesses and not actual evidence of anything.

As for putting Lewis in CF, I don't get the backlash there. He's played it before. Was the correct answer to leave one of their top 5 or 6 players in AAA because he couldn't be trusted to run around the OF? His injury is absolutely brutal, and I can't imagine the frustration he must be facing, but there doesn't have to be blame for every bad thing that happens. He tore his ACL on a play that that knee was barely involved in. That's a freak accident and it sucks. 

[Squirrel]

3 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

It's hard for me to imagine that Nelson Cruz and Marwin Gonzalez would tell Carlos Correa good things about Baldelli if they're frustrated with his lineup management and that they could never get into a routine.

And Archer did his 'research', too ... talked to his pal, Odorizzi, who gave nothing but high praise.