Rocco Baldelli: suffering from success

[Number3]

  On 6/15/2022 at 2:05 PM, alexthegreat said:

Okay but how do you know that he had nothing to do with it? And if having the all time MLB HR record causes the 2019 season to not count, shouldn’t literally constant injuries and a hodgepodge pitching staff cause the 2021 season to not count?

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Maybe Baldelli in 2019 did instruct the players to hit as many home runs as they could. If he hadn't it never would have happened. As far as injuries and hodge podge pitching is concerned, name a manager who doesn't have to contend with either or both.

[Number3]

  On 6/15/2022 at 2:54 PM, Jack Griffin said:

 

Intentionally walking a batter with 2 strikes to face a batter that has hit lefties better than righties in his career is about as un-analytic as you can get. He was making a very old school decision, to get a lefty vs lefty matchup, so exactly the opposite of what the original reply states.

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You are right, he should have read the geeks' spread sheet. That part of my post still stands including outfielders carrying cheat sheets with them when they take the field. I am totally against all of that bs as well as qbs with head phones in their helmets in the NFL. Why wasn't the Astros stealing signs considered to be analytics? They were simply using technology to gain an advantage. By the way, the best teams still seem to win, the game is what has suffered in the process and might as well be played by robots. May the best robot win.

[prouster]

  On 6/16/2022 at 1:31 PM, Number3 said:

Maybe Baldelli in 2019 did instruct the players to hit as many home runs as they could. If he hadn't it never would have happened. As far as injuries and hodge podge pitching is concerned, name a manager who doesn't have to contend with either or both.

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Are you suggesting that the manager has to tell players to hit home runs?

[wabene]

  On 6/16/2022 at 1:41 PM, Number3 said:

You are right, he should have read the geeks' spread sheet. That part of my post still stands including outfielders carrying cheat sheets with them when they take the field. I am totally against all of that bs as well as qbs with head phones in their helmets in the NFL. Why wasn't the Astros stealing signs considered to be analytics? They were simply using technology to gain an advantage. By the way, the best teams still seem to win, the game is what has suffered in the process and might as well be played by robots. May the best robot win.

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[Squirrel]

  On 6/16/2022 at 1:41 PM, Number3 said:

You are right, he should have read the geeks' spread sheet. That part of my post still stands including outfielders carrying cheat sheets with them when they take the field. I am totally against all of that bs as well as qbs with head phones in their helmets in the NFL. Why wasn't the Astros stealing signs considered to be analytics? They were simply using technology to gain an advantage. By the way, the best teams still seem to win, the game is what has suffered in the process and might as well be played by robots. May the best robot win.

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Stealing signs using technology is illegal. That isn't analytics. You are conflating quite a few complaints here with legitimate discussion.

 

[Mortimerkenny21]

I would guess that Rocco does like winning...I bet that he doesn't hate it. He's human, I'm sure he loves baseball. I'm sure he loves his team and his players! Some decisions turn out great, some not so great. Hopefully we get more of the great decisions. But every time something goes south it's pretty easy to scrutinize and complain.  I know I don't have any analytics or stats. Just my opinion..everyone has one, just like everyone has a....you know.

[Major League Ready]

  On 6/15/2022 at 6:53 PM, KirbyDome89 said:

I guess you missed the bolded? I highlighted it because it's what I referred to. 

Your first two paragraphs aren't in question. At all. 

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You have chosen to steer this away from the point which was quite clearly about the opinion others held about management not whether you had a right to question management.  The point was also that you have chosen to ignore very good information because it does not support your position. 

[Adam Krueger]

Can we stop with the articles telling fans how we should feel about _____? To talk about MN sports is to talk about a fan who is, within sports at the moment, in a fairly unique position. As we all know, not a single major pro sports team has won a championship in this town since 1991. In the last 20 years, the combined playoff records (playoffs, not regular season) for the Twins, Vikings, Wild and Timberwolves is 59-122 (.326). I feel that when the regular fan is in the midst of any given season that isn't a complete wash (ala Twins 2021), the scrutiny is high because the end goal is in mind. Making the playoffs is not the goal for the MN every-fan...its winning a damn championship. So yeah - winning is great, much preferred to losing, but when the fan complains about Baldelli, damn it, they are allowed to feel that way until one of these perennial losers finally breaks through and wins it all...

[Squirrel]

  On 6/16/2022 at 3:13 PM, Adam Krueger said:

Can we stop with the articles telling fans how we should feel about _____? To talk about MN sports is to talk about a fan who is, within sports at the moment, in a fairly unique position. As we all know, not a single major pro sports team has won a championship in this town since 1991. In the last 20 years, the combined playoff records (playoffs, not regular season) for the Twins, Vikings, Wild and Timberwolves is 59-122 (.326). I feel that when the regular fan is in the midst of any given season that isn't a complete wash (ala Twins 2021), the scrutiny is high because the end goal is in mind. Making the playoffs is not the goal for the MN every-fan...its winning a damn championship. So yeah - winning is great, much preferred to losing, but when the fan complains about Baldelli, damn it, they are allowed to feel that way until one of these perennial losers finally breaks through and wins it all...

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You are welcome to not read or participate in discussions where you don't like the topic. As much as you might want to feel one way and express it, others are allowed to feel another and express that, too. Disagree and rebut one another's posts all you want, that's the point. As long as the disrespect, uncivility and name calling stay out of it. But the thing is ... we ARE winning more than we are losing and from a lot of the posts we see, you wouldn't know it. And it's mostly about the way baseball is played today that is the larger issue and many posters here seem to centralize and blame Baldelli for something that is prevalent everywhere in the sport and not just here. I don't like it much, either, but as long as we are winning, I will abide and center my complaints square where they need to be, on Manfred and the MLB.

That said, there have been many articles that are also critical of Baldelli and various underperforming players and the decisions made regarding those players.

And, just for the record for everyone ... being critical is far different from whining and complaining and name calling. Being critical is what we expect. We ask that posters rebut the topic presented, rebut the posts you disagree with, and not use these forums as a place to unload general complaints just to complain that neither address the topic of discussion nor are constructive

[Unwinder]

I think people's perception of Baldelli is almost entirely determined by how they feel about the highly-analytic, low-gut-instinct strategy of baseball he represents. If you think it's a bad way to play baseball, you're going to think he's bad no matter what results he gets. If you think it's a good way to play baseball, you're going to like him. If you think it's an effective way to win but it's bad for the sport, you probably feel lukewarm on him.

[Jack Griffin]

  On 6/16/2022 at 3:21 PM, Squirrel said:

But the thing is ... we ARE winning more than we are losing and from a lot of the posts we see, you wouldn't know it. And it's mostly about the way baseball is played today that is the larger issue and many posters here seem to centralize and blame Baldelli for something that is prevalent everywhere in the sport and not just here.

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This is the main point that influenced my article.

Searching through discussions, 90 percent of the complaints on Baldelli are:

-He's a nerd, geek, etc...

-He's a "puppet" for the front office

-He doesn't watch the game, he just looks at spreadsheets (Analytics)

-He treats all the players like babies by giving them off-days

-He is incompetent with his in game decisions, with no argument provided

All things with extreme negativity and no actual legit criticism 

[Unwinder]

  On 6/16/2022 at 12:14 PM, Riverbrian said:

I would bet a large sum of money that they do.

Not many humans have the ability to stay away from a place where others are talking about you. 

Like putting your tongue on a canker sore. You can be reasonably certain that they frequent Twinsdaily. 

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Almost certainly true, I am a web cartoonist with a moderate following on Twitter, and I can't stay away from forums where people discuss my stuff.

[Doctor Gast]

Very intriquing article, I like Baldelli and some credit goes to him for winning but a lot of credit needs to go to Sheldon & the core of players & coaches together with the juiced ball in 2019 and the shortened season 2020. And some instances we won  not because of him but inspite of him. His mindsets (No need for depth at CF,where Cave is the sole CFer back up when he's not a CFer) ( Polanco was an All Star SS) etc. Finally he has overcome some of them.

Although I like a lot old school - bunting, hitting where they aren't, stealin bases, hit & run although I like having 5 work horses SPs but times have changed and pitchers have changed. LaRussa is very old school, IMO he let Rodon go because he couldn't go 7+ innings  throughout the season and I think that was a waste. IMO CWS fans are getting fed up with him.

There needs to be a balance you need common sense together with the analytics. I get it using 3-6 short RPs per game but it's difficult to have & keep that many short RPs and depend so much on them w/o burning them out. Long relief very rarely enters his mind (maybe only when FO brings it to his attention) So when he's wearing his short relief thin he over stretches his rotation and they get injured & burned out, The idea is having everyone healthy, strong & fresh for the post season. Ignoring long relief is a bad idea especially for a shrinking roster, 1 long RP can substitude about 3-4 short RPs so you don't need as many pitchers. Long relief is the solution to the short relief overload.

Winning can be deceiving because you think you are doing everything right but when conditions change you see a 2021 season. I hope Baldelli can overcome this mind set, then we can have a better shot of not only making the post season but also advance and maybe do what ATL did last season. Because we have the core to do it.

 

[TruthInDuluth]

If the team advances, and it looks likely at this point, the starters will not be burned out.  They will do 7 innings in the playoffs. Great job by coach in this era of pitchers with no arms worth complete games.  Bullpen will hash its way out as to top to bottom by year end,placing staff in good position to win

[TheLeviathan]

  On 6/16/2022 at 3:29 PM, Jack Griffin said:

This is the main point that influenced my article.

Searching through discussions, 90 percent of the complaints on Baldelli are:

-He's a nerd, geek, etc...

-He's a "puppet" for the front office

-He doesn't watch the game, he just looks at spreadsheets (Analytics)

-He treats all the players like babies by giving them off-days

-He is incompetent with his in game decisions, with no argument provided

All things with extreme negativity and no actual legit criticism 

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100%.  We have at least two owners liking or posting the same perception yet two moderators  liking/posting that this is a "fabrication".

There is a serious disconnect and people are exasperated and pleading for what Squirrel posted above: a return to criticism and discussion over incessant whining.

[a-wan]

  On 6/16/2022 at 4:03 PM, Doctor Gast said:

Very intriquing article, I like Baldelli and some credit goes to him for winning but a lot of credit needs to go to Sheldon & the core of players & coaches together with the juiced ball in 2019 and the shortened season 2020. And some instances we won  not because of him but inspite of him. His mindsets (No need for depth at CF,where Cave is the sole CFer back up when he's not a CFer) ( Polanco was an All Star SS) etc. Finally he has overcome some of them.

Although I like a lot old school - bunting, hitting where they aren't, stealin bases, hit & run although I like having 5 work horses SPs but times have changed and pitchers have changed. LaRussa is very old school, IMO he let Rodon go because he couldn't go 7+ innings  throughout the season and I think that was a waste. IMO CWS fans are getting fed up with him.

There needs to be a balance you need common sense together with the analytics. I get it using 3-6 short RPs per game but it's difficult to have & keep that many short RPs and depend so much on them w/o burning them out. Long relief very rarely enters his mind (maybe only when FO brings it to his attention) So when he's wearing his short relief thin he over stretches his rotation and they get injured & burned out, The idea is having everyone healthy, strong & fresh for the post season. Ignoring long relief is a bad idea especially for a shrinking roster, 1 long RP can substitude about 3-4 short RPs so you don't need as many pitchers. Long relief is the solution to the short relief overload.

Winning can be deceiving because you think you are doing everything right but when conditions change you see a 2021 season. I hope Baldelli can overcome this mind set, then we can have a better shot of not only making the post season but also advance and maybe do what ATL did last season. Because we have the core to do it.

 

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Roster construction is not on the manager, that is the FO. While all managers have some input it stills falls on the FO. When Winder was not in the rotation and was available he was long relief, so when available Baldelli did use long relief. Same thing with CF backups. He was given Cave, Nelson Cruz in a mobility scooter and a prayer to play CF. 

[Otaknam]

Agree that “ despising and hating” Baldelli for managing in a way you disagree with is pretty harsh. I don’t like the now popular managing by computer method myself, where analytics seems to drive every decision. Once in awhile go with your instincts and how someone is playing. For example, a player like Buxton goes on a torrid hitting streak of 10 for 15 with 5 home runs. The next day he is sitting out because that was scheduled a week in advance. Or a starting pitcher is dominating through five innings but the analytics drive the decision to take him out when the lineup turns over for the third time. Wonder what Rocco will do if a SP has a no hitter through 8 innings and has thrown 110 pitches? Let’s hope we get to find out.

[Whitey333]

It's becoming increasingly difficult to reply to topics on TD because if people don't agree with a person's comments they get blasted and ridiculed.  Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and to voice it here.  But some people don't like it if the view doesn't agree with their own opinion.  I'm not a Rocco fan but I give him credit for the teams record.  I believe the team could have won and should have won a handful more of games.  Too many times Rocco's A plan is more important than winning a game.  That is my opinion.  Not saying anyone has to agree with it.  But that's the way I feel.  A person should feel comfortable airing their opinions on TD.  That's why I signed up for it.  I'm not sure TD or many of it's readers feel the same way.

 

 

 

[Riverbrian]

  On 6/15/2022 at 5:16 PM, Brock Beauchamp said:

What bothers me the most is the completely irrational take that if the team wins, it's despite Baldelli and if the team loses, it's because of Baldelli.

It's such an obviously disingenuous take and makes this forum a worse place to be.

I'm not even that big of a Baldelli fan but I find myself defending more than I normally would because so many people are irrational about him. I've become much more aware of this as we've launched Brewer Fanatic; Craig Counsell is pretty much the same as Baldelli but Brewers fans have a much more balanced take on him than Twins fans do Baldelli.

So, Minnesotans, you're actually lagging behind Sconnies in the rational department. Y'all should probably do something about that.

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Love this post and I agree with the sentiment of it. 

I have no idea what kind of numbers you are pulling with Brewer Fanatic but I assume lower numbers than TD since it's a new project. Without knowing the numbers... my guess is that as you grow... so will the unbalanced takes. 

It's a by-product of growth.

Here's to your continued growth.  

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

  On 6/16/2022 at 5:04 PM, Riverbrian said:

Love this post and I agree with the sentiment of it. 

I have no idea what kind of numbers you are pulling with Brewer Fanatic but I assume lower numbers than TD since it's a new project. Without knowing the numbers... my guess is that as you grow... so will the unbalanced takes. 

It's a by-product of growth.

Here's too your continued growth.  

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Sure, but I'm speaking of the Brewers community at large, including what I've seen on Twitter, Reddit, and other places.

They have a much more balanced take on Counsell than Twins fans do on Baldelli. And while the Brewers haven't had the colossal failures in the postseason, Brewers fans are still very frustrated that with their pitching corps, they haven't even made the World Series. But instead of micro-analyzing Counsell and laying an undue amount of fault at his feet, they tend to focus more on front office and ownership, which also is more balanced and fair. Counsell couldn't grab a bat and hit in last year's NLDS and Brewer fans acknowledge that. They still gripe at him for a myriad of things - his usage of Keston Hiura being an obvious point to bring up - but they don't go find things to blame on Craig Counsell.

Which is kinda what Twins fans do to Baldelli on a near-nightly basis.

[jmlease1]

  On 6/16/2022 at 4:55 PM, Otaknam said:

Agree that “ despising and hating” Baldelli for managing in a way you disagree with is pretty harsh. I don’t like the now popular managing by computer method myself, where analytics seems to drive every decision. Once in awhile go with your instincts and how someone is playing. For example, a player like Buxton goes on a torrid hitting streak of 10 for 15 with 5 home runs. The next day he is sitting out because that was scheduled a week in advance. Or a starting pitcher is dominating through five innings but the analytics drive the decision to take him out when the lineup turns over for the third time. Wonder what Rocco will do if a SP has a no hitter through 8 innings and has thrown 110 pitches? Let’s hope we get to find out.

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here's the thing though: managing in baseball isn't just about one game, it's also about the season as a whole. We know that rest can be important to maintaining player health, so with the Buxton example, knowing that's he's been injury prone and that part of the season goal is to try to get him to play 130+ games while making sure he's healthy at the end of the season when playoffs are starting, do you throw those out to try and ride a hot streak? Penny wise & pound foolish, maybe. but beyond that...those are decisions that aren't just being made by the manager: they're being made by the organization as a whole, including the player (who will never say publicly that they like being sat consistently: a) they're competitive and want to play, and b) they know they'll get crushed for it if they say that they prioritize their own health over an individual game).

And organizations making the decisions about how players are being used is hardly anything new, it's just less commonly understood and you have fewer managers who run around claiming credit for everything or trying to run the team like a dictatorship.

I understand the frustration that some people have over the trends in modern baseball where starters throw fewer innings, bunting is mostly gone from the game, etc. But strategic trends for the game are always generational and have changed many time in baseball...and certainly will change again. Duping on the manager because you don't like the way the game is trending isn't terribly productive, and wishing that the game would go back to the way it is in your head is never, ever going to happen.

[KirbyDome89]

  On 6/16/2022 at 3:11 PM, Major League Ready said:

You have chosen to steer this away from the point which was quite clearly about the opinion others held about management not whether you had a right to question management.  The point was also that you have chosen to ignore very good information because it does not support your position. 

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I believe a large part of this thread is about what does, and does not, further discussion correct? The point I made was that arguing from authority (the part I bolded so please go back and read it) dissuades conversation as much as the baseless bitching about Rocco. Whether or not you choose to address what I'm actually saying here is totally up to you.  

[Mike Sixel]

  On 6/16/2022 at 5:12 PM, KirbyDome89 said:

I believe a large part of this thread is about what does, and does not, further discussion correct? The point I made was that arguing from authority (the part I bolded so please go back and read it) dissuades conversation as much as the baseless bitching about Rocco. Whether or not you choose to address what I'm actually saying here is totally up to you.  

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He didn't argue from authority, he pointed out that much of the non twins world likes and respects the work Baldelli does.

[RpR]

Baldelli has been another manager in the Gardenhire style; he can do well in the regular season but is a dud against the Yankees and post season.

Can he become the next Tom Kelly?   Ticket sales will determine if he stays around long enough to show one way or another.

[wabene]

  On 6/16/2022 at 5:04 PM, Riverbrian said:

Love this post and I agree with the sentiment of it. 

I have no idea what kind of numbers you are pulling with Brewer Fanatic but I assume lower numbers than TD since it's a new project. Without knowing the numbers... my guess is that as you grow... so will the unbalanced takes. 

It's a by-product of growth.

Here's to your continued growth.  

 

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That is a really good point. The Bomba Squad era was a time of huge growth for TD. You're right Twins Daily is just not the cozy corner it has been for so long, a place to get away from the Strib comment section for a little interesting discourse, and for me, learning. 

[KirbyDome89]

  On 6/16/2022 at 5:16 PM, Mike Sixel said:

He didn't argue from authority, he pointed out that much of the non twins world likes and respects the work Baldelli does.

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Followed immediately by "Fans thinking they know how to manage or coach better than the managers and coaches is almost a tradition in professional sports," i.e. an appeal to authority. That's not an argument, yet it bleeds into these discussions more often than it should. 

Personally I couldn't care less about Baldelli, IMO his impact on the actual gameplay is incredibly limited. If want to point out his reputation around the league as a defense, that's valid. If you're going to play the "he knows more than you," card as a gotcha response on a fan forum; move along...

[a-wan]

  On 6/16/2022 at 5:19 PM, RpR said:

Baldelli has been another manager in the Gardenhire style; he can do well in the regular season but is a dud against the Yankees and post season.

Can he become the next Tom Kelly?   Ticket sales will determine if he stays around long enough to show one way or another.

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That's not fair. First season he managed a team that started Dobnak game 2 of the playoffs and lost to a 103 win team 

And the other year was a 2 game series against an Astros that made it to the ALCS. That is the definition of small sample size.

[Riverbrian]

  On 6/16/2022 at 5:44 PM, wabene said:

That is a really good point. The Bomba Squad era was a time of huge growth for TD. You're right Twins Daily is just not the cozy corner it has been for so long, a place to get away from the Strib comment section for a little interesting discourse, and for me, learning. 

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When Mayberry grows.

With all those folks moving in... Not everybody is going to be Andy, Opie and Aunt Bea. 

Otis is going to have some new friends to party with. 

 

[RpR]

  On 6/16/2022 at 5:58 PM, a-wan said:

That's not fair. First season he managed a team that started Dobnak game 2 of the playoffs and lost to a 103 win team 

And the other year was a 2 game series against an Astros that made it to the ALCS. That is the definition of small sample size.

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Rationalizing does not change the facts as they stand at this point, he cannot make the Yankees just another team and his Post Season is a Cluster- #.

[a-wan]

  On 6/16/2022 at 6:01 PM, RpR said:

Rationalizing does not change the facts as they stand at this point, he cannot beat the Yankees and his Post Season is a Cluster- #.

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That is 5 games.