Rocco Baldelli: suffering from success

[cHawk]

31 minutes ago, Number3 said:

2019 doesn't count because Rocco did not "manage" the all time MLB home run record. 2020 doesn't count for obvious reasons. No question that Baldelli manages by the numbers and almost seems to detest starting pitchers in that he seems to relish yanking them before they can qualify for a win. I will say that the way the game is played today the list of pitchers in most box scores is almost as long as the "non pitchers" and more and more the non pitchers are asked to pitch. The classic example of analytics gone wild was a few days ago when Girardi intentionally walked a batter with a 1-2 count (playing the percentages as he said) to get a lefty on lefty matchup and the ensuing batter hit a game winning home run. Managers today don't seem to even watch the game, they just run the numbers sent down by the geeks behind computers many of whom have never played the game.

Okay but how do you know that he had nothing to do with it? And if having the all time MLB HR record causes the 2019 season to not count, shouldn’t literally constant injuries and a hodgepodge pitching staff cause the 2021 season to not count?

[Jack Griffin]

1 hour ago, Number3 said:

The classic example of analytics gone wild was a few days ago when Girardi intentionally walked a batter with a 1-2 count (playing the percentages as he said) to get a lefty on lefty matchup and the ensuing batter hit a game winning home run. Managers today don't seem to even watch the game, they just run the numbers sent down by the geeks behind computers many of whom have never played the game.

 

46 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

It was.

And intentional walks in general, and that one in particular, are decidedly un-analytic. 

Intentionally walking a batter with 2 strikes to face a batter that has hit lefties better than righties in his career is about as un-analytic as you can get. He was making a very old school decision, to get a lefty vs lefty matchup, so exactly the opposite of what the original reply states.

[USAFChief]

15 minutes ago, Jack Griffin said:

 

Intentionally walking a batter with 2 strikes to face a batter that has hit lefties better than righties in his career is about as un-analytic as you can get. He was making a very old school decision, to get a lefty vs lefty matchup, so exactly the opposite of what the original reply states.

Yeah. That's what I said.

[Jack Griffin]

2 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Yeah. That's what I said.

I was basically just emphasizing what you said with a little more context if anyone was curious

[MGM4706]

I think the REAL Truth is that the Twins have won DESPITE Baldelli!

Frustrating is his handling of pitchers. Other day  a reliever was pitching and couldn't throw a strike. Not even close. Guys in the booth commented that the guy was way out of rythum. Camera went to Baldelli. His face was buried in his darn notebook!! He left pitcher in for 5-6 batters and lost the game. If he had taken him out after 3 batters with 3 walks they may have won. Watch the GAME! Not the notebook. Fans saw it on TV. Booth guys saw it. But Rocco did not.

[dex8425]

Guys. Tony La Russa could be the manager. Relax. Rocco is probably in the top third of MLB managers as far as keeping a good clubhouse, getting the most out of players, and managing a pitching staff. Is he perfect? No, but remember he's still REALLY young and learning on the fly having never even been a bench coach or manager at any level before he took the Twins managerial job. 

All Twins current and former players gush about the front office and coaching staff. (well except for Matt Shoemaker) Correa said it factored heavily into his decision to come here. 

[USAFChief]

4 minutes ago, Jack Griffin said:

I was basically just emphasizing what you said with a little more context if anyone was curious

For further context, there was some semi-serious speculation among some Sox fans that LaRussa fell asleep and/or lost track of the count.

 

Heh

 

 

[dex8425]

1 hour ago, wabene said:

Wasn't that Tony Old School LaRussa? 

Yes. TLR is probably the biggest reason the Twins are in first place:) He's completely lost that clubhouse. 

[Jack Griffin]

1 minute ago, USAFChief said:

For further context, there was some semi-serious speculation among Sox fans that LaRussa fell asleep and/or lost track of the count.

 

Heh

 

 

Every day I get more and more confused how the White Sox front office thought hiring a 77 year-old manager that hadn't been a manger since 2011 was the best option for the very young team

[USAFChief]

1 minute ago, Jack Griffin said:

Every day I get more and more confused how the White Sox front office thought hiring a 77 year-old manager that hadn't been a manger since 2011 was the best option for the very young team

I think might have been an ownership decision.

In the interests of fairness to old guys (ahem...) I'd take Dusty Baker any day and twice on Sundays.

[rv78]

FWIW comparing Managers isn't going to prove anything. They all managed in different eras with different teams against different opponents. We can argue all day that Tom Kelly, Billy Martin or Gene Mauch could have this current team on a pace to win 20 more games than Rocco or vice versa. Can anyone explain his decision when he can't figure out how to keep two of his star players from resting on the same day? His explanation and reason was completely moronic. A six year old is smart enough to say, well I'll play one today and give him tomorrow off instead. Why are rest schedules more important than playing schedules? Using his plan and yes he has a plan as we all know, there should be no excuse for having tired players come playoff time since he values rest schedules more than playing time. So, if they continue to play well against the best teams in the AL throughout the season and make the playoffs and lose again it won't be because the players are tired or because the good teams are just better, it will be because of the only other possible reason.... they weren't managed correctly. Remember that.

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, Number3 said:

2019 doesn't count because Rocco did not "manage" the all time MLB home run record. 

In 2019 the Twins had the 9th best ERA in baseball. Does that help, or is just that he doesn't get credit for anything on the field and managers are a complete non-factor?

[Trov]

First, I am not big on Rocco, but I am not down on him either.  I like that he is willing to embrace a different way to manage and win games, in particular in the regular season.  I may not agree with his moves, but I get why he does them, and he very much follows analytics.  For most fans they either love or hate analytics.  If you hate it, you will hate Rocco.  

I personally like analytics, but feel some go wayyyyy to overboard with them.  I feel some managers that follow them so much do not look at the game situation in front of them and just play the numbers.  Something I had issue with when Gardy was here, as he was the complete opposite and did not look at the numbers at all, but always went with the old way of managing.  He would pay no attention to match ups or how guys did in past. 

Personally, I wish Rocco would come off the antilytic approach a little and do more moves based on game situations.  However, I get he has a plan and will follow it and work it best he can.  I do feel it is not bad in a 162 game season, but in a best of 3, 5 or 7 series, I feel each game needs to be managed differently.  Of course we will never know the results of different decisions, and we only attack decisions made that did not work out.

I do feel too many fans look at single games in a 162 season and knit pick too many moves in single games without looking at big picture.  Sometimes it is worth waiving white flag on 1 game to not put you behind 8 ball in next few games. 

I will like to see how he manages in next playoff appearance, hopefully this year, then I will form more of an opinion on him and how I feel.  I can live with his regular season managing if he does well in the playoffs.  His first 5 games have not work out, but part of that is not having Buck at all, and scoring basically no runs and having very little pitching success.  It is hard to see if he made good moves when just about everyone played poorly. 

Hopefully this year we are healthy heading into playoffs, mainly Buck, Correa, and our best pitchers.  Will it make the difference, who knows, but if you look at the 2019 series against the Yankees, many of the same moves people attack Rocco for, Yankees did and it work out well for them.  Mainly going through several pitchers after having short starts, despite not giving up many runs. None of their starters went more than 5 innings and none gave up more than 3 runs either, using 4 or 5 pitchers each game.  

[Dman]

The main thing I appreciate about Rocco is that he is so good communicating with players and creating good team chemistry. When players come in and love the clubhouse and team atmosphere that says a lot IMO. When the team\manager really, truly cares about the players health and wants them to be successful the players feel that and appreciate that. Both Correa and Cruz have given the team high marks in that regard.

Rocco trusts his players to do their jobs and tries to play to their strengths when he can. It doesn't always work out, but trust is the only way to build a strong bond and confidence both ways.

I also appreciate Rocco's honesty.  In interviews he usually gives an idea of what he was thinking or how he see's things.

To other poster's points I don't have any issue with people questioning Rocco's decisions as I certainly don't agree with all of them but the he's an idiot and horrible manager schtick is getting a bit old and it doesn't really provide any baseball insight.  I get where it comes from we all feel things during the game (in my case generally that something bad is about to happen) and wish the manager would have felt the same thing (i.e. keeping a pitcher in longer, taking a pitcher out sooner, pinch hit or bunt in this spot, don't use this pitcher etc.)  I feel the frustration when what you thought might happen does happen.  The thing is I\we forget about the times we thought something bad might happen and something good happened instead.  We forget that we get hindsight to view the game through and can ignore the game within the game.  I\we get emotional about losing and feel the one man in control, the manager, could have and should have done a better job.

In the end though the manager has to trust his players to get the job done.  When they fail he has to keep their confidence as high as he can. When they fail repeatedly he needs to find ways to help them out of their slump.  To have the players trust he has to put them back out there and expect them to succeed\do their job well. That is all he can do.  Sometimes that works out for a win sometimes it works out to a loss.  I don't mind questioning a managers decisions but personal attacks seem over the top to me.

[Blyleven2011]

14 hours ago, USAFChief said:

 

I think it'd be a lot better if the fans who don't like other fans' questions would offer reasons they agree with the manager, instead of attacking other fans.

 

 

I think it would be great if the FO and Rocco  would read twins daily 

[TheLeviathan]

11 minutes ago, Trov said:

First, I am not big on Rocco, but I am not down on him either.  I like that he is willing to embrace a different way to manage and win games, in particular in the regular season.  I may not agree with his moves, but I get why he does them, and he very much follows analytics.  For most fans they either love or hate analytics.  If you hate it, you will hate Rocco.  

I personally like analytics, but feel some go wayyyyy to overboard with them.  I feel some managers that follow them so much do not look at the game situation in front of them and just play the numbers.  Something I had issue with when Gardy was here, as he was the complete opposite and did not look at the numbers at all, but always went with the old way of managing.  He would pay no attention to match ups or how guys did in past. 

Personally, I wish Rocco would come off the antilytic approach a little and do more moves based on game situations.  However, I get he has a plan and will follow it and work it best he can.  I do feel it is not bad in a 162 game season, but in a best of 3, 5 or 7 series, I feel each game needs to be managed differently.  Of course we will never know the results of different decisions, and we only attack decisions made that did not work out.

I do feel too many fans look at single games in a 162 season and knit pick too many moves in single games without looking at big picture.  Sometimes it is worth waiving white flag on 1 game to not put you behind 8 ball in next few games. 

I will like to see how he manages in next playoff appearance, hopefully this year, then I will form more of an opinion on him and how I feel.  I can live with his regular season managing if he does well in the playoffs.  His first 5 games have not work out, but part of that is not having Buck at all, and scoring basically no runs and having very little pitching success.  It is hard to see if he made good moves when just about everyone played poorly. 

Hopefully this year we are healthy heading into playoffs, mainly Buck, Correa, and our best pitchers.  Will it make the difference, who knows, but if you look at the 2019 series against the Yankees, many of the same moves people attack Rocco for, Yankees did and it work out well for them.  Mainly going through several pitchers after having short starts, despite not giving up many runs. None of their starters went more than 5 innings and none gave up more than 3 runs either, using 4 or 5 pitchers each game.  

I appreciate your effort to be fair and reasonable in the criticisms you list here.  That's the foundation of an invigorating discussion.  Kudos.

[a-wan]

The last 3 seasons dealing with COVID has made me much more appreciative of Baldelli. As mentioned the players seem to enjoy playing for him due to his communication style. 

As a fan I appreciate the notion he has kept the fact that a lot of the pitchers he has available have not had normal pitching schedules the last few seasons. Archer has been hurt, Winder and the prospects missed a whole year due to COVID, and he's worked with the FO to make plans for each pitcher. Instead of everyone goes 6 innings no matter what.

The constant whining about he pulls his starters too quick usually is a hot take, knee jerk reaction on this board. Instead, like many teams Baldelli and the Twins have found out how most starters kind of suck the 3rd time through a lineup.

[Brock Beauchamp]

What bothers me the most is the completely irrational take that if the team wins, it's despite Baldelli and if the team loses, it's because of Baldelli.

It's such an obviously disingenuous take and makes this forum a worse place to be.

I'm not even that big of a Baldelli fan but I find myself defending more than I normally would because so many people are irrational about him. I've become much more aware of this as we've launched Brewer Fanatic; Craig Counsell is pretty much the same as Baldelli but Brewers fans have a much more balanced take on him than Twins fans do Baldelli.

So, Minnesotans, you're actually lagging behind Sconnies in the rational department. Y'all should probably do something about that.

[TheLeviathan]

16 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

What bothers me the most is the completely irrational take that if the team wins, it's despite Baldelli and if the team loses, it's because of Baldelli.

It's such an obviously disingenuous take and makes this forum a worse place to be.

I'm not even that big of a Baldelli fan but I find myself defending more than I normally would because so many people are irrational about him. I've become much more aware of this as we've launched Brewer Fanatic; Craig Counsell is pretty much the same as Baldelli but Brewers fans have a much more balanced take on him than Twins fans do Baldelli.

So, Minnesotans, you're actually lagging behind Sconnies in the rational department. Y'all should probably do something about that.

So many of the takes, including some here in this thread, can only be described as stupid.  They are irrational, hypocritical, and wildly inconsistent.  They offer no value at all to the community.  None.

I too have a bone to pick from time to time with Rocco but reflexively defend him because the proliferation of such utterly stupid takes is unavoidable right now.

The community has been, and should strive to be, better than that.

[KirbyDome89]

22 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

I heard an interview on satellite radio with a guy from Fangraphs I believe.  He specifically singled out  Baldelli's handling of the pitching staff and gave him high praise.  The fact that you would do it differently is far from proof he is doing it wrong.

BTW ... Pay attention to what the people around him including the players say about him.  Every person he has worked with sings his praises.  His players, coaches, and people outside the organization respect him and speak very highly of his baseball IQ and how he handles players in general.  

Fans thinking they know how to manage or coach better than the managers and coaches is almost a tradition in professional sports.

Arguing from authority, i.e. "they know more than you," is just as detrimental as the low brow Baldelli takes being roasted here. It offers no value as far as genuine debate is concerned. TD is a fan forum; it quite literally exists for those outside the inner circle to offer up their thoughts. 

[IndianaTwin]

2 hours ago, Jack Griffin said:

Every day I get more and more confused how the White Sox front office thought hiring a 77 year-old manager that hadn't been a manger since 2011 was the best option for the very young team

FTFY: Every day I get more and more appreciative of the White Sox front office for hiring this 77-year-old manager...?

[Squirrel]

I'm just going to interject here ... PLEASE ... do not make your posts personal toward other posters ... rebut the posts, not the poster. Please refrain from generalizations of 'everyone is saying ...', name calling, etc. It's okay to not like the manager, but there is a difference between general negativity and supplying critical commentary.

[Major League Ready]

33 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Arguing from authority, i.e. "they know more than you," is just as detrimental as the low brow Baldelli takes being roasted here. It offers no value as far as genuine debate is concerned. TD is a fan forum; it quite literally exists for those outside the inner circle to offer up their thoughts. 

Fangraphs has absolutely no authority whatsoever.  They are not management or a governing body.  They are subject matter experts.  In the real world, rational people welcome the input / opinions of subject matter experts.  The SME I referenced supported his opinion with hard data collected by his organization.  I also included players and baseball people in general in my comments because the point was the outside opinions of Rocco are quite different than many of those expressed here.  The fact that subject matter experts and players feel differently offers very real value to genuine debate.  If we were arguing the legality of something, input from a Harvard Law professor would add genuine value.

[Mike Sixel]

16 hours ago, USAFChief said:

This is a complete fabrication.

People have every right to have different opinions on the manager than the OP, and than you.

Few posters "**** all over him." 

They question moves, offer different opinions, and disagree with strategies.

As fans have been doing for about 150 years. Just like some fans wouldn't question the manager if he stole their wallet.

I think it'd be a lot better if the fans who don't like other fans' questions would offer reasons they agree with the manager, instead of attacking other fans.

 

 

You must be looking at an alternate TD. Because I see him called names constantly. Even after wins. 

[Mike Sixel]

3 hours ago, MGM4706 said:

I think the REAL Truth is that the Twins have won DESPITE Baldelli!

Frustrating is his handling of pitchers. Other day  a reliever was pitching and couldn't throw a strike. Not even close. Guys in the booth commented that the guy was way out of rythum. Camera went to Baldelli. His face was buried in his darn notebook!! He left pitcher in for 5-6 batters and lost the game. If he had taken him out after 3 batters with 3 walks they may have won. Watch the GAME! Not the notebook. Fans saw it on TV. Booth guys saw it. But Rocco did not.

For three of four years they've won despite him? You have any evidence of that at all?

[USAFChief]

3 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

You must be looking at an alternate TD. Because I see him called names constantly. Even after wins. 

 We don't permit name calling. There's very little of it, and what there is eventually gets moderator attention. 

[KirbyDome89]

18 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

Fangraphs has absolutely no authority whatsoever.  They are not management or a governing body.  They are subject matter experts.  In the real world, rational people welcome the input / opinions of subject matter experts.  The SME I referenced supported his opinion with hard data collected by his organization.  I also included players and baseball people in general in my comments because the point was the outside opinions of Rocco are quite different than many of those expressed here.  The fact that subject matter experts and players feel differently offers very real value to genuine debate.  If we were arguing the legality of something, input from a Harvard Law professor would add genuine value.

I guess you missed the bolded? I highlighted it because it's what I referred to. 

Your first two paragraphs aren't in question. At all. 

[Our Thoughts on Rocco]

People are complaining because he does:  
 

*make so many bad moves

*show zero fire or have the backs of his teammates

*NEVER ARGUE!!

*No experience 

*Individually cost the team runs

* …..and hear it comes…wait for it..

Hes the puppet getting his strings pulled by Derek and Thad, and everyone knows it!!

add to that, the use of Byron Buxton is a disaster; everyone and I mean everyone is thinking the same thing; roll the dice for 7 years and only $100 million(which is a steal)

Play Buxton until he needs a wheelchair; he’s not an argumentative guy and he will do what’s ever asked of him.  SERIOUSLY A 100 game plan is the answer for a 27 year older??  Ask Mike Trout how that’s going.

*OH AND GET KICKED OUT OF GAME AND JUST SHOW YOU HAVE A PULSE BRO!! (9th and 10th innings do not count you big risk taker.

Bottom line is all of our previous coaches good or bad (TK the Best) would have no problem clashing with the front office, because at the end of the day you are the head coach and at some point you have to make a decision on your own, whether it be a good or bad decision at least it was your own.

   THATS WHAT PEOPLE ARE THINKING 

      

[Riverbrian]

19 hours ago, Blyleven2011 said:

I think it would be great if the FO and Rocco  would read twins daily 

I would bet a large sum of money that they do.

Not many humans have the ability to stay away from a place where others are talking about you. 

Like putting your tongue on a canker sore. You can be reasonably certain that they frequent Twinsdaily. 

[wabene]

21 hours ago, USAFChief said:

Yeah. That's what I said.

Uh, that's what I said.