Twins 8, Blue Jays 6: Twins Win A Rubber Match Nail-Biter in Toronto

[2wins87]

25 minutes ago, rwilfong86 said:

With Megill, Pagan, and Thielbar coming back i think they could have stretched him a little more. But we got the W and thats the most important thing.

I'm not sure Megill will be coming back given what we saw from Cotton and I don't want to see him or Pagan in a high leverage situation anyway.

Agreed on the W though.

[Aggies7]

2 minutes ago, 2wins87 said:

The lead was 3 runs when he started getting loose and against one of the best lineups in the league, idk, it seems fine to me.  

The way they have used Duran this year is different from other high leverage guys. He never goes back to back days and usually they try to give him at least 3 days off, but he does frequently go 2 innings.  I'm pretty sure that's not a Baldelli invention, rather the front office/training staff have decided it's the best way to transition him to the bullpen. Given those parameters, since he had already started warming up it seemed like a fine plan to me.

It is true that he was already warming so it may have been too late to change course. But again, the fewer innings you have to get out of a weak bullpen the better. I’ll take a smeltzer for the third time through the order over MOST of our bullpen guys. The trick should be trying to get to the 9th without using duran, especially if we’re concerned about innings 

[Rosterman]

Be interesting to see what happens to Cotton. Officially, he's not on the 40-man and can just be sent easily back to St. Paul. No team is claiming him, because they have to pay his salary.

At some point Smeltzer does have to face batters three times, as well as also face tough batters. I'm not sure what the issue was as the Twins did have a three run lead.

Palacios is at least giving the Twins considering of giving him a future backup role. Maybe they need to try him at playing the outfield and first and catcher to make him even more well-rounded.

Ryan Jeffers needs to go and play everyday in St. Paul. I'm not sure Godoy is even the temporary answer. I would almost rather see Hamilton or Banuelos get the shot. Let it be a temporary rotation spot for backup catcher. I mean, Wichita has five guys, and Sisco has to come off the IL-list...someday.  would love to see Morales be the odd man on the roster, but don't see him s a primary backup catcher but an Astudillo-type guy who could also play 1B and DH rather than catch.

[jorgenswest]

Given that Cotton came in a clean 5th inning it is really hard to argue Smeltzer should have been left in. Did you really want him to face Springer again. His command was shaky. Do we want to hand the ball to Cotton with a runner on and Springer up? We can’t just push everyone back and imagine that Cotton would have had a clean 6th facing the middle of their line up. It still would have been Jax and Smith until their line up turned over and they gave it to Duran. I absolutely want my best pitcher pitching the last two innings against this team.

Somehow this team won two games against a very good offense with many pitchers unavailable. There must be some credit we can give to the coaching staff.

[Aggies7]

Hey these dudes are in the major leagues for a reason. Yeah the guys with the best stuff should get the highest leverage situations but if you’re not going to ask even 5 innings from the starter, then some of these less proven guys are going to need to see action, sometimes against the better hitters. Otherwise you’re just leaning on a guy or two to do ALL the heavy lifting and you run the risk of burning them out. 

[2wins87]

7 minutes ago, Rosterman said:

Palacios is at least giving the Twins considering of giving him a future backup role. Maybe they need to try him at playing the outfield and first and catcher to make him even more well-rounded.

I don't know about catcher but he was playing all over in AAA since Lewis was the regular SS most of the time, so he already is sort of getting ready for that role. He has taken pretty good at bats too but so far his batting line says "defensive specialist".

[stringer bell]

I thought it was the right call to take Smeltzer out especially after the fourth inning where he allowed only one run thanks to a nice defensive play by Larnach to hold Springer to a single, a nice GDP, then a homer and another hit. 
 

My only gripe was that I thought that either Cotton or Jax might have gone two innings. I agree with 2Twins87 about Duran’s usage. He has done two innings frequently and having someone capable of dominating two of the late innings is huge. 
 

The looming off day and return of a couple or three bullpen arms also figured into the pitching decisions. 
 

There are a number of players making statements about being big leaguers—-Cotton, Moran, Jax, Miranda, Celestino, Larnach, Palacios and Gordon. 

[bighat]

Arraez now leading the league in hitting at .358.

The gap between Sanchez and Jeffers has become more and more evident after every series. With an off day tomorrow, I'd hope that Gary's back behind the plate Tuesday against his old team.

Really like what Smeltzer and Cotton have done for this team filling in emergency roles. Where would this team be without these guys?

Nice to see Larnach run into one. That was a BOMB.

Duffey, good grief. Remember his big league debut in Toronto all those years ago? This wasn't much different. Yikes.

[AceWrigley]

2 hours ago, USAFChief said:

A plan that features 2 innings from your best reliever with a big lead is not "great."

It is a day off tomorrow, so 2 innings wouldn't have been a bad plan in my thinking.

[miller761]

Please explain to me why Smeltzer gets a quick hook and Duffy stays in too long.

[darwin22]

1 hour ago, 2wins87 said:

The lead was 3 runs when he started getting loose and against one of the best lineups in the league, idk, it seems fine to me.  

The way they have used Duran this year is different from other high leverage guys. He never goes back to back days and usually they try to give him at least 2 days off, but he does frequently go 2 innings.  I'm pretty sure that's not a Baldelli invention, rather the front office/training staff have decided it's the best way to transition him to the bullpen. Given those parameters, since he had already started warming up it seemed like a fine plan to me.

Not arguing your point, but a review of Duran's game logs this season shows that prior to today:

18 appearances

Only 7 games (less than 40% of games pitched) has Duran pitched more than 1 inning.  4 of those came in April.

With his outstanding ERA (2.13), WHIP (0.71) and impressive K to BB rate (36-4), I'm hoping its only a matter of time until we see Duran as our 9th inning closer.  Saying that---pending today's removal doesn't require an IL stint------I seriously doubt that Baldelli/ Johnson/ Falvey & Levine will make that move this season.  

[Aggies7]

8 minutes ago, darwin22 said:

Not arguing your point, but a review of Duran's game logs this season shows that prior to today:

18 appearances

Only 7 games (less than 40% of games pitched) has Duran pitched more than 1 inning.  4 of those came in April.

With his outstanding ERA (2.13), WHIP (0.71) and impressive K to BB rate (36-4), I'm hoping its only a matter of time until we see Duran as our 9th inning closer.  Saying that---pending today's removal doesn't require an IL stint------I seriously doubt that Baldelli/ Johnson/ Falvey & Levine will make that move this season.  

Two inning outings is a weird way to use your best reliever IMO. If he needs two days off after that, you kinda set yourself up for failure when your bullpen is so lean. Like, who’s another good 8/9 inning option right now? I’d like to have him available for 9th inning save situations only. But that requires 1) starters going longer 2) other relievers stepping up

[Game7-91]

1 hour ago, bighat said:

With an off day tomorrow, I'd hope that Gary's back behind the plate Tuesday against his old team.

Amen to that.

How about this for a rare burst of (fantastical)optimism from yours truly- Sanchez's predicted batting line vs Evil Empire this week:

12AB, 9 hits, 3HR, 3-2b's, 10 RBI's, including walk-off 3 run bomb against Chapman, and to add some D to the equation, a game saving spectacular backup 1b play on a errant throw, triggering a wild game-ending triple-play in top of the 9th. 

Go get em Mr Sanchez??

 

[IndianaTwin]

I wasn’t watching, but on the question of Smeltzer pitching the fifth, I would guess it was affected pretty dramatically by him having thrown 101 pitches the last time out. 

[Aerodeliria]

Over the years, we've been very competitive versus the Jays. I like how we kept on adding to the lead, which proved to be more than necessary as it turns out. I'm not sure why Duffey always gets a long leash and some of the starters are pulled throwing fewer than 70 pitches. It seems like the number of pitches or the number of times through the order is the only determining factor rather than how well the pitcher is throwing...

In any case, better get the bullpen figured out by the next series or else buy yourself an extra anti-nausea bracelet. 

[cheeseheadgophfan]

3 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

Given that Cotton came in a clean 5th inning it is really hard to argue Smeltzer should have been left in. Did you really want him to face Springer again. His command was shaky. Do we want to hand the ball to Cotton with a runner on and Springer up? We can’t just push everyone back and imagine that Cotton would have had a clean 6th facing the middle of their line up. It still would have been Jax and Smith until their line up turned over and they gave it to Duran. I absolutely want my best pitcher pitching the last two innings against this team.

Somehow this team won two games against a very good offense with many pitchers unavailable. There must be some credit we can give to the coaching staff.

Hard to argue that Smeltzer should've been left in????  WTH?  Not hard for me.  62 pitches and he's been your best starter the last month.  You don't even give him a chance to get the win?  You're assuming Springer comes up with a runner on?  I'm assuming he pitches a clean 5th and 6th.......both are purely assumptions.  Let him go and see if he gets through the inning.  If you run into trouble, you can't be concerned about bringing in a reliever with runners on......that's their job at this level.  This crap about facing the lineup a third time is little league.  It's just Rocco having no feel for the game.

As for folks putting Duffey and Pagan in the same category?  C'mon.  Pagan has given up some solo shots and early in the season his control was erratic, but his stuff is 100000 x's better than Duffey's.   I would've felt totally comfortable  with Pagan and a 5 run lead.  Duffey?  I felt sick to my stomach watching him run in from the bullpen  (check the game log....I predicted Springer was going to tie the game after Duffey faced 3 batters).  He's TERRIBLE and if they send Cotton out and keep Duffey.?????   Well it's clear that Duffey must have some incriminating pictures of Rocco on his phone.  

Finally........Arraez.  When does the national media start paying attention?  He is simply amazing.  

[Markdumont25]

I hope Arraez is a lifelong Twin. Obviously a very talented player but, more importantly, he's so easy to root for and I feel like he brings eyeballs to the TV and the stadium. He's occasionally suggested is trade bait but he's my favorite player and I can't be the only one... I hope he's around for a while.

[rwilfong86]

4 hours ago, Markdumont25 said:

I hope Arraez is a lifelong Twin. Obviously a very talented player but, more importantly, he's so easy to root for and I feel like he brings eyeballs to the TV and the stadium. He's occasionally suggested is trade bait but he's my favorite player and I can't be the only one... I hope he's around for a while.

I wouldn't be surprised if he makes a run at .400 this summer. 

[big dog]

10 hours ago, jimbo92107 said:

I gotta bone to pick with the Twins organization about Jermaine Palacios. Here is a young man with the size and shape of a young Alex Rodriguez. He's a big, athletic guy, yet they have him hitting in a stance and style hat guarantees he will never hit for power. 

Jermaine Palacios should have a stance like Chili Davis: Front shoulder closed, front hip pointing at the pitcher, front heel lined up with rear toe, weight back on inside of rear foot. It's a simple power stance I once taught to a complete novice in 30 seconds. Then you meet the ball no later than a line you draw from the front toe. 

This guy should be terrifying opposing teams with exit velocities rivaling anybody in the league. Why the Twins taught him to tippy toe through an at-bat, that's just coaching malfeasance. Let this man swing a bat for real!

He hit somewhat better before he was traded to the Rays, where he hit worse when continued at High-A and did nothing when promoted to AA. He was better last year with the Twins, too. If he has a ton of power potential, two organizations have failed to unlock it.

[jmlease1]

I'm baffled by all of the angst directed towards our manager after a win. A win! It sure feels like a subset of Twins fans has decided that Rocco = Bad, period, and comes here looking for something to be mad about. Pulling Smeltzer an inning "early"? seemed reasonable considering he didn't have great command, with Springer coming up (who had been killing him). I might have gone with Jax a 2nd inning myself, but with the day off pending, I get the mindset. It was disappointing to see Duffey implode with the big lead, but rolling him out there to mop up the game in the 9th made perfect sense.

The strategies for the bullpen were fine. Some of the moves worked great. Some of them didn't go as well. But nitpicking every. single. move! the manager/pitching coach makes in every game all season is exhausting. Rocco's fine. He does a good job in managing his clubhouse and roster (his primary strength) and is decent enough strategically. Managerial performance is overrated, usually by people needing someone to blame for stuff. Every season you have 5-7 managers who are obviously superior and really impact their team's season, 5-7 who stink and hurt their team's chances, and 15-20 who fall in the middle who either seem interchangeable or whose true value is unquantifiable. Put Rocco in the middle group. It's fine. He's not in the basement crew, and the people who think he is are not going to be satisfied with the next guy either.

A fine win against a really good club. Toronto has some terrific players. Nice to see a few guys for us step up with big bombs; Sanchez just missed one and then got it back in the next AB by hitting it to a slightly smaller part of the park. Larnach hit a missile. Arraez is so hard to keep off base, I love it. He's a nightmare for RHPs.

[Swing Batter-Batter]

14 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

Rocco tried his darndest to manage us into a loss. Thankfully the offense covered for him 

He sure did. His handling of the pitchers is terrible. By my count, it has cost us 5 games this season.

[Swing Batter-Batter]

8 hours ago, cheeseheadgophfan said:

Hard to argue that Smeltzer should've been left in????  WTH?  Not hard for me.  62 pitches and he's been your best starter the last month.  You don't even give him a chance to get the win?  You're assuming Springer comes up with a runner on?  I'm assuming he pitches a clean 5th and 6th.......both are purely assumptions.  Let him go and see if he gets through the inning.  If you run into trouble, you can't be concerned about bringing in a reliever with runners on......that's their job at this level.  This crap about facing the lineup a third time is little league.  It's just Rocco having no feel for the game.

As for folks putting Duffey and Pagan in the same category?  C'mon.  Pagan has given up some solo shots and early in the season his control was erratic, but his stuff is 100000 x's better than Duffey's.   I would've felt totally comfortable  with Pagan and a 5 run lead.  Duffey?  I felt sick to my stomach watching him run in from the bullpen  (check the game log....I predicted Springer was going to tie the game after Duffey faced 3 batters).  He's TERRIBLE and if they send Cotton out and keep Duffey.?????   Well it's clear that Duffey must have some incriminating pictures of Rocco on his phone.  

Finally........Arraez.  When does the national media start paying attention?  He is simply amazing.  

I agree. If you leave Smeltzer in for one more inning, Duffey never gets in the game.

[wabene]

14 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

Rocco tried his darndest to manage us into a loss. Thankfully the offense covered for him 

This is a load of crap. 

[mikelink45]

12 hours ago, darwin22 said:

A few observations after a BIG "W" today:

1.  Considering the Twins have consistently failed to add on runs after scoring early---------the 2-out HRs by Larnach (solo) and Sanchez (2 run bomb) proved to be the cushion needed after the implosion of Duffey.

2.  A question:   Which hitter--------Arraez or Sanchez---------would get your vote for "most valuable" over the last several weeks with Correa's absence and Buxton's prolonged slump?  Hard for me to choose.

3.  Related to above-------Has Rocco FINALLY figured out that Sanchez needs to be our regular (5-6 games per week) catcher?  It might appear so.  Saying that, Jeffers, imo, needs to be relegated to the bench with possibly 1-2 starts per week if Twins have zero "off days".    For those keeping track---------Jeffers, who I'm sure is nice to dogs and old ladies---is stuck in a 3-35 (.086 avg) slump since May 21st.  Sanchez--now with 6 jacks and 27 RBI-----has earned full time status behind the plate.  

With upcoming roster moves before Tuesday, there is ZERO reason this team should EVER have Jeffers in the lineup as DH.

4.  Yes, I know Twins won the game, but a few questions for Rocco.  Sorry, I can't help myself:

A.  Why was Smeltzer pulled after 4 IP when he'd only thrown 62 pitches?

Yes, I know he labored somewhat in that inning, but the FACT is he did have the 8-9 hitters coming up in the 5th that he had retired on ground balls in their only other AB?

B.   Why was Jax pulled after his dominant--only 9 pitches---6th inning with an "off day" tomorrow?  Jax buzzed through the heart of the Jays order (2-3-4) with ZERO issues.  

C.   Related to above:  What does Jax have to do to earn more late inning/high pressure innings (7th or 8th) with the recent struggles of Joe Smith?

D.  Rocco---------Why do you refuse to get pitchers warmed up when the current RP is imploding?  This is a troublesome and re-occurring theme.  Rocco:  Have you forgotten that you can REMOVE a pitcher after facing 3 batters?  I'm serious in asking that question!  I believe I'm correct on this having watched the game, but Baldelli didn't even get a pitcher warming up until AFTER Duffey served up his 3-run gopher ball.  Why?  This makes zero sense.

E.  Does anyone know if Duffey has a minor league option remaining?  I doubt it, but have to ask as he continues to fail in situations that demand he just pitch average.  He looks totally lost with ZERO confidence.  He rates a whisker behind Pagan in my level of confidence to protect a lead.

You nailed it!  All good questions and they cover all but one of my questions - with a five run lead and another big series coming up I did not see the wisdom, at the time, for putting Duran in.  I would have saved him for the Yankees.

[Whitey333]

Yes.  A very nice and unexpected series win in Toronto.  Jays were on an 8 game win streak averaging 7 runs per game.  Twins were banged up and had covid issues.  Well done twins!!  Baldelli continues to show that he will be the main reason the twins may not make the playoffs.

[wabene]

10 hours ago, Aggies7 said:

Two inning outings is a weird way to use your best reliever IMO. If he needs two days off after that, you kinda set yourself up for failure when your bullpen is so lean. Like, who’s another good 8/9 inning option right now? I’d like to have him available for 9th inning save situations only. But that requires 1) starters going longer 2) other relievers stepping up

They aren't going to be using him on consecutive days. They also aren't going to be using him in the ninth when the tough matchups are in a different inning. This is how it is going to be, full stop. 

[cheeseheadgophfan]

2 minutes ago, wabene said:

They aren't going to be using him on consecutive days. They also aren't going to be using him in the ninth when the tough matchups are in a different inning. This is how it is going to be, full stop. 

They aren't going to use Duran in the 9th when there are tough matchups?   Huh?  Who is a tough matchup for Duran?  I'd take a tough matchup for Duran vs any MLB hitter vs. Duffey.  

Duran should be the closer.  Period.  Against any matchup.  Occasionally used for 2 inning saves the way the Yankees used to use Mariano Rivera.

[jorgenswest]

45 minutes ago, Swing Batter-Batter said:

I agree. If you leave Smeltzer in for one more inning, Duffey never gets in the game.

It is more likely Cotton never gets in the game.

You can’t just push Cotton to the 6th and assume the results are the same. They had the match up they wanted for Cotton with the 8th place hitter coming up. They decided that Cotton gave them a better chance against those three right handed batters than Smeltzer. He came in and pitched a clean inning.

If they leave in Smeltzer for the 5th the plan is still Jax to the middle of the line up in the 6th, Smith for the 7th and Duran for the last two.

[wabene]

10 minutes ago, cheeseheadgophfan said:

They aren't going to use Duran in the 9th when there are tough matchups?   Huh?  Who is a tough matchup for Duran?  I'd take a tough matchup for Duran vs any MLB hitter vs. Duffey.  

Duran should be the closer.  Period.  Against any matchup.  Occasionally used for 2 inning saves the way the Yankees used to use Mariano Rivera.

Please reread my post. 

[wabene]

1 hour ago, jmlease1 said:

I'm baffled by all of the angst directed towards our manager after a win. A win! It sure feels like a subset of Twins fans has decided that Rocco = Bad, period, and comes here looking for something to be mad about. Pulling Smeltzer an inning "early"? seemed reasonable considering he didn't have great command, with Springer coming up (who had been killing him). I might have gone with Jax a 2nd inning myself, but with the day off pending, I get the mindset. It was disappointing to see Duffey implode with the big lead, but rolling him out there to mop up the game in the 9th made perfect sense.

The strategies for the bullpen were fine. Some of the moves worked great. Some of them didn't go as well. But nitpicking every. single. move! the manager/pitching coach makes in every game all season is exhausting. Rocco's fine. He does a good job in managing his clubhouse and roster (his primary strength) and is decent enough strategically. Managerial performance is overrated, usually by people needing someone to blame for stuff. Every season you have 5-7 managers who are obviously superior and really impact their team's season, 5-7 who stink and hurt their team's chances, and 15-20 who fall in the middle who either seem interchangeable or whose true value is unquantifiable. Put Rocco in the middle group. It's fine. He's not in the basement crew, and the people who think he is are not going to be satisfied with the next guy either.

A fine win against a really good club. Toronto has some terrific players. Nice to see a few guys for us step up with big bombs; Sanchez just missed one and then got it back in the next AB by hitting it to a slightly smaller part of the park. Larnach hit a missile. Arraez is so hard to keep off base, I love it. He's a nightmare for RHPs.

Very good post.