Tigers 3, Twins 2: Nick Gordon Show isn't Enough

[bean5302]

I'm in agreement with some other comments. Archer was pitching well. Throwing strikes and moving through the batters very efficiently with only 57 pitches. He's gone to 80 pitches with regularity this season so yanking him after 5 innings doesn't seem reasonable, especially when the last 2 innings went 1-2-3 (base running error in the 4th). 

[bean5302]

Regarding Duran, he's pitched 16 innings in the past 2 years due to the 2020 lost MiLB season and being shut down almost all of last year with a UCL sprain treated with rest and rehab. He was probably destined for the bullpen this year regardless of whether or not he was going to be pitching at the MLB level.

On top of that, Duran wasn't successful as a starter in 2019 at AA (4.86 ERA) or 2021 at AAA (5.06 ERA). 

I can't explain Baldelli's thoughts on where he pulls or places pitchers.

[Aggies7]

Duran is suited for the role he’s in. Trying to make him a starter would be disastrous.

[Major League Ready]

13 hours ago, Five minute major said:

This team is not going anywhere.   The schedule makers did Rocco a tremendous favor because this team is below average at best.  We just lost four of five to the Tigers and scored two runs total in 3 games.  Unforgivable.  What is it going to take for Rocco to be let go.   We will never go anwhere with him at the helm unless you are the typical Minnesota fan who is satisfied with moral victories and first round playoff exits.  

Should we let Buxton and Polanco go too.   They have been horrible lately.  Correa has not been on the field.  Let him go too.  Even Arraez did not hit during this series.  Blaming Rocco because the team is not hitting is just comical.

[Major League Ready]

8 hours ago, rv78 said:

Why isn't Duran the closer? Because Rocco won't use rookies in high leverage situations such as the closer role if he has a veteran that is half as good. Even last year when they were in last place he went back to using Colome as his closer and didn't even try Alcala in that role until the last game of the season. If there ever was a time to start grooming a player for a specific role such as a closer, the time was then. Alcala could have been closing games all of September. Another Rocco mistake that was made last year that he continues to make this year. 

He has closed games.  That was not the most important situation yesterday.  He was put in yesterday because the top of Detroit's line-up has been doing damage and 1-3 were due up yesterday when he came in.  

*** Sorry, didn't see the other posts before I made this one and repeated what was already said..

[Mark G]

7 hours ago, bean5302 said:

I'm in agreement with some other comments. Archer was pitching well. Throwing strikes and moving through the batters very efficiently with only 57 pitches. He's gone to 80 pitches with regularity this season so yanking him after 5 innings doesn't seem reasonable, especially when the last 2 innings went 1-2-3 (base running error in the 4th). 

Third time through the lineup; nothing more, nothing less.  It usually takes more than 57 pitches for him to get through the first 2 times so it appears strange that he would be pulled after so few, but pitch count has nothing to do with it.  The computer says 3 times through is a no no.  Always remember, the plan is 3-6 pitchers a game 162 games a year.  And that is never going to change regardless how the starter is doing.  At the end of the day, the plan is more important than individual games, so we will always have games like today.  A lot of the folks on TD agree with that.  Some of us don't.  But that pretty much sums up how the team is managed and always will be with this 3 some.  Starters have their limits, again, regardless of how they are throwing that day, and no reliever is designated in a role, be that 7th, 8th, 9th, middle innings, or long relief.  Entirely mix and match.  None of this is my opinion; I have given my opinion on this subject multiple times, and keep getting told the new and better way of playing the game is here and you will like it.    What I am saying today is the accumulation of comments made over the years by our big 3 and what their overall plan/outlook is.  So if you like analytics, pitch counts, innings limits, no fixed roles, and a season long shuttle bus between here and St. Paul shuffling pitchers, you will defend this management.  On the other hand..............either way, no one is going to change their minds.  It is what it is and you will like it!

[Aggies7]

A team as limited in relievers simply can’t do the 3-6 (closer to 6) pitcher a game thing. Sure it will work sometime but there are just too many unreliable relievers to expect to hold a marginal lead, which we usually have because we can’t hit worth a hill of beans. I don’t understand refusing to adjust to what best suits the makeup of the team. 

[2wins87]

8 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Regarding Duran, he's pitched 16 innings in the past 2 years due to the 2020 lost MiLB season and being shut down almost all of last year with a UCL sprain treated with rest and rehab. He was probably destined for the bullpen this year regardless of whether or not he was going to be pitching at the MLB level.

On top of that, Duran wasn't successful as a starter in 2019 at AA (4.86 ERA) or 2021 at AAA (5.06 ERA). 

I can't explain Baldelli's thoughts on where he pulls or places pitchers.

In addition to the potential lack of durability, the fact that he doesn't have a true changeup is probably a big part of the reason that his stats as a starter last year weren't nearly as good as they are as a reliever this year.  His unique splinker is the result of them trying to develop a changeup (splitter). It doesn't have a big velo difference from his fastball, and at its worst he's probably basically just getting sinker action, and not enough vertical drop that you see from a good splitter.

The splinker has basically been his only weakness, and he's mostly gone away from the pitch after the Orioles hit back to back home runs off of it. I think it could still be a good pitch when mixed in more sparingly as a reliever, and hopefully he can still refine the movement/velocity. I think he is probably one of those guys that is just much more effective as a reliever.

[Karbo]

16 hours ago, KnoblauchWasFramed said:

Some thoughts on Jhoan Duran...

His entire Minor League career we was a starter and was clearly successful enough at it to get the call up to The Show this season.  So again I have to ask, why is this team always so quick to toss someone into the bullpen who is considered a "hard thrower"?  With the lack of stars in the rotation and now with all of the injury issues wouldn't Duran have best been used as a Starter out of the gates and not just thrown into the Bullpen to see if he'll sink or swim??  Every pitching coach and manager he has played for considered him a starter until, of course, he runs into the Rocco-LLama who is apparently wiser than everyone else and who sees a 7th inning 3-out arm that can hit 103 MPH on the gun.  Imagine that 13 K/9 and 0.80 WHIP spread out over 40 innings instead of 22.  I just don't understand how the Twins need starters, they trade for a high ceiling flame thrower who is a starter on the rise, he could have slotted in right easily over Dylan Bundy and even Chris Archer right out of Spring Training, but Rocco decides "nah, I want him mowing people down in the middle innings so let's abandon his top of the rotation potential ASAP."

Ok, so fine, smarter men than I have determined he's a Bullpen guy.  So then why is he getting the 6th and 7th innings today?  (Don't even get me started on the whopping 59 whole pitches Archer was allowed to throw today).  If the Twins refuse to let him be a starter than shouldn't they be taking advantage of his abilities as the Closer????  Yes, Pagan has been league average at the Closer so far, but it's not like we traded for the Padres Closer since he's had a career high 20 saves in 2019 with the Rays and 2 with the Padres.  His numbers as a middle relief guy weren't even that great at all in 2020 and 2021.  So why continue to use him instead of moving Duran into the position full time.  Pagan isn't part of the 2023 Twins plans since he'll cost over $4M+ after arb if he keeps getting saves.  

Anyone else have any thoughts?

I'm glad to see someone else feels the same as I do about our Management. I'll add to what you said. He used both Duran and Pagan up so who's going to pitch if by chance we get a lead to protect tonight? We can pretty much bet it wont be Duran for at least a couple days after throwing 2 innings and back to backs seem to be too much stress on the arms of todays bullpen arms according to the Swami Balldelli. After all we need to save those arms for later in the season when it may just be too late unless they make some changes in a big way and in a hurry!

[rwilfong86]

2 minutes ago, Karbo said:

He used both Duran and Pagan up so who's going to pitch if by chance we get a lead to protect tonight? 

Probably Duffey knowing how Rocco manages. 

[Karbo]

1 hour ago, Mark G said:

Third time through the lineup; nothing more, nothing less.  It usually takes more than 57 pitches for him to get through the first 2 times so it appears strange that he would be pulled after so few, but pitch count has nothing to do with it.  The computer says 3 times through is a no no.  Always remember, the plan is 3-6 pitchers a game 162 games a year.  And that is never going to change regardless how the starter is doing.  At the end of the day, the plan is more important than individual games, so we will always have games like today.  A lot of the folks on TD agree with that.  Some of us don't.  But that pretty much sums up how the team is managed and always will be with this 3 some.  Starters have their limits, again, regardless of how they are throwing that day, and no reliever is designated in a role, be that 7th, 8th, 9th, middle innings, or long relief.  Entirely mix and match.  None of this is my opinion; I have given my opinion on this subject multiple times, and keep getting told the new and better way of playing the game is here and you will like it.    What I am saying today is the accumulation of comments made over the years by our big 3 and what their overall plan/outlook is.  So if you like analytics, pitch counts, innings limits, no fixed roles, and a season long shuttle bus between here and St. Paul shuffling pitchers, you will defend this management.  On the other hand..............either way, no one is going to change their minds.  It is what it is and you will like it!

I don't know what it is, but it sure aint baseball!