Game Thread: Twins @ Tigers, 6/2/22, 12:10PM CDT (10:10AM PDT)

[Irishman]

Baldelli needs to be fired.   He is dumber than the 5th graders.    i am done with this stinking Twins.   Good Riddance!   

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, KirbyDome89 said:

So you'd rather see Duran hold a deficit against the bottom of the order rather than the actual lead against the top? 

Who says he would face the bottom? You’re assuming. Higher leverage late inning situations exist and some guys do better than others. Anyone who has seen pagan pitch this year could not possibly be as comfortable with him out there in the 8th or 9th than in the 6th or 7th. 

[LVTwinsfan]

57 pitches by Archer.  His longest outing innings wise, but not number of pitches, he could have pitched 1 more.  It’s not like the bullpen is gonna shut them down 4 innings, Why do I get the feeling that they just don’t care about these games 

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, LVTwinsfan said:

57 pitches by Archer.  His longest outing innings wise, but not number of pitches, he could have pitched 1 more.  It’s not like the bullpen is gonna shut them down 4 innings, Why do I get the feeling that they just don’t care about these games 

Yup, the problems begin with a starter continually only going 4 innings. Not many other options right now with injuries and such but that really hamstrings a bullpen and manager when you continually have to fill 5 innings every time the guy starts 

[SwainZag]

3 minutes ago, Irishman said:

Baldelli needs to be fired.   He is dumber than the 5th graders.    i am done with this stinking Twins.   Good Riddance!   

Top 6 in the order went 1-24 today,  if that's Rocco's fault then....

[KirbyDome89]

2 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Who says he would face the bottom? You’re assuming. Higher leverage late inning situations exist and some guys do better than others. Anyone who has seen pagan pitch this year could not possibly be as comfortable with him out there in the 8th or 9th than in the 6th or 7th. 

Aren't we all here? Who's to say the game is still in reach if we're feeding mediocre/poor bullpen options to the middle & top of lineups in a 1 run game? The goal is to have the best matchups, which the Twins did with Duran facing hitters 1-6 and shutting them down.

Pagan couldn't get through a single inning. That's on him, not the manager for his usage. As far as comfortability goes, there isn't a reliever outside of Duran I feel comfortable watching right now. 

[CRF]

10 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Again, would you rather have three at bats to overcome a deficit or one (or none)? 

Agreed. They can't keep trotting out Pagan toward the end, or at the end of games. He's not reliable. I know Duran is raw, but I'd have him there every chance I got. I'd rather risk that, than the alternatives. 

[Aggies7]

5 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Aren't we all here? Who's to say the game is still in reach if we're feeding mediocre/poor bullpen options to the middle & top of lineups in a 1 run game? The goal is to have the best matchups, which the Twins did with Duran facing hitters 1-6 and shutting them down.

Pagan couldn't get through a single inning. That's on him, not the manager for his usage. As far as comfortability goes, there isn't a reliever outside of Duran I feel comfortable watching right now. 

It’s on the manager to put the players in the situation where they have shown to perform the best. The 8th/9th innings are not those situations for pagan. Rocco can keep doing it and the twins can keep losing. No sweat off my head

[chpettit19]

3 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

It’s on the manager to put the players in the situation where they have shown to perform the best. The 8th/9th innings are not those situations for pagan. Rocco can keep doing it and the twins can keep losing. No sweat off my head

Emilio Pagan has an ERA of 0.87 in the 9th inning this year. 13 Ks in 10.1 innings. If that's not him performing at his best I'm excited to see what his best is. 

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

Emilio Pagan has an ERA of 0.87 in the 9th inning this year. 13 Ks in 10.1 innings. If that's not him performing at his best I'm excited to see what his best is. 

Did you watch those games or just cherry pick some numbers?

[Doctor Gast]

Sad game, Duran was awesome, Archer should've won the game. Gordon was the only player that done anything. Another game the Twins should've won

[rwilfong86]

21 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Who says he would face the bottom? You’re assuming. Higher leverage late inning situations exist and some guys do better than others. Anyone who has seen pagan pitch this year could not possibly be as comfortable with him out there in the 8th or 9th than in the 6th or 7th. 

I'd rather the Twins give up the go ahead homerun in the 6th with 3 more chances at bat than the 8th with only one

[chpettit19]

Just now, Aggies7 said:

Did you watch those games or just look at the numbers?

I watched them. He didn't give up runs. I'm pretty sure that's his job description.

[chpettit19]

Just now, rwilfong86 said:

I'd rather the Twins give up the go ahead homerun in the 6th with 3 more chances at bat than the 8th with only one

Why? The hitters would actually try in the 7th, 8th, and 9th if they'd been losing?

[Doctor Gast]

19 minutes ago, SwainZag said:

Top 6 in the order went 1-24 today,  if that's Rocco's fault then....

Batters whom you count on to do something did basically nothing, really sad

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

I watched them. He didn't give up runs. I'm pretty sure that's his job description.

So then you know he’s blown three saves in the 8th inning alone, then?

[KirbyDome89]

2 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

It’s on the manager to put the players in the situation where they have shown to perform the best. The 8th/9th innings are not those situations for pagan. Rocco can keep doing it and the twins can keep losing. No sweat off my head

I agree, it is, and Duran has shown he's able to get other team's best hitters out. If Pagan & Co. are getting blown up in the 6th and 7th we're not saying "hey, at least we've got a few innings to attempt a comeback," we're questioning why the Twins aren't getting hitters out to ensure it stays a tight game late. I'm with you as far as Pagan is concerned, his underlying numbers are gross, and it's been a lot of playing the results with him. Now we're starting to see those results regress back towards the mean. Rocco can't hide everyone in the bullpen outside of the Duran though. He can only cook with the ingredients he's given.

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

Why? The hitters would actually try in the 7th, 8th, and 9th if they'd been losing?

Yeah I’d rather have 3 outs to make up a deficit then 9. For sure, yeah.

[KirbyDome89]

1 minute ago, Aggies7 said:

Yeah I’d rather have 3 outs to make up a deficit then 9. For sure, yeah.

The point is why not make up that deficit in the 7th or 8th instead of the 9th? 

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Aggies7 said:

So then you know he’s blown three saves in the 8th inning alone, then?

So they should've saved him for the 9th? Where he has a 0.87 ERA, but you suggest he can't get late inning outs. The inning he's pitching isn't the concern. Either he can get guys out or he can't. He's got 29 career saves. The late inning isn't scaring him.

[chpettit19]

3 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

Yeah I’d rather have 3 outs to make up a deficit then 9. For sure, yeah.

They still got those 9 outs to hit. They didn't score. There is no logical reason to believe they'd score runs during the 7th, 8th, or 9th if they were losing if they didn't score during them when they were winning. They got their entire 27 outs today and they scored 2 runs. The point in the game that they fell behind by 1 run doesn't matter. They scored 2 runs in 27 outs. It wouldn't magically become 4 runs had they fallen behind in the 6th. They didn't score. Period. Extend the lead in the 7th and 8th and that HR doesn't give up the lead.

[Aggies7]

Just now, chpettit19 said:

So they should've saved him for the 9th? Where he has a 0.87 ERA, but you suggest he can't get late inning outs. The inning he's pitching isn't the concern. Either he can get guys out or he can't. He's got 29 career saves. The late inning isn't scaring him.

No they should have used him in the 6th. He’s walked far too many guys this year. Way above career average for an entire season already. I know classic baseball strategy is not allowed in 2022 but You don’t use a guy with poor control in the 8/9. His career save number is irrelevant. 

[Aggies7]

2 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

They still got those 9 outs to hit. They didn't score. There is no logical reason to believe they'd score runs during the 7th, 8th, or 9th if they were losing if they didn't score during them when they were winning. They got their entire 27 outs today and they scored 2 runs. The point in the game that they fell behind by 1 run doesn't matter. They scored 2 runs in 27 outs. It wouldn't magically become 4 runs had they fallen behind in the 6th. They didn't score. Period. Extend the lead in the 7th and 8th and that HR doesn't give up the lead.

Hey listen I’m with you on the offense but continuing to put a guy in a situation where he’s either failed or nearly failed is incompetent management. 

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Aggies7 said:

No they should have used him in the 6th. He’s walked far too many guys this year. Way above career average for an entire season already. I know classic baseball strategy is not allowed in 2022 but You don’t use a guy with poor control in the 8/9. His career save number is irrelevant. 

Why is it irrelevant? The point you've been trying to make is "Higher leverage late inning situations exist." They do. The reason guys don't pitch in the 9th isn't because they have "poor control," it's because they can't handle the pressure of those high leverage situations. Emilio Pagan isn't overwhelmed by the situation, he's just not that good. The inning in which he's not that good doesn't matter. Saving Duran for those high leverage situations is pointless if there's no high leverage situation left by the time you want to use him.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Aggies7 said:

Hey listen I’m with you on the offense but continuing to put a guy in a situation where he’s either failed or nearly failed is incompetent management. 

Who else should pitch those innings? The answer can't just be Duran. That's the point. Somebody else in the bullpen has to get outs. You wouldn't be here praising Rocco if Pagan had given up the lead in the 6th or 7th instead of the 8th. You'd just be complaining about Rocco using Pagan at all. Right now Duran is the only reliable reliever. You can't use him in every inning. The pen is bad. Nothing Rocco can do to fix that.

[Aggies7]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

Why is it irrelevant? The point you've been trying to make is "Higher leverage late inning situations exist." They do. The reason guys don't pitch in the 9th isn't because they have "poor control," it's because they can't handle the pressure of those high leverage situations. Emilio Pagan isn't overwhelmed by the situation, he's just not that good. The inning in which he's not that good doesn't matter. Saving Duran for those high leverage situations is pointless if there's no high leverage situation left by the time you want to use him.

“The reason guys don't pitch in the 9th isn't because they have "poor control,””

 

it’s one of the reasons. 

[Aggies7]

6 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Who else should pitch those innings? The answer can't just be Duran. That's the point. Somebody else in the bullpen has to get outs. You wouldn't be here praising Rocco if Pagan had given up the lead in the 6th or 7th instead of the 8th. You'd just be complaining about Rocco using Pagan at all. Right now Duran is the only reliable reliever. You can't use him in every inning. The pen is bad. Nothing Rocco can do to fix that.

Again I agree there aren’t great options. But If we’re going to fall behind I’d rather fall behind going into the 7th rather than the 9th. If the tigers tied or led off pagan in the 6th, do they bring in the same pitchers? Do the twins pinch hit differently? 

[chpettit19]

11 minutes ago, Aggies7 said:

If we’re going to fall behind I’d rather fall behind going into the 7th rather than the 9th. To say you wouldn’t as well is just nonsense

I don't know how else to explain this. The stance you're attempting to take here is literally that the hitters would try harder, or become better, if they're down instead of up. If that's the case the team is screwed anyways. I don't care what inning they fall behind in because it doesn't matter. The hitters don't magically get better because they're trailing in the 7th. Either they're going to get hits and score or they aren't. There's no magic boost based on the inning. 

The Twins got 27 outs today. They scored 2 runs. The Tigers got 24 outs today and scored 3 runs. Claiming the Twins would've scored more than 2 runs in their 27 outs had the Tigers only scored 1 run in their first 24 outs is not the logical argument you think it is.

[bunsen82]

chpettit,  you still stand by this is a contending team in the playoffs?

 

[chpettit19]

Just now, bunsen82 said:

chpettit,  you still stand by this is a contending team in the playoffs?

 

I stand by them needing to be healthy and get bullpen help then anything can happen in October, yes.