Tigers 4, Twins 0: Listless Twins Limp to Defeat in Detroit

[wabene]

5 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

These takes are just so bizarre.  A decimated squad has a bad game of ABs and we rush to complain about Baldelli?  The hell?

Thank you. I guess people have to vent. Tom F said it well, Rocco manages to the 162 game schedule, sometimes the decisions that produces are hard for those that live and die with every game to take.

 

[KFEY93]

1 minute ago, wabene said:

Thank you. I guess people have to vent. Tom F said it well, Rocco manages to the 162 game schedule, sometimes the decisions that produces are hard for those that live and die with every game to take.

 

This isnt as much about the game as his entire tenure here. The aberration that was 2019 is holding him up. The rest of his team here has been subpar at best. 

[wabene]

Rocco this and Rocco that. Conveniently Those That Whine complained about that lineup in game two, but we're noticeably silent about Buxton playing 2 GAMES IN ONE DAY. Hilarious. 

[Riverbrian]

51 minutes ago, mikelink45 said:

I am okay with one series, but I do not want to see a trend.  With our depleted lineup we have to win against these teams. 

And the Tiger fans are saying that they have to win these games against a depleted lineup. ?

 

[Dave The Dastardly]

1 hour ago, bighat said:

Buxton and Polanco are really hurting this team. Aside from the hot April from Buxton, we really haven't seen much contribution from either player. Correa's been injured or sick for 50% of the campaign and he's getting "rest days" 2x per week.

In short, the Twins' key players aren't playing much and when they are, they're not playing well.

I really don't see how this team wins more than 2 games against Toronto, NYY, Tampa and Seattle on the upcoming menu. Twins should be back to .500 by June 15th. And that's OK. We just have to really adjust our expectations now, because it's going to be a very bumpy ride and it might help one to prepare for it.

The Twins will be the most well-rested players watching this season's play-offs from home.

But many of us expected nothing more than a .500 season this year as there are still too many missing parts for this bunch to be a serious contender. What this season should be is the final building year before we become a serious contender in 2023. But only if we stop signing up retreads, fielding players that won't help next year and start playing every day those that need the major league experience and can help us next year. And not all over the field, but at one position where they can master positional skills, become comfortable playing there and can focus on hitting. Same with the bullpen. Give them a role so they anticipate when they will be used, know how long they'll be on the mound and how often they will be used.

Of course all that's assuming Rocco will actually let position players play long enough to develop familiarity with their position, quit screwing around with nonsensical batting lineups, expect starting pitchers go at least 6, preferably 7 innings, and learn how to properly use a bull pen so as not to burn it out by mid-season. And for godsakes stop designating "rest" days for a player whether he's tired or not and not using them as pinch hitters on their "off day".

World Series in 2023!!!

[ashbury]

14 minutes ago, KFEY93 said:

Take Garlic out of those numbers...where do we sit? 

Take every team's platoon masher out of the picture, if you want to make that comparison.

[KFEY93]

12 minutes ago, Dave The Dastardly said:

The Twins will be the most well-rested players watching this season's play-offs from home.

But many of us expected nothing more than a .500 season this year as there are still too many missing parts for this bunch to be a serious contender. What this season should be is the final building year before we become a serious contender in 2023. But only if we stop signing up retreads, fielding players that won't help next year and start playing every day those that need the major league experience and can help us next year. And not all over the field, but at one position where they can master positional skills, become comfortable playing there and can focus on hitting. Same with the bullpen. Give them a role so they anticipate when they will be used, know how long they'll be on the mound and how often they will be used.

Of course all that's assuming Rocco will actually let position players play long enough to develop familiarity with their position, quit screwing around with nonsensical batting lineups, expect starting pitchers go at least 6, preferably 7 innings, and learn how to properly use a bull pen so as not to burn it out by mid-season. And for godsakes stop designating "rest" days for a player whether he's tired or not and not using them as pinch hitters on their "off day".

World Series in 2023!!!

Shout it from the mountain tops! 

[TheLeviathan]

25 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

based on one game, one series, one month this is a bizarre take, I 100% agree, basing it on the whole of his time here isn't bizarre, might not be the same take as others, but it isn't completely off the wall since quite a few people have the same take.

Then have a Baldelli gripe thread.  This is a single game article where people discuss the goings-on of one game.  Turning every one of these into a (often) baseless Baldelli whine-fest is obnoxious and unnecessary.

Also, the idea that "lots of people think it!" is justification for it being valid is fallacious reasoning.  

[KFEY93]

10 minutes ago, ashbury said:

Take every team's platoon masher out of the picture, if you want to make that comparison.

He's not an every day starter and is one of 9 people in the line up when he does play. Im curious what this lineup would be doing against lefties with out him to show how sub par the rest of the team has been. 

[KFEY93]

1 minute ago, TheLeviathan said:

Then have a Baldelli gripe thread.  This is a single game article where people discuss the goings-on of one game.  Turning every one of these into a (often) baseless Baldelli whine-fest is obnoxious and unnecessary.

Also, the idea that "lots of people think it!" is justification for it being valid is fallacious reasoning.  

However, its not baseless, you countered nothing I stated because you know its true. The truth can be obnoxious some times for people that choose to ignore it. 

[TheLeviathan]

27 minutes ago, KFEY93 said:

What has he done or shown besides mismanaging lineups, creating zero consistency in the roster and mismanaging pitchers mid game? The only thing holding him up is the 2019 season in which he lucked into having every player have a career year on offense with a juiced ball. I could have managed that team to 100 wins. As time goes on its showing more and more to be the aberration and 2020, 2021 are the real face of this team. And that will be the case until we have a legit ace, proven BP arms and a manager that doesn't rely on excel spread sheets to manage a game. The blind support for mediocrity is what's so bizarre about Minnesota sports fans. 

The team is 30-21 with a 5 game lead while their best player has been in a month long tailspin, their second best player has been in and out of the lineup due to injury and now covid, their third best player is in the midst of a rough stretch, the pitching staff has been decimated by injury, and Covid has added a nice touch just to keep things interesting.

I'm personally of the belief that managers are largely irrelevant, but people need to take a breath and perhaps contemplate the full array of facts.  I mean, you're trying so god damn hard to have your belief that you're literally cherry picking out Garlick to make points.  Maybe, if you have to try that hard to make a point, there's something wrong with your point.

[TwinsDr2021]

17 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Then have a Baldelli gripe thread.  This is a single game article where people discuss the goings-on of one game.  Turning every one of these into a (often) baseless Baldelli whine-fest is obnoxious and unnecessary.

Also, the idea that "lots of people think it!" is justification for it being valid is fallacious reasoning.  

Not sure why you replied to my message, did I gripe about Baldelli? NOPE!

I gave valid reason somebody might have that opinion, you do understand it is OK for people to have differing opinions?

Not sure why you used quotes around lots of people think it, you actually quoted it and then misquoted it. I know quite a few people that love Rocco, quite a few that can't stand him, and quite a few that are still giving him the benefit of the doubt, All of those are perfectly fine opinions to have.

Also when replying to my messages, please try to be respectful.

[TheLeviathan]

7 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Not sure why you replied to my message, did I gripe about Baldelli? NOPE!

I gave valid reason somebody might have that opinion, you do understand it is OK for people to have differing opinions?

Not sure why you used quotes around lots of people think it, you actually quoted it and then misquoted it. I know quite a few people that love Rocco, quite a few that can't stand him, and quite a few that are still giving him the benefit of the doubt, All of those are perfectly fine opinions to have.

Also when replying to my messages, please try to be respectful.

First, I wasn't speaking to you in the first place and you interjected yourself so I responded.  If you didn't want to start a conversation, you didn't need to interject in the first place.  Second, my response was completely respectful.  Fallacious is not an insult, it is an adjective to describe reasoning that is out of whack.  A billion people can think Baldelli is bad at his job and it adds no actual weight to criticisms if they can't stand on their own.

I suggested an alternative for people who have a problem with Baldelli.  Coming into every post-game thread for generic Baldelli ripping is old.  Specific criticisms of in-game actions?  Sure, makes total sense.  The poster I quoted had no detailed or meaningful criticism to offer.  So I took issue with "Baldelli sucks!" as a constant minefield in every thread. It's borderline trolling and I merely pointed that out to another poster who you rushed to defend. 

[chpettit19]

29 minutes ago, KFEY93 said:

He's not an every day starter and is one of 9 people in the line up when he does play. Im curious what this lineup would be doing against lefties with out him to show how sub par the rest of the team has been. 

He's not an everyday starter so @ashbury suggested taking out the other team's non-everyday starter to compare things. That's how you'd compare things. A comparison of the Twins' less than best lineup vs the other team's best lineups isn't a great measure of anything at all.

For your own peace of mind I'll let you know the Twins have 565 total PAs against left handed pitchers this year. Kyle Garlick has 32 of them. That's 5.66% of their ABs. He's got 3 HRs in those 32 ABs so he's certainly helped. I'm not going to take the time to run the numbers without his 32 PAs, but I'm quite certain his whopping 5.66% of PAs isn't going to significantly change the overall stats.

Oh, and as for Rocco and the overall results of his career to this point, the Twins are top 10 in baseball in both pitching (8th) and hitting (4th) fWAR since he took over. 2019 must've been crazy good to still be carrying them to top 10 rankings in both pitching and hitting 3 years later. He has a 240-195 W-L record. That's good for a 55.2% winning percentage. That's good for a 89/90 win season on average. 2019 really propping that up, too. He has seasons of 62.3% and 60% winning percentages and is at 58.8% this year. So if you're taking the entirety of his time here into consideration you must be looking at different results than me. And I don't even like Rocco that much. Think he's just another guy as a manager. But the stats show his results have been pretty darn impressive. Even with 2021 being a complete disaster.

[Schmoeman5]

3 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

I said they needed to end the month 14 -6, if they win today it will be 13 - 7, which is decent enough, and doing it with hand or two tied behind their back (injuries/covid) is good.

If they can go 11 - 10 in the next 21 days and get healthier that IMO should be considered a success, and set them up for a good end of season run.

 

As for the game did anybody really think the Twins were going to win this game with Sands pitching and lineup that included Miranda, Jeffers, Palacios, Gordon, and Garlick? I didn't!

Garlick the lefty slayer should have been sufficient to win this game single handedly 

[Schmoeman5]

I keep hearing throw away games. What exactly is that? You play 162 games. How many of these "throwaway" does a team get. If a team finishes 1 or 2 games out of a playoff spot does said team get to rub a genie lamp for a do over on those games?

[Rosterman]

12 hours ago, GNess said:

This recent streak of mediocrity is a concern. It is also attributable to the number of injuries keeping players from regular at bats or innings with some of the pitchers.

For the Twins to ascend to a more competitive footing with the top of the AL they likely need some strong combination of the following: 

1. Correa and Arraez in the line up regularly.

2. Buxton and Polanco to hit and hit consistently. Along with solid performances building on recent trends from Sanchez, Urshela and Kepler.

3. One or more of the young guns to step up:: (Larnach, Kirilloff, Lewis, Miranda)

4. A healthy Ryan, Ober and Gray giving  a lot of quality starts. 

5. A few impactful deadline additions to the pitching staff. Internal and/or external.

Not sure if all five will occur, but none of them are unthinkable and are each possible/probable.

If all of this COULD happen, the Twins would be unstoppable. I hope they do move on from a couple of veteran starters who have inning limits. I am hoping they pitch well enoiugh that a "lesser" team will at least trade a low level prospect for them.

I had hoped better from Sands and Balazovic in St. Paul. Looks like they need a full season. Disappointed in Strotman. Henriquez is overmatched and should be cycled back to AA ball. Now I just hope the Twins will advance up to three prospects out of Wichita by mid-season to get their work against better batting.

Although, right now, the Twins look interesting going into 2023: Ryan, Ober, WInder, Smeltzer. Whew. Throw in Madea coming back. You will still have Gray. And Paddack will be in the wings by mid-season (hopefully).

The joy is that the next 4-6 arms in the pipeline will ALL have pitched at least 100 innings in 2022, if not more.

[cheeseheadgophfan]

Personally, I thought Detroit's starting pitcher looked really good.  Tall, strong lefty who was hitting the corners with a 95 MPH fastball with movement.  He was a first round draft pick.  Not chopped liver.  You could see in the 5th his velocity dropped about 5 mph......the catcher saw it pretty quick.  Hope he's ok.

Sands deserved a little better.  How is Polanco's play in the 2nd inning considered a hit??  He's a major leaguer and that play HAS to be made with 2 outs.  Directly cost us 2 runs.  

Tigers bullpen is pretty good.  I'd swap our bullpen with theirs right now.  

[cHawk]

5 hours ago, KFEY93 said:

I think he needs to be booted, out the door. 

5 hours ago, KFEY93 said:

The only thing holding him up is the 2019 season in which he lucked into having every player have a career year on offense with a juiced ball. I could have managed that team to 100 wins. As time goes on its showing more and more to be the aberration and 2020, 2021 are the real face of this team.

4 hours ago, KFEY93 said:

This isnt as much about the game as his entire tenure here. The aberration that was 2019 is holding him up. The rest of his team here has been subpar at best. 

4 hours ago, KFEY93 said:

However, its not baseless, you countered nothing I stated because you know its true. The truth can be obnoxious some times for people that choose to ignore it. 

2019 is the aberration but 2021 is the rule? Where is your evidence to back this up? Everyone performed well in 2019. That's true. Everyone also performed like **** and got injured in 2021. 

Furthermore, you're saying a sample size of 162 games completely trumps a sample size of 273. That doesn't work.

[Schmoeman5]

29 minutes ago, alexthegreat said:

2019 is the aberration but 2021 is the rule? Where is your evidence to back this up? Everyone performed well in 2019. That's true. Everyone also performed like **** and got injured in 2021. 

Furthermore, you're saying a sample size of 162 games completely trumps a sample size of 273. That doesn't work.

There are times when I do question Baldellis moves. The pitching side I believe is pre-determined before each game by Falvinelli.  It's his bench moves that gets me. At least 6 or 7 times this year he's done the Garlick for Larnach substitution around the 6th or 7th inning. Garlick starts vs lefties Larnach vs righties. No issue there. But as soon as Garlick or Larnach are announced the opposing manager Immediately counters that move with a pitching substitution that negates any advantage the metrics show. With the bench already thinned out you lose any advantage you might gain with a ph later in games. Other times he subs in the whole bench en masse on days where Buxton is not under any circumstances available.  That and maybe some occasional small ball just to mix things up.

[wabene]

2 hours ago, Schmoeman5 said:

Falvinelli

New territory has come into play, Mark this occasion! 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

8 hours ago, KFEY93 said:

Take Garlic out of those numbers...where do we sit? 

Cherry pick your stats and they prove your narrative, no?

Garlick mashes lefties and Baldelli keeps trotting him out there against lefties