Berríos trade

[rwilfong86]

The Berríos trade is starting to look better and better. He's been up and down all season and got hammered against the Angels today.

[twinssporto]

2 hours ago, rwilfong86 said:

The Berríos trade is starting to look better and better. He's been up and down all season and got hammered against the Angels today.

I hate seeing that as I feel he was and will always be a part of the Twins organization. He might be down now but I wouldn't count him out. He's a tough athlete.

I'm glad it looks like a great trade for us but still wish him well.

 

 

 

 

[bean5302]

2 hours ago, rwilfong86 said:

The Berríos trade is starting to look better and better. He's been up and down all season and got hammered against the Angels today.

Oh really? Have you looked at the centerpiece of the trade recently?

Austin Martin .258/.377/.333 = .710 with 11 errors in 24 games started repeating AA.

Woods-Richardson, last 4 games = 6.30 ERA, again, repeating AA.

Both sides have seen player stocks tumble.

[Rosterman]

11 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

Oh really? Have you looked at the centerpiece of the trade recently?

Austin Martin .258/.377/.333 = .710 with 11 errors in 24 games started repeating AA.

Woods-Richardson, last 4 games = 6.30 ERA, again, repeating AA.

Both sides have seen player stocks tumble.

Austin Martin was signed out of college and last season was his first playing any type of minor league ball. Sure, Toronto didn't think highly enough that they traded him after paying him a $7 million bonus? Hey, the guy was traded mid-season.

Usually you start messing with a guy's position in the low minors. Reason he was repeating AA is because he was blocked, essentially, at St. Paul by the mroe highly regarded Lewis at shortstop. The Twins still wanted to keep him doing some reps at shortstop as they see what Correa is doing, and how well Lewis adapted after missing two seasons. (And, yes, I would keep Lewis mainly at shortstop and hope that Correa walks). 

Woods-Richardson is only 21. He probably should've started last season at A+ ball...and remember, he lost his age 19 season to COVID. He was very young to be at AA and, besides the organization change, he was on the Olympic team but didn't pitch. So he is right where he belongs. Actually, he got a little headstart. SO many young pitchers have to worry about hiting Rule 5 early. Woods-Richardson, unlike Balazovic alst season, should probably make the AAA jump. But expect him to spend most of 2023 in AAA St. Paul.

Again, wish more players walked off a college campus and stepped into major league ball, but not everyone is Dave WInfield and we still have the aluminum bat thing for both hitting and fielding balls for play adjustment.

Berrios is going to do jsut fine. $120 million fine will be the only question. But if he pitches out his contract, that shouldn't be a negative.

[rwilfong86]

1 hour ago, Rosterman said:

Austin Martin was signed out of college and last season was his first playing any type of minor league ball. Sure, Toronto didn't think highly enough that they traded him after paying him a $7 million bonus? Hey, the guy was traded mid-season.

Usually you start messing with a guy's position in the low minors. Reason he was repeating AA is because he was blocked, essentially, at St. Paul by the mroe highly regarded Lewis at shortstop. The Twins still wanted to keep him doing some reps at shortstop as they see what Correa is doing, and how well Lewis adapted after missing two seasons. (And, yes, I would keep Lewis mainly at shortstop and hope that Correa walks). 

Woods-Richardson is only 21. He probably should've started last season at A+ ball...and remember, he lost his age 19 season to COVID. He was very young to be at AA and, besides the organization change, he was on the Olympic team but didn't pitch. So he is right where he belongs. Actually, he got a little headstart. SO many young pitchers have to worry about hiting Rule 5 early. Woods-Richardson, unlike Balazovic alst season, should probably make the AAA jump. But expect him to spend most of 2023 in AAA St. Paul.

Again, wish more players walked off a college campus and stepped into major league ball, but not everyone is Dave WInfield and we still have the aluminum bat thing for both hitting and fielding balls for play adjustment.

Berrios is going to do jsut fine. $120 million fine will be the only question. But if he pitches out his contract, that shouldn't be a negative.

I think signing the huge contract is definitely adding pressure to Berríos he wasn't experiencing before. He was inconsistent with the Twins and knowing he wasn't going to re-sign, I'm glad they dealt him. I hated the move at the time but the more time that goes by it definitely looks like a great move. As you mentioned, Martin and SWR aren't tearing up the minors but I think with more experience they should be fine.

[rwilfong86]

2 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Oh really? Have you looked at the centerpiece of the trade recently?

Austin Martin .258/.377/.333 = .710 with 11 errors in 24 games started repeating AA.

Woods-Richardson, last 4 games = 6.30 ERA, again, repeating AA.

Both sides have seen player stocks tumble.

I think I would prefer to have AA prospects struggling than an ace I paid 100+ million to get lit up like a Christmas tree every time he faces better quality MLB teams. 

[Tim]

2 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Oh really? Have you looked at the centerpiece of the trade recently?

Austin Martin .258/.377/.333 = .710 with 11 errors in 24 games started repeating AA.

Woods-Richardson, last 4 games = 6.30 ERA, again, repeating AA.

Both sides have seen player stocks tumble.

Ya really.

Like what exactly is the point your even trying to make against this take right now.

[bean5302]

Here's the point... the trade hasn't been won or lost by anybody. Berrios is definitely having consistency issues, but I'd be a lot happier to see the prospects the Twins received in return playing well enough to warrant such a smug take on the trade right now. For that matter, I'd like to see Berrios pitching well because I think that's good for baseball in general and Berrios gave a lot to the Twins during his time here.

[rwilfong86]

6 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Here's the point... the trade hasn't been won or lost by anybody. Berrios is definitely having consistency issues, but I'd be a lot happier to see the prospects the Twins received in return playing well enough to warrant such a smug take on the trade right now. For that matter, I'd like to see Berrios pitching well because I think that's good for baseball in general and Berrios gave a lot to the Twins during his time here.

It's too soon to call it a win/loss for either team, but as I said in a previous post, I'm glad the Twins dealt him rather than give him a huge contract. When he has been good this year he has been good but when he is off it's been painful to watch, and yesterday's game is an example of that. I read some articles going into the season where several people considered Berríos a dark horse Cy Young candidate. I hope he can turn it around this year because I really want to see the Blue Jays pass the Yankees in the East. 

[rwilfong86]

10 hours ago, twinssporto said:

I hate seeing that as I feel he was and will always be a part of the Twins organization. He might be down now but I wouldn't count him out. He's a tough athlete.

I'm glad it looks like a great trade for us but still wish him well.

 

 

 

 

Agree with you completely. Hopefully he can bounce back. I'm glad the Twins aren't getting a line like that every couple of weeks though. 

[CRF]

My two cents...Berrios is/was a good, solid starter...that's all. He was our best starter, nothing more. He was never going to be an "ace" no matter what. Even though he was pretty much hyped as one here. Doesn't matter what team he'd be pitching for, he's never going to be a #1 or #2 starter. The Twins made the right decision not to give him a whopper contract. Whether or not the players we got for him pan out, it was worth the chance. 

[Major League Ready]

Way too early to make any firm conclusions.  However, I am very happy that they have the option to use that money on a free agent SP next year when Nola / Musgrove / Rodon / Syndergaard / Taillon / Perez & Manaea will be available.  This assumes Rodon has 110 IP and opts out which looks likely.  The thought of the following SP staff is quite appealing.

 1 of Nola / Musgrove / Rodon / Syndergaard / Taillon / Perez

Gray / Ryan / Winder / Ober / Smeltzer

That's quite a 6 man staff.  Plus, Dobnak has 3 Milb options, Canterino should be here next year and we could keep Maeda as well although my bet is he gets traded.  Although Canterino and Duran might end up playing a Josh Hader type roll.  That would be very helpful come playoff time or anytime for that matter.  

Perhaps the takeaway is that losing Berrios is hardly the tragedy that many people insisted it would be.  I would rather have Musgrove / Rodon / Syndergaard / Taillon and maybe even Perez if he keeps pitching the way he has been this year.  The prospects are just a bonus and Martin and who is to say the twin's considered Martin the centerpiece of the trade.  The FO may very well have place equal or greater value on SWR. 

BWT ... Assuming they decline Sano and trade Urshela, the Twins Payroll will be around $75M next year.  They will definitely have the payroll capacity to add one of these top free agents SPs and have money left over to invest in the BP and a FA Catcher.  I could see them paying up to keep Sanchez if he wants to stay.
                

[wabene]

50 minutes ago, CRF said:

My two cents...Berrios is/was a good, solid starter...that's all. He was our best starter, nothing more. He was never going to be an "ace" no matter what. Even though he was pretty much hyped as one here. Doesn't matter what team he'd be pitching for, he's never going to be a #1 or #2 starter. The Twins made the right decision not to give him a whopper contract. Whether or not the players we got for him pan out, it was worth the chance. 

I agree with much of what you state, but Berrios was ranked about the 30th best pitcher in MLB his last few years with us. Strong number 2 borderline number 1. You could count on close to 200 innings and 200 strikeouts. I'm a fan of Jose and I like the trade. 

[Nine of twelve]

Berrios is an underachiever. Watching him pitch via a center field camera I am amazed at the crazy movement he can get on his pitches. It sometimes makes me wonder how anyone ever gets bat on ball. It seems to me that he should dominate on a frequent basis but that rarely happens. I've never understood why, but that's how it has always been with him.

[TheLeviathan]

I don't know how you possibly define a "#2 starter" and Berrios wouldn't count.

Too early to tell on the trade.  Those that live to declare trades won and lost quickly usually live to look like fools more often than not.  I thought it was the right move then, I thought they got good value, and I'll see how this plays out.

[tony&rodney]

Way too early to make any pronouncements on the Berrios trade. Jose is still pitching for Toronto and the last I looked neither of the two players the Twins received from Toronto have made an appearance in the major leagues. Maybe some time in the future the Twins fans can make  judgments and perhaps the Twins wind up with a crazy favorable analysis, but as of now Toronto has the MLB athlete.

[bean5302]

10 hours ago, rwilfong86 said:

It's too soon to call it a win/loss for either team, but as I said in a previous post, I'm glad the Twins dealt him rather than give him a huge contract. When he has been good this year he has been good but when he is off it's been painful to watch, and yesterday's game is an example of that. I read some articles going into the season where several people considered Berríos a dark horse Cy Young candidate. I hope he can turn it around this year because I really want to see the Blue Jays pass the Yankees in the East. 

The Twins weren't even remotely close to the ballpark when it came to the offer the Blue Jays made so the extension was never going to happen, and quite frankly, the Twins didn't need to give Berrios an extension because he wasn't a pending free agent at the end of the season anyway. They could have kept him and traded him during the offseason or kept him on the final year of his arbitration as Berrios was still under team control through the end of this year. 

I'm happy with the trade the Twins made, but the smugness about how well the Twins made out doesn't feel warranted, partially because the scenario you are concerned about wasn't relevant (Twins extending Berrios at Blue Jays contract level).

[rwilfong86]

2 minutes ago, bean5302 said:

The Twins weren't even remotely close to the ballpark when it came to the offer the Blue Jays made so the extension was never going to happen, and quite frankly, the Twins didn't need to give Berrios an extension because he wasn't a pending free agent at the end of the season anyway. They could have kept him and traded him during the offseason or kept him on the final year of his arbitration as Berrios was still under team control through the end of this year. 

I'm happy with the trade the Twins made, but the smugness about how well the Twins made out doesn't feel warranted, partially because the scenario you are concerned about wasn't relevant (Twins extending Berrios at Blue Jays contract level).

Having a player who we knew didn't want to be around any longer than he had to be isn't a great contributer to team chemistry. Isn't it amazing how much better the team played following the trade deadline? Coincidence? I believe not. 

Thankfully I'm entitled to my opinion and can post what I want ? 

[Squirrel]

I've said this in other threads ... I don't really care how well or poorly Berrios pitches (I mean, I don't wish the guy ill, I just don't care because he's on another team now). At the time of the trade, it was the right move to make. I think we got good pieces, fair pieces. Even if they don't turn out to be much, it was still the right trade to make at the time. For me it was a win-win right then and there, regardless of how anyone does into the future.

[rwilfong86]

8 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

I've said this in other threads ... I don't really care how well or poorly Berrios pitches (I mean, I don't wish the guy ill, I just don't care because he's on another team now). At the time of the trade, it was the right move to make. I think we got good pieces, fair pieces. Even if they don't turn out to be much, it was still the right trade to make at the time. For me it was a win-win right then and there, regardless of how anyone does into the future.

Agreed. I wish him the best, unless he pitches against the Twins. 

[bunsen82]

On 5/29/2022 at 8:40 PM, bean5302 said:

Oh really? Have you looked at the centerpiece of the trade recently?

Austin Martin .258/.377/.333 = .710 with 11 errors in 24 games started repeating AA.

Woods-Richardson, last 4 games = 6.30 ERA, again, repeating AA.

Both sides have seen player stocks tumble.

Dang your a tough critic especially off of small sample sizes. SWR is probably viewed much higher after the early season, 3.02 ERA. He is showing better control and has a chance at a call up mid season to AAA.  He is doing really well and much better than struggling at AA with Toronto last year. 

Now let’s look at Martin who has flirted with an OBP near .400 for most of the year and has nearly 20 steals so far.  No offense but that is a big league player. Now the question is to to where.  Honestly I give Martin the rest of the year at shortstop to see if he can start to clean up his defense. You can move him to outfield or utility at any point.  To me both have done more than enough to maintain their prospect status and SWR has actually probably improved a spot or two,  

The twins did well the trade, Berrios wanted more money and out of the Twins system.  I said it in another thread.  With 2 trades we have  2 years of Gray, SWR and Martin and traded away 1 year and 2 months of Berrios and Petty (who has a 4ERA in A ball last I checked).  Incrementally the twins got better in those two trades.   We got an extra year Gray, SWR and Petty are similar and we essentially got Martin as throw in.  Add in money for an extension was likely used on Correa and we are in great shape.  

[MABB1959]

He has a good work ethic, stays healthy and has given the Blue Jays almost 50 innings.  It is too early to tell but I would have him on my roster any day of the week.  

[nicksaviking]

On 5/30/2022 at 4:55 PM, bean5302 said:

I'm happy with the trade the Twins made, but the smugness about how well the Twins made out doesn't feel warranted, partially because the scenario you are concerned about wasn't relevant (Twins extending Berrios at Blue Jays contract level).

Tone it down please. There was absolutely nothing "smug" about the title or original post in this thread. You can disagree with a take without being demeaning and indignant.

[Irishman]

On 5/30/2022 at 12:18 AM, Tim said:

Ya really.

Like what exactly is the point your even trying to make against this take right now.

Twins scouting department must be terrible.  

[Major League Ready]

On 6/1/2022 at 7:16 AM, MABB1959 said:

He has a good work ethic, stays healthy and has given the Blue Jays almost 50 innings.  It is too early to tell but I would have him on my roster any day of the week.  

He has given up 20 runs in his last 26 IP.  His ERA is now over 5.  The FO would be getting absolutely slammed here had we traded SWR and Martin for a pitcher performing this way.

[MABB1959]

34 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

He has given up 20 runs in his last 26 IP.  His ERA is now over 5.  The FO would be getting absolutely slammed here had we traded SWR and Martin for a pitcher performing this way.

Who is SWR and Martin?  More prospects?  

[bunsen82]

36 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

He has given up 20 runs in his last 26 IP.  His ERA is now over 5.  The FO would be getting absolutely slammed here had we traded SWR and Martin for a pitcher performing this way.

On top of that also gave that pitcher a 7 year 130 million extension.   I think Berrios will improve,  but there are 2 issues,  one is his stuff even last year was beginning to regress.   His whiff percentage last year declined from 2020,  and this year is even worse.  2. Some of it is due to better competition on a more regular basis,  but he is losing some control.  Likely his fastball is probably needing more effort to keep it at the current velocity which is causing more accuracy issues.   It is more down in the zone than previously leading to more hard hit percentage.   

[Squirrel]

12 minutes ago, MABB1959 said:

Who is SWR and Martin?  More prospects?  

Martin is the #2 prospect in our system; SWR is our #5 prospect. 
https://twinsdaily.com/minnesota-twins-top-prospects-rankings/2022/

[Major League Ready]

19 minutes ago, MABB1959 said:

Who is SWR and Martin?  More prospects?  

Simeon Woods-Richardson and Austin Martin.  The two players we got for Berrios so the point was basically reversing the trade but making it any player performing at the level Berrios is right now.  We all love Berrios so making it generic remove the bias we might have for Berrios.

[bunsen82]

9 minutes ago, MABB1959 said:

Who is SWR and Martin?  More prospects?  

2 prospects both in AA

Simeon Woods Richardson is a 21 year old pitcher who has been fast tracked to AA.   After last night his ERA is down to 2.93.  He is 3.5 years younger than the average player in AA.  He had generally been known as a control pitcher with 4 good pitches working on a fifth,  sitting at 93 mph on fastball up to 95.  The month before traded to the Twins and in AA his control failed him.  His ERA was 5- 6 in the Blue Jays system.  Essentially I think they were willing to give up on him.  I haven't heard if his velocity has increased since coming over but he is back on track to being a #2 to #3 pitcher.   

Austin Martin is an OF/SS prospect.  Primarily played OF for Blue Jays.  He is a Top 50-100 prospect in all of Baseball.  His Bat is one of the best in the minors,  His OBP regularly hovers around .400.  Actually he has been struggling a bit with the bat,  but still getting plenty of walks and still sitting at .380 OBP.  His defense at short is currently rough.  However, if the Twins can help him clean that up his prospect status goes up even more, but honestly the Twins do not need that.  Ultimately he becomes a super utility in the Arreaz mold or an elite defensive outfielder.  His bat can play in the majors now.   Did I mention he has nearly 20 steals this year.   He is a very good player.