What is your definition of an 'ace'?

[Schmoeman5]

6 hours ago, Trov said:

I did not start the post for anything about Berrios, it was trying to see what people think an 'ace' is.  I have seen many people say the Twins need one to compete in the playoffs, and I wanted to get a definition to hammer down if we have one, or where we could get one.  

So far by most definitions, Berrios would not fall into the category anyways, so if we still did have him, we would still need to get an 'ace' by most commenters. I am also trying to compare the definitions to see how often WS winning teams have one or not.  By most definitions presented, Atlanta last year did not have one either.  

I think most agree, better pitching will make it more likely you will win, but I keep reading we need an 'ace' and that we do not have one.  So lets define what one is.  Sadly, most of the definitions I am getting does not really define it any better, but things like, you feel you they will win when they pitch, or will stop losing streaks.  Some require this over periods of time, and some gave actual numbers. 

French Fried sure pitched like an ace tho didn't he? LA had 2 the year before. Houston had 2 definite aces with Cole and Verlander and they had Greinke a solid #1 for years as their #3 or 4. Scherzer with Washington. He came out of the pen too. So don't make it sound like all the past WS winners didn't have aces. You cherry picked Atlanta. Giants had Lincecum and Cain 2010 and 2012 with Mad Bum as their 3rd starter. By 2014 he was an ace. KC lights out bullpen in 2015 was the only other one in recent memory that didn't have one. How good would the Twins be if they could say Ryan was their #3

[TheLeviathan]

1 hour ago, Schmoeman5 said:

French Fried sure pitched like an ace tho didn't he? LA had 2 the year before. Houston had 2 definite aces with Cole and Verlander and they had Greinke a solid #1 for years as their #3 or 4. Scherzer with Washington. He came out of the pen too. So don't make it sound like all the past WS winners didn't have aces. You cherry picked Atlanta. Giants had Lincecum and Cain 2010 and 2012 with Mad Bum as their 3rd starter. By 2014 he was an ace. KC lights out bullpen in 2015 was the only other one in recent memory that didn't have one. How good would the Twins be if they could say Ryan was their #3

Just to point this out, having someone we decide is an ace doesn't mean they pitched like one on a WS winner.  Kershaw, for example, is the best pitcher of his generation and has a decidedly mediocre playoff record.  He performed well in 2020, but in every other year he had been pretty lousy.  Verlander had an ERA approaching 6 in the WS win over the Nationals.  Lincecum was only a starter in 2010.

So sometimes it's worth digging a little deeper past the surface on these things.  I wouldn't quibble with calling any of the names you mentioned "Aces" (though I find the term mostly a recipe for silliness)....but we often brush over looking at the actual results.  We just see the name and assume they performed.  That is frequently not the case.

[Schmoeman5]

3 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

Just to point this out, having someone we decide is an ace doesn't mean they pitched like one on a WS winner.  Kershaw, for example, is the best pitcher of his generation and has a decidedly mediocre playoff record.  He performed well in 2020, but in every other year he had been pretty lousy.  Verlander had an ERA approaching 6 in the WS win over the Nationals.  Lincecum was only a starter in 2010.

So sometimes it's worth digging a little deeper past the surface on these things.  I wouldn't quibble with calling any of the names you mentioned "Aces" (though I find the term mostly a recipe for silliness)....but we often brush over looking at the actual results.  We just see the name and assume they performed.  That is frequently not the case.

The discussion wasn't about what they did in WS play. It's about getting through 162 games plus the playoffs. Hell Glavine Smoltz and Maddux came up short in WS play 4 or 5 times. But the Braves don't get there without them. Same for Scherzer and Verlander in Detroit. Sometimes aces do come up short in big games. But that's irrelevant to the topic. If the topic was does having an ace guarantee you a WS Championship I'd agree with you 100%

[TheLeviathan]

12 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

The discussion wasn't about what they did in WS play. It's about getting through 162 games plus the playoffs. Hell Glavine Smoltz and Maddux came up short in WS play 4 or 5 times. But the Braves don't get there without them. Same for Scherzer and Verlander in Detroit. Sometimes aces do come up short in big games. But that's irrelevant to the topic. If the topic was does having an ace guarantee you a WS Championship I'd agree with you 100%

I agree great pitching helps get you there over 162.  I took that back and forth as being more about WS wins with the teams you guys were discussing specifically.  

I tend to lean towards good depth over elite, but no doubt they both help.

[Trov]

On 5/27/2022 at 3:40 PM, terrydactyls said:

I am not 100% certain but I think when Maddox was early into his MLB career, the radar gun was either a sundial or a hand-held stop watch. ??  In either case I don't think they were very accurate.  But regardless of that, Maddox was a pleasure to watch.  As were Warren Spahn and White Ford, both of whom I would call op of the rotation.  But ACE?????  I don't know.

That is a pretty high bar for 'ace' if a HOF pitchers are not considered 'ace'.

[Trov]

On 5/27/2022 at 4:09 PM, Schmoeman5 said:

French Fried sure pitched like an ace tho didn't he? LA had 2 the year before. Houston had 2 definite aces with Cole and Verlander and they had Greinke a solid #1 for years as their #3 or 4. Scherzer with Washington. He came out of the pen too. So don't make it sound like all the past WS winners didn't have aces. You cherry picked Atlanta. Giants had Lincecum and Cain 2010 and 2012 with Mad Bum as their 3rd starter. By 2014 he was an ace. KC lights out bullpen in 2015 was the only other one in recent memory that didn't have one. How good would the Twins be if they could say Ryan was their #3

First, saying a guy pitched like an 'ace' during the playoffs is not saying they are an 'ace'.  Any guy can step up and pitch like an 'ace' in hindsight.  Yes, having top pitching can certainly help.  However, it is not required to have an 'ace'.  Many times guys step up to be the top pitcher in the playoffs, and the top guys actually have bad starts too.  Again this post was about defining an 'ace' to see if one is even out there. 

Of course if Ryan is our third best pitcher that would be better for our team.  Who would argue against that? Who do you suggest they go out to get to be the 'ace'?  That is part of the point of this forum. 

[Karbo]

I say an Ace is the guy that is the stopper, the Horse, the guy you just feel no matter who the other team is He's going to shut them down. 4 out of every 5 quality starts. ERA in the low 3 or lower. The guy that will argue with his manager when his manager wants to take him out. Not very many of those guys around in this day and age, and the few there are are getting older and very well paid.

[Bigfork Twins Guy]

On 5/24/2022 at 4:03 PM, bean5302 said:

Some pitchers succeed through precision. Placing balls in perfect locations. Those types of pitchers can have some success for a period, but often get hammered if a pitch isn't working well that day or they don't have precise control one day.

I disagree with this. I consider Greg Maddox an ace. He did not have velo but great control. Ace’s get results and may or may not have nasty stuff.

[bean5302]

1 hour ago, Bigfork Twins Guy said:

I disagree with this. I consider Greg Maddox an ace. He did not have velo but great control. Ace’s get results and may or may not have nasty stuff.

Greg Maddux had great stuff, great delivery deception and impeccable control.

It's such a huge disservice to Maddux to insinuate he did everything on precision and ball placement. He touched mid 90s with his fastball early in his career during a different era of velocity and the guy had 190+ strikeouts in 5 seasons, hovering around 7K/9 during his peak, even hitting nearly 8K/9 in 1995.

Maddux threw strikes, the batters knew the pitches were all going to be strikes and batters still missed his pitches in the zone. You need movement or big velocity changes to make that happen. MLB hitters cover the strike zone pretty well so you need more than just placement to be one of the greatest pitchers in MLB history.

[Game7-91]

5 hours ago, Karbo said:

I say an Ace is the guy that is the stopper, the Horse, the guy you just feel no matter who the other team is He's going to shut them down. 4 out of every 5 quality starts. ERA in the low 3 or lower. The guy that will argue with his manager when his manager wants to take him out. Not very many of those guys around in this day and age, and the few there are are getting older and very well paid.

This.

And, the guy who going to start game 7 no matter the rotation sequence.

[RickOShea]

On 5/27/2022 at 1:40 PM, terrydactyls said:

I am not 100% certain but I think when Maddox was early into his MLB career, the radar gun was either a sundial or a hand-held stop watch. ??  In either case I don't think they were very accurate.  But regardless of that, Maddox was a pleasure to watch.  As were Warren Spahn and White Ford, both of whom I would call op of the rotation.  But ACE?????  I don't know.

 

On 5/27/2022 at 1:40 PM, terrydactyls said:

I am not 100% certain but I think when Maddox was early into his MLB career, the radar gun was either a sundial or a hand-held stop watch. ??  In either case I don't think they were very accurate.  But regardless of that, Maddox was a pleasure to watch.  As were Warren Spahn and White Ford, both of whom I would call op of the rotation.  But ACE?????  I don't know.

I', not sure. but in my mind, when I think of Aces, I think of Bob Gibson, Juan Marichal, Ferguson Jenkins, etc.  An Ace to me, was the kind of pitcher who was going to win most of the time, and dominate most of the pitcher/hitter match-ups.  An Ace was described as someone who could show you something special every time they took the mound, i.e. shutout, big strikeout total, no-hitter, etc.

[Ryan_K]

Ace =5 WAR or 3.00 era and 200 innings pitched or 25 Quality Starts QS

Number 1= 4 WAR or 3.5 era and 200 innings pitched or 20 QS

Number 2 = 3 WAR or 3.8 and 180 innings pitched or 16 QS

Looking at Fangraphs for last season only 29 pitchers would be in one of these top three categories