Miller: Pitch Clocks.. Speed up game, but Players hate it

[Blyleven2011]

10 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

No.  It factually speeds up games and there is evidence to that.

 

Some changes  do some changes don't  , heres one that won't  speed the game up in national league,,,,,

Adding the dh to the national league  , now I don't care they added the dh but I will miss some good pitchers that could hit , for example  Noah syndergaard  pitched a shut out a couple of years back and hit a solo homerun ,,,, he won it with his arm and his bat  1-0 ,,,,  baseball to the purist ...

Another one is , the replays that doesn't save time .... 

People have mentioned  less commercials , you take away commercial time and TV contracts won't be as big ...

Some do save time , 3 batter limits on relief pitching , less mound visits faking a throw to third and throwing to first,  intentional walks  ,,,, and a few more I'm sure  ,, 

Maybe the mlb should buy the big hand from jackass and have it  slapping the batter for stepping out of the box 

only sport  that isn't on a time clock and doesn't need to be ,  it's up to home umpire or crew chief to implement quick play , there are rules already in place for this ,,,,

Just tell the players the game is to be played by the rules  or you suffer the consequences of the rules ....

If it takes 3 hours to get to the seventh inning  liquor cutoff  ,,, you should have had your fill by then , time to go home and listen to the final innings on the car radio 

[TheLeviathan]

32 minutes ago, Blyleven2011 said:

Some changes  do some changes don't  , heres one that won't  speed the game up in national league,,,,,

it shortened games by an average of 24 minutes.  This is simply a fact, there is no speculation.

[Greglw3]

Byron Buxton is Mike Hargrove? Jorge Polanco is Mike Hargrove? Gio Urshela is Mike Hargrove? Carlos Correa is Mike Hargrove? Gary Sanchez? Nick Gordon? Max Kepler

You said EVERYONE is Mike Hargrove but I just named 7 Twins who don’t come even close to Mike Hargrove in an intricate ritualistic extreme type of delay on every pitch,

[Major League Ready]

On 5/21/2022 at 1:57 PM, Brock Beauchamp said:

The current rule is toothless. It has all these (stupid) stipulations and doesn't actually start until the pitcher is in position on the mound, then it begins a 20 second countdown. It wouldn't have an actual impact on the current game for anyone except the absolute slowest of pitchers.

The new rule is much stricter and exact, as it should be.

Thank you.  Yes, the rule exists.  However, instead of blindly suggesting the current rule should be enforced shouldn't we examine why it doesn't work?  Not only are there stipulations that impede enforcement, the proposed rule is very different than the existing rule of 12 seconds.  The rule implemented in the minors not only allows 14 seconds and an additional 5 seconds when a runner is on base.  The suggestion they should just enforce the existing rule is rather knee jerk with little thought regarding the current failure or future success.   

[Brock Beauchamp]

10 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

That is a job solely for the powers of MLB. My best guess is some form of cooperation between players and umpires using the current rules/ guidelines to reduce game times without a buzzer and a large clock ticking down the seconds for every pitch.

This is what we have right now and have had for about 50 years now. An informal agreement that no one will enforce the pitch clock that sits in every MLB stadium because no one has to enforce it.

Which is literally the point of a "rule". We tried your way and it doesn't work, never has.

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 hours ago, Greglw3 said:

Byron Buxton is Mike Hargrove? Jorge Polanco is Mike Hargrove? Gio Urshela is Mike Hargrove? Carlos Correa is Mike Hargrove? Gary Sanchez? Nick Gordon? Max Kepler

You said EVERYONE is Mike Hargrove but I just named 7 Twins who don’t come even close to Mike Hargrove in an intricate ritualistic extreme type of delay on every pitch,

Actually, what I said was

Quote

First, you obviously haven't watched an old game in awhile if you think Mike Hargrove was some outlier in comparison to today's game.

And I'm the one who started this line of conversation. Levi was obviously being hyperbolic because Hargrove wouldn't stand out in today's game, as I showed with the Ortiz at-bat.

The reality is that today's game moves at the speed of Mike Hargrove, which is a real problem.

[Trov]

I am all for the pitch clock, or something that keeps the game moving.  I love the guys like Joe Ryan who get the ball and ready to throw it.  Mark Burhle was that way too.  His games were so fast because he did not take forever between pitches when no one was on base.  

The strict pitch clock may not be the perfect way to do it, but it is not just the length of the game, but the long time between pitches.  This is not just on the pitcher but the hitter to.  He will take a ton of time sometimes.  As players start to get used to it, they will adjust.  Keep the action going is what I say. 

[TheLeviathan]

4 hours ago, Greglw3 said:

Byron Buxton is Mike Hargrove? Jorge Polanco is Mike Hargrove? Gio Urshela is Mike Hargrove? Carlos Correa is Mike Hargrove? Gary Sanchez? Nick Gordon? Max Kepler

You said EVERYONE is Mike Hargrove but I just named 7 Twins who don’t come even close to Mike Hargrove in an intricate ritualistic extreme type of delay on every pitch,

It isn't just batters.  Pitchers are doing the Mike Hargrove too.  Are some players faster?  Of course.  Are the majority of players meandering ala Hargrove?  Yes.  You just don't notice because it is so pervasive it doesn't stand out.

[Blyleven2011]

13 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

it shortened games by an average of 24 minutes.  This is simply a fact, there is no speculation.

Okay the speed clock shortens the game , I got that .....

Some rule changes don't however speed the game up  but some do  ...

Is it really going to make the game more exciting  ,,, the main objective is to hit a round ball with a round bat ...

[Brock Beauchamp]

8 minutes ago, Blyleven2011 said:

Okay the speed clock shortens the game , I got that .....

Some rule changes don't however speed the game up  but some do  ...

Is it really going to make the game more exciting  ,,, the main objective is to hit a round ball with a round bat ...

It will make the game more exciting through the reduction of down time, especially with empty bases, which is the most uninteresting aspect of the game because literally nothing is happening.

[Trov]

12 minutes ago, Blyleven2011 said:

Okay the speed clock shortens the game , I got that .....

Some rule changes don't however speed the game up  but some do  ...

Is it really going to make the game more exciting  ,,, the main objective is to hit a round ball with a round bat ...

It will make game more exciting because as the time between pitches get reduced more action is happening.  Will it mean more pitches in play, no it will not, but we will not see a pitcher without anyone on stand there for 30 second plus shaking off the catcher, or the hitter walking around muttering to himself.  It will get ball, get the sign and pitch.  

Then when on base you will not see endless no competitive throws over to the base or stepping off to look at the runner, or the spin around to the guy on second without a throw.  The stepping off and asking to go through signs again because you cannot remember what the pitch is, or just you want to throw something different. Also, I think it will lead to more action on the bases, I could be wrong, but after two throws over, if you try a third you need to get the out or it is a balk.  So I could see some cat and mouse games using the clock to try and get the runner going a second early, or something like that. 

Overall, cutting down the length of the game will keep people more engaged in the game.  Cutting down 24 min simply because of imposing a clock is a good amount of time that people are watching nothing happen. 

[wsnydes]

1 hour ago, Blyleven2011 said:

Okay the speed clock shortens the game , I got that .....

Some rule changes don't however speed the game up  but some do  ...

Is it really going to make the game more exciting  ,,, the main objective is to hit a round ball with a round bat ...

Is basketball more exciting because of the shot clock?  Would you prefer that a team just dribble around for 5 minutes and not put up a single shot?  The objective is still the same either way.

Is football more exciting because of a play clock?  Would you prefer that the offensive team just sit in the huddle for 2 minutes and not snap the ball? The objective is still the same either way.

Having to endure an extra 10 to 20 seconds between something that happens 200 to 300 times per game has a cumulative effect.  And it's completely unnecessary.  

[wsnydes]

14 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

it shortened games by an average of 24 minutes.  This is simply a fact, there is no speculation.

Funny thing is that this is literally the difference between me being able to get Dairy Queen after a game or not.  I usually miss closing time by 15 to 20 minutes.  It's frustrating, to say the least.

[Squirrel]

Just now, wsnydes said:

Funny thing is that this is literally the difference between me be able to get Dairy Queen after a game or not.  I usually miss closing time by 15 to 20 minutes.  It's frustrating, to say the least.

Damn it ... now I want a blizzard and no DQ nearby!

[wsnydes]

1 minute ago, Squirrel said:

Damn it ... now I want a blizzard and no DQ nearby!

Sounds like a road trip is in your future!

[nicksaviking]

The games have been getting longer for decades, but I'll bet if anyone was able to find the data, the most jarring slowdown occurred in the mid 1990's when ESPN had the brilliant idea of informing America that everyone was required to either be a Red Sox fan or a Yankee fan and then proceeded to show Red Sox/Yankee games every chance they got. 

I don't remember the proliferation of preening, mugging and stalling for more camera time from the players until right about that moment. So, while that kind of baseball is likely all the players today have ever known, it's still obviously doable to cut that crap out of the game.

[Mike Sixel]

I mean, it is a no brainer to do this, so I expect it not to happen for a very long time. 

Asking hard core fans what they love about MLB isn't going to get a result that gets more people in the stands, or eyes on the tv (when you can actually watch a game). 

[ashbury]

29 minutes ago, wsnydes said:

Funny thing is that this is literally the difference between me be able to get Dairy Queen after a game or not.  I usually miss closing time by 15 to 20 minutes.  It's frustrating, to say the least.

We all have our metrics.

[Brock Beauchamp]

45 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

The games have been getting longer for decades, but I'll bet if anyone was able to find the data, the most jarring slowdown occurred in the mid 1990's when ESPN had the brilliant idea of informing America that everyone was required to either be a Red Sox fan or a Yankee fan and then proceeded to show Red Sox/Yankee games every chance they got. 

I don't remember the proliferation of preening, mugging and stalling for more camera time from the players until right about that moment. So, while that kind of baseball is likely all the players today have ever known, it's still obviously doable to cut that crap out of the game.

Yep, that's when I noticed the game start to really slow down, as both the Yankees and Red Sox tended to take a lot of pitches and they all stepped out between pitches to fix their obviously-malfunctioning batting gloves.

Why the teams never invested in higher-quality batting gloves baffles me to this day.

[TheLeviathan]

1 hour ago, Blyleven2011 said:

Okay the speed clock shortens the game , I got that .....

Some rule changes don't however speed the game up  but some do  ...

Is it really going to make the game more exciting  ,,, the main objective is to hit a round ball with a round bat ...

Whatever exciting stuff happens in baseball will now happen more closely together.  How is that anything but a good thing?  

A movie might have a super exciting part....but do I want to sit through 5 hours of nothing to see it?  No.  And that's why Zack Snyder sucks at his job and baseball is no fun for kids.

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, TheLeviathan said:

Whatever exciting stuff happens in baseball will now happen more closely together.  How is that anything but a good thing?  

A movie might have a super exciting part....but do I want to sit through 5 hours of nothing to see it?  No.  And that's why Zack Snyder sucks at his job and baseball is no fun for kids.

That Snyder rip is great, btw. 

[tony&rodney]

13 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

This is what we have right now and have had for about 50 years now. An informal agreement that no one will enforce the pitch clock that sits in every MLB stadium because no one has to enforce it.

Which is literally the point of a "rule". We tried your way and it doesn't work, never has.

You are not wrong but a clock that is not enforced also changes nothing. True?

It is one thing for Manfred to screw around with the minors, but another to get movement in the majors.

Most of us can agree what is just stepping out and focusing or taking a 5 second break behind the mound versus the 35+ seconds that are not uncommon due to some combination of batters/ pitchers delay.

I'm watching Pagan pitch and he is pretty deliberate and Schoop/Cabrera do step out, but the ball gets delivered in 12-16 seconds. Some of the younger guys are less than 10 seconds. Those guys who drag out at bats, either pitcher or batter need a little push.

[Brock Beauchamp]

11 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

You are not wrong but a clock that is not enforced also changes nothing. True?

It is one thing for Manfred to screw around with the minors, but another to get movement in the majors.

Most of us can agree what is just stepping out and focusing or taking a 5 second break behind the mound versus the 35+ seconds that are not uncommon due to some combination of batters/ pitchers delay.

I'm watching Pagan pitch and he is pretty deliberate and Schoop/Cabrera do step out, but the ball gets delivered in 12-16 seconds. Some of the younger guys are less than 10 seconds. Those guys who drag out at bats, either pitcher or batter need a little push.

There's actually a history to the clock, though, and a lot of it involves umpires simply refusing to enforce the clock because there was no convenient mechanism for them to do so. Without giving umpires a hard, consistent line from which to declare a ball or strike, they're going to keep doing what they're doing right now: nothing.

I highly encourage everyone to listen to the Effectively Wild podcast, particularly the recent episode on the pitch clock. They do a pretty deep dive on why the current rules aren't enforced because it's a pretty lousy rule without good framework around it.

https://blogs.fangraphs.com/effectively-wild-episode-1848-shantz-encounter/

[Craig Arko]

If it enables ditching the ‘free runner on second base’ rule for at least the 10th inning, sign me up.

[Greglw3]

On 5/23/2022 at 10:21 AM, TheLeviathan said:

It isn't just batters.  Pitchers are doing the Mike Hargrove too.  Are some players faster?  Of course.  Are the majority of players meandering ala Hargrove?  Yes.  You just don't notice because it is so pervasive it doesn't stand out.

With respect, I don’t think you saw Mike Hargrove play regularly enough to realize the extent and extreme of his ritual between every pitch. I lived in Ohio at the time and my brother was a Guardians fan so had heavy exposure to it. The YouTube videos have enough cutting to underrepresent the Human Rain Delay.

I would submit that from 1970-2022, he is the slowest batter by far over the course of the game and that there is no one that I know of in MLB now that comes close. Maybe send in an e-mail to current Cleveland TV broadcaster, Rick Manning, to see if he agrees. Hargrove stands and stands and fiddles and stands alone.

Obviously this is my opinion but when my brother and I think of someone that slows the game, we always come back to Hargrove and his hideously long delay between every pitch.

I’ll admit that a select few pitchers may approach Hargroves delay tactics - they are usually less talented and throws lots and lots of balls.

[TheLeviathan]

18 minutes ago, Greglw3 said:

With respect, I don’t think you saw Mike Hargrove play regularly enough to realize the extent and extreme of his ritual between every pitch. I lived in Ohio at the time and my brother was a Guardians fan so had heavy exposure to it. The YouTube videos have enough cutting to underrepresent the Human Rain Delay.

I would submit that from 1970-2022, he is the slowest batter by far over the course of the game and that there is no one that I know of in MLB now that comes close. Maybe send in an e-mail to current Cleveland TV broadcaster, Rick Manning, to see if he agrees. Hargrove stands and stands and fiddles and stands alone.

Obviously this is my opinion but when my brother and I think of someone that slows the game, we always come back to Hargrove and his hideously long delay between every pitch.

I’ll admit that a select few pitchers may approach Hargroves delay tactics - they are usually less talented and throws lots and lots of balls.

With respect, your own flawed memory free of context is not the same as evidence.  There are mountains of evidence versus your flawed anecdote.

 

[laloesch]

On 5/21/2022 at 10:00 AM, mnfireman said:

Or they could just enforce a rule already in place:

Rule 8.04: “When the bases are unoccupied, the pitcher shall deliver the ball to the batter within 12 seconds after he receives the ball. Each time the pitcher delays the game by violating this rule, the umpire shall call ‘Ball.'”

Agreed.

[laloesch]

On 5/22/2022 at 4:03 AM, bean5302 said:

Time between pitches has increased. That data has been tracked. There are about 300 pitches per game. Every 1 second pitches are made slower = 5 minutes of game time. The pitch clock at 18 seconds cutting game time by 24 minutes means the average pitch time was 23 seconds or so which falls right in line with expectations.

Speaking as somebody who has a season ticket package and likes to share one of my seats with a friend, I and my friends like to get home before midnight. I was at the extra inning game against the Guardians last week. It was already too long of a game before the extra innings. 10 inning game and the final timer? 3 hours and 31 minutes. Final score? 3-2. That's absurd. Thankfully, the 7:10pm start time games are few and far between these days and the 14ths game started at 6:10pm I believe. Being at the park until 11pm or later gets real old.

Side note, I don't think the TV time outs are an issue. The players don't spend a lot of time tossing balls in the outfield by the time they get into their positions so shrinking down the break is pretty limited.

I also don't care what the players like in regard to the pitch clock. 18 seconds is generous. I would like to feel the pace at the game when the change is implemented. Going to 15 seconds should be easy... but I don't want the game to feel rushed, either.

Commercials are what REALLY drag the games out. 

[bean5302]

2 hours ago, laloesch said:

Commercials are what REALLY drag the games out. 

I suspect you likely never attend games in person. Commercials air during the time between inning breaks like during the 7th inning stretch, during replays etc. I've attended hundreds of MLB games and I can promise players don't magically teleport off the bases and into their fielding positions with glove in hand after the final out. A player standing on base who having to run across the field after the final out, grab their glove and exchange their helmet for a hat, then jog back to the opposite outfield takes a couple minutes. Sometimes kids run the gear part way, but not always. The amount of time players spent tossing the balls around to each other is very limited before play begins and that short toss warm up time is really the only time commercials can potentially impact. By my estimate as a regular MLB game attendee (not just Twins games) maybe 10/15 minutes a game could be saved if every last bit of short toss commercial time was cut? Of course, that cut would also negatively impact the fan experience at the games because those are typical bathroom and concession break times so cutting commercial breaks could even have a net negative impact.

As a side note, MLB already moved to cut commercial breaks in 2018-2021. From 2:05 to 2:00 for local games. 2:25 to 2:00 in national games and I think from 2:55 to 2:25 in playoff games. Ever watched the Race at Target Field and notice the race distance got shorter? Runners used to have a longer distance to run. There's not much filler room in there anymore...

[laloesch]

On 5/25/2022 at 8:16 PM, bean5302 said:

I suspect you likely never attend games in person. Commercials air during the time between inning breaks like during the 7th inning stretch, during replays etc. I've attended hundreds of MLB games and I can promise players don't magically teleport off the bases and into their fielding positions with glove in hand after the final out. A player standing on base who having to run across the field after the final out, grab their glove and exchange their helmet for a hat, then jog back to the opposite outfield takes a couple minutes. Sometimes kids run the gear part way, but not always. The amount of time players spent tossing the balls around to each other is very limited before play begins and that short toss warm up time is really the only time commercials can potentially impact. By my estimate as a regular MLB game attendee (not just Twins games) maybe 10/15 minutes a game could be saved if every last bit of short toss commercial time was cut? Of course, that cut would also negatively impact the fan experience at the games because those are typical bathroom and concession break times so cutting commercial breaks could even have a net negative impact.

As a side note, MLB already moved to cut commercial breaks in 2018-2021. From 2:05 to 2:00 for local games. 2:25 to 2:00 in national games and I think from 2:55 to 2:25 in playoff games. Ever watched the Race at Target Field and notice the race distance got shorter? Runners used to have a longer distance to run. There's not much filler room in there anymore...

Actually i do attend games and Commercials do drag out the games.  You do not have a monopoly on this discussion so please don't lecture me on what you think you know about my "attendance" of games.  Sorry to be blunt but IT IS TRUE that commercials drag out the game.  Removing one 20-second ad per commercial break shortens a nine inning game by a whopping five minutes and 40 seconds.  This may not seem like much to you but when you consider how many ads and commercials play throughout a game it adds up very quickly.  And yes i am aware that Commercials air between innings, during replays, etc.  They also sometimes air sometimes between pitching changes too.  You underestimate how much time is consumed by commercials.  It is also up to the fan when to take bathroom and concession breaks, historically that is between innings or the 7th.  Cutting commercials would not be negative it would be positive.  The average baseball game is still over 3 hours (which is ridiculous) when as recently as the early 80's it was 2 hours 30 minutes.