Despite Great First Impression, Royce Lewis Optioned to St. Paul After Tuesday's Game

[nicksaviking]

5 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Yep... Gordon is that guy that someone might claim so you hang on to him in the name of the depth

And also that guy who isn't producing enough to take AB's away from others. 

I would be happy for Gordon when he does get claimed, and hopefully by a non-contender that can give him ABs.

But his skill set, even if he hit his ceiling, is just so underwhelming. It would cost the team a league minimum salary to replace him if they needed to. But they don't need to because they have so many options for bench bats at the moment. Heck, forget about Lewis, I'd set Gordon free Spencer Steer this very second.

And to be clear, I'm not intentionally trying to slight Gordon, I've enjoyed watching him climb the system. I just think it's time to let go.

Also, I'm only arguing Lewis for Gordon's roster spot. I'd be arguing Lewis for Urshela's spot in the lineup.

[baul0010]

4 hours ago, Dman said:

I think this is the largest head scratcher the FO has made IMO.  So they are saying the guy that has more raw physical ability on this team than any player not named Byron Buxton.  The Guy who is hitting as one of the top bats on the team and that is the guy you decide to send down?  That is the guy there is no room for?  I guess just throw all reasonable logic out the window then.  Might as well send more than half the team down then.

So the FO is deciding that Urshela (no options left) who has been elite defensively at third cannot be moved.  With Larnach back he is the better option in Left field.  They still need Garlick (no options left) to mash Lefties.  They can't move Gordon (no options left) even though Lewis is the better version of the two.  And they don't want to waste Lewis playing 1st base so they are keeping Miranda up instead? Got it.

I get that sending Royce back to St Paul is far from the end of the world and won't harm his development or anything it is just that the main team, the MLB team needs a spark plug.  They need a difference maker and he is already becoming that.  So count me in the camp against this being a good move for the team.  Sending him down after homering for 1 of the teams 2 runs with a 300 BA and almost 900 OPS = Stupidity if you ask me but no one is probably asking me.

I still think the F.O. had no plans to contend this year.  They may have thought our pitching and prospects were 1/2 year to a year out.  Next year is never guaranteed, and the current roster is getting it done in a weak division.  Add some pitching, keep your best players on the roster, and try to win this year.

 

[LA VIkes Fan]

8 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Where are you playing Lewis if you option a bench player who rarely plays?

They aren't benching Urshela this little time into the acquisition, and he has a great glove.

You really think the FO didn't think this thru? 

I think we play Lewis 3 times a week at 3B (instead of Miranda/Urshela), 1-2 times a week in LF (instead of Gordon or Garlick), and once a week or so at SS to give Correa a DH day. You can add a DH day for Lewis. I really don't think this is that hard. 

I don't see Urshela as an everyday 3B even with his great glove. He had a .720 OPS last year and has a .610 OPS so far this year. He was better in 2019 and 2020, but 2019 is the year of the juiced baseball and 2020 is 150 ABs/174 PAs. The Yankees saw him as a high end utility player. I frankly think they're right. Now, the plan may be for Lewis to get some reps at 3B and LF in AAA and return to the Twins in 2 weeks when the roster composition changes. I don't like that plan but I would understand it. The idea of playing him for the rest of the year in AAA to get SS reps makes no sense to me. 

[Dman]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

I don't think it's a huge deal in the grand scheme. I think it sends a bad message, though. Not necessarily to players, but just in general. To me it feels like they had a plan and that's all there is to it. He was going to come up until Correa got back and he was going back. Didn't matter if he hit 1.000. 

 

Yeah I think you have the crux of the decision right there.  Just like Baldelli said about Buxton that once a decision was made they were not going to change it.  The plan was for Lewis to cover for Correa because they didn't really have anyone who was capable of doing it and once his time was up he was going back to St Paul.

There was no plan for if he did well, he was just there to cover SS for week or so.  I don't call the FO out on much simply because I don't have all the information they have.  However, this decision seems like such a baseball 101 move.  You don't send one of your best athletes and best hitters down to AAA when they have a hot hand.  You find ways to keep them up. 

I think it will take an injury or the trade deadline before we see him again because obviously the FO see's value in the players they are protecting. 

[Mike Sixel]

Just now, LA VIkes Fan said:

I think we play Lewis 3 times a week at 3B (instead of Miranda/Urshela), 1-2 times a week in LF (instead of Gordon or Garlick), and once a week or so at SS to give Correa a DH day. You can add a DH day for Lewis. I really don't think this is that hard. 

I don't see Urshela as an everyday 3B even with his great glove. He had a .720 OPS last year and has a .610 OPS so far this year. He was better in 2019 and 2020, but 2019 is the year of the juiced baseball and 2020 is 150 ABs/174 PAs. The Yankees saw him as a high end utility player. I frankly think they're right. Now, the plan may be for Lewis to get some reps at 3B and LF in AAA and return to the Twins in 2 weeks when the roster composition changes. I don't like that plan but I would understand it. The idea of playing him for the rest of the year in AAA to get SS reps makes no sense to me. 

I agree with all of this.....but I think a lot of the people saying this are the same people that says it sends a bad message to future free agents to mess with newly acquire guys (even though Gio was acquired in a trade).

I'd like to deal Arraez and Winder and Miranda to Oakland for Montas and a minor league player (maybe the TWins throw in another minor leaguer). That frees up space on the roster......I doubt Oakland does that though. But again, I'm dealing basically Twins' backup players (other than Winder), so not sure that frees up space for Lewis (it likely does if Larnach can play first and DH).

[chpettit19]

10 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Where are you playing Lewis if you option a bench player who rarely plays?

They aren't benching Urshela this little time into the acquisition, and he has a great glove.

You really think the FO didn't think this thru? 

I hope they aren't playing Urshela simply because they just traded for him a month and a half ago. If he isn't the better player (and it's hard to argue he is at this moment) then he shouldn't just automatically get to start because he was a recent acquisition. I'd bet his glove plays well at 1B, too. That'd give the Twins 4 guys who have started games at SS in the majors in their infield. That doesn't sound too bad.

I hope anyone suggesting the FO didn't think things through are exaggerating their stance. But it's fair to question what the front office is weighing. I think you may be correct and part of why they're playing Urshela is because they traded for him thinking he could be the everyday 3B. I also think it's fair to question how cautious they're being with Lewis playing other positions. I don't really get what alternate reason they have for sending him down since he's past any service time concerns (unless they don't plan to bring him back basically at all this year and then they should be fired). I spent all offseason predicting Lewis would thrive from basically the jump. I can't imagine the FO knew how he was looking after 2020 and his rehab leading into ST and had no idea he was basically ready for the bigs, but maybe they were surprised by his immediate success. 

To me this all feels like they had a plan for how the season would go, then for what they'd do if Correa got hurt, and they simply aren't willing to adjust on the fly. Their plan was for Lewis to be in AAA basically the whole year other than to fill in for any Correa IL stints. They planned for Urshela to be the everyday 3B. They planned and planned and now I think we're seeing an example of their inability to adjust quickly. I think it's a weakness of this FO/brain trust (I think Rocco is highly involved as well). They hold onto their plans too long (Colome closing, Happ and Shoemaker starting for examples). I think that's what we're seeing and I don't think "this was the plan" is a good enough reason to send down one of their current best players.

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, chpettit19 said:

I hope they aren't playing Urshela simply because they just traded for him a month and a half ago. If he isn't the better player (and it's hard to argue he is at this moment) then he shouldn't just automatically get to start because he was a recent acquisition. I'd bet his glove plays well at 1B, too. That'd give the Twins 4 guys who have started games at SS in the majors in their infield. That doesn't sound too bad.

I hope anyone suggesting the FO didn't think things through are exaggerating their stance. But it's fair to question what the front office is weighing. I think you may be correct and part of why they're playing Urshela is because they traded for him thinking he could be the everyday 3B. I also think it's fair to question how cautious they're being with Lewis playing other positions. I don't really get what alternate reason they have for sending him down since he's past any service time concerns (unless they don't plan to bring him back basically at all this year and then they should be fired). I spent all offseason predicting Lewis would thrive from basically the jump. I can't imagine the FO knew how he was looking after 2020 and his rehab leading into ST and had no idea he was basically ready for the bigs, but maybe they were surprised by his immediate success. 

To me this all feels like they had a plan for how the season would go, then for what they'd do if Correa got hurt, and they simply aren't willing to adjust on the fly. Their plan was for Lewis to be in AAA basically the whole year other than to fill in for any Correa IL stints. They planned for Urshela to be the everyday 3B. They planned and planned and now I think we're seeing an example of their inability to adjust quickly. I think it's a weakness of this FO/brain trust (I think Rocco is highly involved as well). They hold onto their plans too long (Colome closing, Happ and Shoemaker starting for examples). I think that's what we're seeing and I don't think "this was the plan" is a good enough reason to send down one of their current best players.

I think this is all fair, even though I disagree with nearly all of it. We don't know exactly why they made this decision, but you could be right.

[chpettit19]

Just now, Mike Sixel said:

I think this is all fair, even though I disagree with nearly all of it. We don't know exactly why they made this decision, but you could be right.

We certainly don't know. And I generally give them the benefit of the doubt cuz they have so much more info and know the bigger picture, but I don't follow the logic of sending down one of you top 4 players. For any reason. I just think you find a place to get your best players on the field.

[chpettit19]

7 minutes ago, Dman said:

Yeah I think you have the crux of the decision right there.  Just like Baldelli said about Buxton that once a decision was made they were not going to change it.  The plan was for Lewis to cover for Correa because they didn't really have anyone who was capable of doing it and once his time was up he was going back to St Paul.

There was no plan for if he did well, he was just there to cover SS for week or so.  I don't call the FO out on much simply because I don't have all the information they have.  However, this decision seems like such a baseball 101 move.  You don't send one of your best athletes and best hitters down to AAA when they have a hot hand.  You find ways to keep them up. 

I think it will take an injury or the trade deadline before we see him again because obviously the FO see's value in the players they are protecting. 

If it takes another injury or a trade to get him back up if he's still mashing in AAA I'm going to turn into one of the people who start calling for heads, and I really don't like being that kind of person for the exact reason you mention (they have more info, and frankly, are smarter than me). But if he continues to hit in AAA there is no reason not to have him replace Urshela or anyone else not hitting for the Twins. Play your best players. Especially since they're past the service time cutoff anyways. I just don't get any strategy now that isn't playing your best players as often as they can play.

[Steven Buhr]

17 minutes ago, baul0010 said:

I still think the F.O. had no plans to contend this year.  They may have thought our pitching and prospects were 1/2 year to a year out.  Next year is never guaranteed, and the current roster is getting it done in a weak division.  Add some pitching, keep your best players on the roster, and try to win this year.

 

I'm not buying this. If they had NO plans to contend, it made no sense at all to give Correa what they had to know... maybe even expect... to be a 1-year deal. They were planning on contending with the White Sox... maybe Cleveland.

It seems more likely, to me, that they're looking around and thinking, "We've had half the team on the IL and nobody has closed the gap on us. The rest of this division REALLY sucks! We can coast a little bit, make some deals at the deadline and make a run at things this year."

[rwilfong86]

11 hours ago, Mark G said:

One has to wonder if a small (maybe not so small?) part of this is to try to have the option of maintaining another year of control while waiting to see what Correa is going to do long term.  But if Miranda continues to struggle the way he has, they may switch gears and wait a year for Miranda and bring Lewis up again.  But if Miranda begins to hit, and Sano and Kirilloff stay on the IL, they may be grooming Miranda for long term 1st base use and that would mean Lewis staying east for a while longer.  I may be wrong, I was once,   but it appears to this extremely humble observer that it is going to be between Lewis and Miranda as to who stays the year and who is held back one more.  

Miranda should be sent down for sure, he is hitting a Sano-like .096 right now. Watching him struggle right now is painful. If Urshela wasn't playing such superb defense at 3rd I would guess he would be an option for 1st and Lewis plays 3rd. 

[rwilfong86]

33 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

I agree with all of this.....but I think a lot of the people saying this are the same people that says it sends a bad message to future free agents to mess with newly acquire guys (even though Gio was acquired in a trade).

I'd like to deal Arraez and Winder and Miranda to Oakland for Montas and a minor league player (maybe the TWins throw in another minor leaguer). That frees up space on the roster......I doubt Oakland does that though. But again, I'm dealing basically Twins' backup players (other than Winder), so not sure that frees up space for Lewis (it likely does if Larnach can play first and DH).

That would be a horrible trade. 

[nicksaviking]

29 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

I'd like to deal Arraez and Winder and Miranda to Oakland for Montas and a minor league player (maybe the TWins throw in another minor leaguer). That frees up space on the roster......I doubt Oakland does that though. But again, I'm dealing basically Twins' backup players (other than Winder), so not sure that frees up space for Lewis (it likely does if Larnach can play first and DH).

I was thinking about this too when I was trying to come up with some 2-for-1 or 3-for-1 deals for the Twins to make the other day.

But I actually think that deal is way too generous. I think Miranda, Winder and Arraez would have been an over pay prior to the season, now that we're two months in Oakland's going to have to take a discount, especially since outside of last night, Winder has looked like he's going to be really good.

But then on the other hand, the Twins just sent down their only infielder who's been hitting the ball. You don't send down one of your only competent hitters unless your prime objective is development, not winning a WS. So I'm kind of back on the belief that despite the record, this year is still only going to be a year to improve and get ready for the real fireworks next season, in which case, I still don't want to pay for a rental starter.

[JW24]

57 minutes ago, Steven Buhr said:

See, this is where you lose me... If struggling "happens to everyone," so it's inevitable with Lewis, then sending him down now just prolongs that event, doesn't it? I don't necessarily believe he MUST have some kind of inevitable meltdown beyond just regular slumps, but if the premise is correct, why wouldn't you want to get that out of the way sooner, than later? I simply don't buy that spending some time learning positions that are LESS demanding would threaten his sensitive psyche. 

Easy. The bat will go through a slump, no need to compound it with moving him all over the field (assuming the idea is to get him some time at 3B and OF). Has nothing to do with how demanding the positions are and everything to do with letting some of the growing pains happening in a lower stress environment.

I don't think Lewis is remotely sensitive. 2 years off from playing baseball and he shows up and delivers at the big league level like a vet. I fully expect the next time he gets called up it is for good.

[Doctor Gast]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

The short end of a platoon over an everyday player is the argument you're making right now. Sorry, not sold.

Another thing is one of Garlic's role is PHing and I believe (I could be wrong) what I've seen is Garlick's BA with RISP is .000. He might hit when it doesn't matter, he doesn't when it does matter.

[JW24]

1 hour ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

No need to make him learn "2 or 3" new positions.

3B plus DH plus occasional SS is enough to have Lewis in the lineup almost everyday.

And since we shift the 3B over to SS nearly 50% of the time anyway, 3B is more like half of a new position to Lewis.  Seriously, though, the positions are pretty closely related in modern MLB.

I think he would be able to figure it out at 3rd quickly enough. But if the Twins want to use him in the OF at times as well, that is more of an adjustment/learning curve.

[KnoblauchWasFramed]

Two things of random here I'd like to contribute about the current state of the game of baseball.

1.)  Do you know what made players like Hrbek, Puckett, Gaetti, Oliva, Carew, & Killebrew great?  Everyday they showed up they knew what position they were playing.  Even Carew and Killebrew, who played different positions, didn't randomly jump on a weekly position carousel and just "get in where you fit in."  Whether you want to believe it or not, a majority of professional athletes excel through a strong mental routine and consistency.  This isn't a real life version of MLB The Show 22 where you just sign free agent or draft blue chips players and then just move them to an entirely new position based on what day of the week it is.  Yes, players like Nick Gordon have no choice but to play where he can fit in just so he can actually play, however, this was the 5th overall player taken in the 2014 draft (9 spots ahead of Trea Turner).  Imagine where he and the Twins would be right now had he been given a shot to just play SS and concentrate on succeeding and excelling there.  Instead, the Twins just said, "Whelp. we're outta options on this guy but we don't want to lose that league minimum salary so let's just throw him in CF today and LF tomorrow and maybe SS the day after that.  Let's keep him guessing every morning."  

Royce Lewis was taken as the First Overall Pick in the 2017 Draft as a SS.  We've been playing him at SS his entire time on the team.  I have yet to see any evidence that this is not the position he will excel the most at.  At worst, he should spend some time at 3B until SS is open full time.  He does not in ANY WAY belong at 1B or anywhere in the OF.  Again. this isn't MLB The Show.  I understand Urshela has one more year of Arb control, but I missed the part where he is in the Twins 2023 plans at 31 years old and probably looking at $9m in Arb.  This is the guy who should be losing ABs and playing time right now.  Lewis has 1/2 as many hits as Urshela in only 1/3 of the ABs and he has 2/3 of the HRs and 1/2 of the RBIs.

2.)  Speaking of clearing some room on the 40 man roster, this is the ideal time to release Miguel Sano.  Why?  He is on the 60 day IL right now (assuming he rehabs in that time).  And if another team wanted to pick him up on waivers they would be on the hook for about 75% of his $9.25M salary and his $2.75M buyout for next year, or $9.6M, for someone who might now be back until July.  And even when he does come back, do you really think another team wants to take up a 40 man spot on someone who might very well still be in his yearly early season slump and pay the salary of the Strike Out King who is hitting an amazing .093 when he comes back?  This is the time to send him down to AAA and let him run out the clock on his contract since there is zero change the Twins pick up his $14M option for next year.  Best case scenario, someone does claim him and the Twins have some more money to use around the Trade Deadline, or next best case he gets a month an a half of kicking ass at AAA and we can actually package him in a Deadline deal to add some rental pitching help.  Since he's not coming back next year one way or another, why not try to pass him through Waivers right now based on his current IL situation?

3.  (Added another one real quick)  Speaking of knowing what your role is everyday, Taylor Rogers should have been the Twins closer since 2018.  But since the Delicate Genius Rocco knew better, he's played bullpen roulette since he's taken over and Rogers bouncer around between innings.  So... any idea on what's happened with Rogers since he was traded to the Padres and they made him the closer on Day One???   14 saves, 0.56 ERA, 0.56 WHIP, 18K/2BB, and the Twins are paying $6.5M of his salary to do that for someone else.  

Thank you.

[chpettit19]

18 minutes ago, JW24 said:

I think he would be able to figure it out at 3rd quickly enough. But if the Twins want to use him in the OF at times as well, that is more of an adjustment/learning curve.

He played CF in the AFL and looked like he'd been doing it his whole life. You should go watch the highlights. They're fun. Nick Gordon figured the outfield out on the fly at the ML level and, no offense to Nick, Lewis is the better player so I'm not sure why he'd struggle greatly with that. He'd be a better LFer right now than Kyle Garlick or Brent Rooker or Trevor Larnach have been for the Twins.

[Mike Sixel]

8 minutes ago, KnoblauchWasFramed said:

Two things of random here I'd like to contribute about the current state of the game of baseball.

1.)  Do you know what made players like Hrbek, Puckett, Gaetti, Oliva, Carew, & Killebrew great?  Everyday they showed up they knew what position they were playing.  Even Carew and Killebrew, who played different positions, didn't randomly jump on a weekly position carousel and just "get in where you fit in."  Whether you want to believe it or not, a majority of professional athletes excel through a strong mental routine and consistency.  This isn't a real life version of MLB The Show 22 where you just sign free agent or draft blue chips players and then just move them to an entirely new position based on what day of the week it is.  Yes, players like Nick Gordon have no choice but to play where he can fit in just so he can actually play, however, this was the 5th overall player taken in the 2014 draft (9 spots ahead of Trea Turner).  Imagine where he and the Twins would be right now had he been given a shot to just play SS and concentrate on succeeding and excelling there.  Instead, the Twins just said, "Whelp. we're outta options on this guy but we don't want to lose that league minimum salary so let's just throw him in CF today and LF tomorrow and maybe SS the day after that.  Let's keep him guessing every morning."  

Royce Lewis was taken as the First Overall Pick in the 2017 Draft as a SS.  We've been playing him at SS his entire time on the team.  I have yet to see any evidence that this is not the position he will excel the most at.  At worst, he should spend some time at 3B until SS is open full time.  He does not in ANY WAY belong at 1B or anywhere in the OF.  Again. this isn't MLB The Show.  I understand Urshela has one more year of Arb control, but I missed the part where he is in the Twins 2023 plans at 31 years old and probably looking at $9m in Arb.  This is the guy who should be losing ABs and playing time right now.  Lewis has 1/2 as many hits as Urshela in only 1/3 of the ABs and he has 2/3 of the HRs and 1/2 of the RBIs.

2.)  Speaking of clearing some room on the 40 man roster, this is the ideal time to release Miguel Sano.  Why?  He is on the 60 day IL right now (assuming he rehabs in that time).  And if another team wanted to pick him up on waivers they would be on the hook for about 75% of his $9.25M salary and his $2.75M buyout for next year, or $9.6M, for someone who might now be back until July.  And even when he does come back, do you really think another team wants to take up a 40 man spot on someone who might very well still be in his yearly early season slump and pay the salary of the Strike Out King who is hitting an amazing .093 when he comes back?  This is the time to send him down to AAA and let him run out the clock on his contract since there is zero change the Twins pick up his $14M option for next year.  Best case scenario, someone does claim him and the Twins have some more money to use around the Trade Deadline, or next best case he gets a month an a half of kicking ass at AAA and we can actually package him in a Deadline deal to add some rental pitching help.  Since he's not coming back next year one way or another, why not try to pass him through Waivers right now based on his current IL situation?

3.  (Added another one real quick)  Speaking of knowing what your role is everyday, Taylor Rogers should have been the Twins closer since 2018.  But since the Delicate Genius Rocco knew better, he's played bullpen roulette since he's taken over and Rogers bouncer around between innings.  So... any idea on what's happened with Rogers since he was traded to the Padres and they made him the closer on Day One???   14 saves, 0.56 ERA, 0.56 WHIP, 18K/2BB, and the Twins are paying $6.5M of his salary to do that for someone else.  

Thank you.

Sano isn't on the 40 man because he's on the IL. What are you trying achieve there?

[Mike Sixel]

31 minutes ago, rwilfong86 said:

That would be a horrible trade. 

How so? We have no idea who Winder really is, Arraez has no position on this roster and Miranda? He might be a 1B on this team. If CC leaves and Lewis is at SS, then Miranda might be the 3B (if Lewis isn't). Montas is one of the best SPs in the game and is controlled for another year after this. It is essentially the Berrios deal in reverse.

[baul0010]

51 minutes ago, Steven Buhr said:

The rest of this division REALLY sucks! We can coast a little bit, make some deals at the deadline and make a run at things this year."

The ones who let their foot off the pedal rarely end up in first.  We'll see how well coasting it for a bit works out for them.  I have a feeling we will be looking back after missing out on the playoffs wondering what if!

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, Mike Sixel said:

How so? We have no idea who Winder really is, Arraez has no position on this roster and Miranda? He might be a 1B on this team. If CC leaves and Lewis is at SS, then Miranda might be the 3B (if Lewis isn't). Montas is one of the best SPs in the game and is controlled for another year after this. It is essentially the Berrios deal in reverse.

Winder is an MLB pitcher, Arraez is an MLB hitter, and Miranda is a top prospect. That's far more value than the Twins got for Berrios.

[Mike Sixel]

2 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Winder is an MLB pitcher, Arraez is an MLB hitter, and Miranda is a top prospect. That's far more value than the Twins got for Berrios.

Winder has a handful of appearances, we don't know. Miranda is around the same ranking as Martin (though lower). Winder is ranked ahead of SWR, but he wasn't last year. So, sure, throwing in Arraez is probably too much. Take him out....I'm trying to clear some roster space here too. Frankly, there aren't many ways to make trades for this roster that make sense, other than a great SP.

[Mike Sixel]

But now we are off topic, and I'd hate for this devolve over something I just threw out there.

[nicksaviking]

10 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Winder is an MLB pitcher, Arraez is an MLB hitter, and Miranda is a top prospect. That's far more value than the Twins got for Berrios.

Well the Blues Jays prospects probably had more value in practice, but most people (possibly wrongly since the guy has next to no power potential) valued Austin Martin higher than any of those hypothetical Twins prospects. 

But the Blue Jays got a year and a half of Berrios, the Twins wouldn't even get a full season of Montas. So I do agree, at this point, the A's should have to settle for closer to trade deadline values for him now. Which to me might be something like Miranda and Sands. Maybe Winder and Arraez. Though, a sneaky add in would be Bundy. The Twins likely wouldn't want him any longer and could eat his salary, but in that ballpark, the A's could get lucky and see him pitch well and be able to flip him again in July.

[rwilfong86]

7 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

How so? We have no idea who Winder really is, Arraez has no position on this roster and Miranda? He might be a 1B on this team. If CC leaves and Lewis is at SS, then Miranda might be the 3B (if Lewis isn't). Montas is one of the best SPs in the game and is controlled for another year after this. It is essentially the Berrios deal in reverse.

Arraez is one of the best contact hitters and one of the better utility players in baseball, Winder has only played a handful of games and Miranda is still growing. That is an awful lot to give up for control for another year for a 29 year old pitcher who's been all over the place with consistency in his career. The Twins could get the 2021 version which was good winning 13 games or the 2020 version with a 5.60 ERA. At this point they'd be foolish to blow up the roster. 

[Mike Sixel]

2 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Well the Blues Jays prospects probably had more value in practice, but most people (possibly wrongly since the guy has next to no power potential) valued Austin Martin higher than any of those hypothetical Twins prospects. 

But the Blue Jays got a year and a half of Berrios, the Twins wouldn't even get a full season of Montas. So I do agree, at this point, the A's should have to settle for closer to trade deadline values for him now. Which to me might be something like Miranda and Sands. Maybe Winder and Arraez. Though, a sneaky add in would be Bundy. The Twins likely wouldn't want him any longer and could eat his salary, but in that ballpark, the A's could get lucky and be able to flip him again in July.

Montas isn't a free agent until 2024.

[rwilfong86]

2 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

Well the Blues Jays prospects probably had more value in practice, but most people (possibly wrongly since the guy has next to no power potential) valued Austin Martin higher than any of those hypothetical Twins prospects. 

But the Blue Jays got a year and a half of Berrios, the Twins wouldn't even get a full season of Montas. So I do agree, at this point, the A's should have to settle for closer to trade deadline values for him now. Which to me might be something like Miranda and Sands. Maybe Winder and Arraez. Though, a sneaky add in would be Bundy. The Twins likely wouldn't want him any longer and could eat his salary, but in that ballpark, the A's could get lucky and see him pitch well and be able to flip him again in July.

Miranda and Sands would be a deal I would support. 

[Mike Sixel]

1 minute ago, rwilfong86 said:

Arraez is one of the best contact hitters and one of the better utility players in baseball, Winder has only played a handful of games and Miranda is still growing. That is an awful lot to give up for control for another year for a 29 year old pitcher who's been all over the place with consistency in his career. The Twins could get the 2021 version which was good winning 13 games or the 2020 version with a 5.60 ERA. At this point they'd be foolish to blow up the roster. 

So, don't trade for a really good SP? I'm ok with that, but people need to stop complaining they aren't trying to win this year then......He's also a top 20 pitcher so far this year. 

[Mike Sixel]

Just now, rwilfong86 said:

Miranda and Sands would be a deal I would support. 

Anyone would, meaning it isn't close.