Despite Great First Impression, Royce Lewis Optioned to St. Paul After Tuesday's Game

[Riverbrian]

Just now, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Remember the motto of the Alfred E. Newman: "What me worry?" 

LOL... Greatest. American. Ever. Is what Alfred E. is. 

Just expressing my thoughts.

Not worried. 

This isn't a Nick Anderson level mistake yet. It's fixable. 

I just don't like the mechanism that led to this move. The mechanism is similar to how a Nick Anderson type mistake is made. 

Go with the guys getting the job done. 

[LA VIkes Fan]

I understand the decision but can't agree unless the idea is for Lewis to spend the next 2-3 weeks getting some reps at 3B, and maybe some at 2B and LF. I'm ok with the idea that he would come back up in a couple of weeks to play a super utility role, ala' Chris Taylor of the Dodgers, Otherwise, this doesn't make sense to me unless we're playing for  next year rather than this year. 

[Major League Ready]

10 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Kyle Garlick. As I mentioned and you again ignored.

But why wouldn't a pitcher be an option? With Bundy back they appear to be putting Winder back in the long relief role. Ober is coming back before Larnach. So they'll have plenty of pitchers. Why wouldn't that be an option?

And, yes, I'm focused on keeping the best players in the majors. Why would anything else be the focus? 

How does any of this change the question I posed.  One of Arraez / Urshela / Sanchez / Gordon / Celestino would have to go.  Which one are you getting rid off?   Sending down a pitcher would require you go with 6 bench players and 12 pitchers if you are not cutting one of the 5 bench players I mentioned so which one of those 5 are you cutting to keep Lewis?  

[roger]

Is this a surprise, yes.  Should it be, probably not.

Miranda stays and Lewis gets sent down.  Clearly based on fact Miranda is the only option the Twins have on the current roster to back up Arraez at first.  So does Miranda stay until; 1) Kirilloff begins driving the ball at St. Paul and returns; or 2) Sano comes off the DL?

Will be watching closely to see where Lewis plays with the Saints.  If it exclusively at short, will be pulling my hair out.  With a chance of Correa staying, they have to get Lewis comfortable at third, left and center, while also getting some time at short.  Will be first thing I check in the Saints box score every day.

[chpettit19]

11 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

How does any of this change the question I posed.  One of Arraez / Urshela / Sanchez / Gordon / Celestino would have to go.  Which one are you getting rid off?   Sending down a pitcher would require you go with 6 bench players and 12 pitchers if you are not cutting one of the 5 bench players I mentioned so which one of those 5 are you cutting to keep Lewis?  

Your question isn't accurate. None of those players need to go anywhere. They can carry a max of 13 pitchers starting May 29th. They will carry 13 pitchers because they always do. Until then they're likely to carry 12 position players and 14 pitchers. 

12 position players: (Garlick would be in for Larnach until he comes back)
Byron Buxton
Carlos Correa
Jorge Polanco
Luis Arraez
Gio Urshela
Gary Sanchez
Ryan Jeffers
Nick Gordon
Gilberto Celestino
Max Kepler
Trevor Larnach
Royce Lewis

Then once they have to send a pitcher down on the 29th they can call Garlick back up. Or Miranda. Or Kirilloff. Or Godoy. Or Contreras. Or whoever in the world they want. But you can pose your Arraez, Urshela, Sanchez, Gordon, Celestino question all you want. None of them need to go anywhere in order to keep Lewis. As I've now said 3 times Kyle Galick, who is an awful defender and only hits against lefties, is the guy I would send down.

[JDubs]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

There are plenty of ABs available on a team that isn't scoring many runs at all for one of the few guys that are hitting at the moment.

Yeah, but he doesn't need ABs, he needs reps at shortstop. Which he won't get because Correa is getting those.

[chpettit19]

1 minute ago, JDubs said:

Yeah, but he doesn't need ABs, he needs reps at shortstop. Which he won't get because Correa is getting those.

He's not going to get them in AAA either as the plan is to play him all over the field to get him used to being a super utility guy for the rest of the season.

[PDX Twin]

This is a short-term move. It's not like they have traded him for Matt Capps.

[nicksaviking]

Buxton, Kepler, Celestino, Gordon, Garlick and presumably Larnach was going to be the inevitable domino that sent Lewis down even if Miranda was sent down first. That's too many outfielders, especially considering Arraez can play the position as well. 

I agree that this should have been a difficult decision, but it should have been a difficult decision between Garlick, Celestino and Gordon, who nobody seems to notice has an OPS of .600. This is also committing to keeping Urshela and his .610 OPS in the starting lineup for the immediate future.

Yeah, there's some "shiny new toy" aspect to Lewis for sure, but this is undeniably making the offense worse.

[Danchat]

I can't find a reasonable way to justify this move... if you're trying to win more games, you've got to put him in your lineup every day no matter the position. It would make more sense if there were an actual log jam, but with Miranda looking completely lost at the plate, I don't get how he's still here. If anybody needs to get back to AAA ASAP, it's him. And if it's because we need a backup 1B - suddenly why do we not care about Miranda's development and only Lewis'?

I would consider DFA'ing Nick Gordon, he's a .600 OPS hitter when we've already got Celestino and Garlick on the bench (once Larnach is healthy), with his main strengths being speed and hitting singles. Very poor OBP, little power, not a big threat to steal bases, can't hit at all versus lefties... with Contreras as a fine backup on the 40 man, I'm not sure if Gordon is needed anymore.

[IowaBeancounter]

I don't like the decision, as I believe that Lewis' bat and speed is a difference maker.  In the 11 games he was up the Twins were 6-5 and I believe Lewis was instrumental in 2 of the wins, the 12-8 win vs Cleveland where he accounted for 5 of the runs and the 3-1 win against Oakland where he scored 2 runs.  In the 11 games the Twins scored 32 runs and Lewis was involved in 8 of those runs (runs + RBI - HR) or 25% of the production.  i believe that Lewis is capable of playing 3rd, outfield and if necessary 1st.  I know some believe that it is a waste of his athletic abilities to play first, but right now his bat is more important to the Twins, so what's wrong with him starting at first when facing a left hander, Arraez would be available to pinch hit for Urshella or Celestino and Lewis could fill in their positions, with Arraez taking 1st.   Just my 2 cents.   An additional point is that baring an injury Lewis is in St. Paul for 10 days.

[Schmoeman5]

8 hours ago, Squirrel said:

I’d love to think that maybe part of this decision is because they are confident in working out a long-term deal with Correa.

Yeah, I dream big.

That would be great. But if that's the Twins goal, to sign Correa to a long term deal is Lewis going back to AAA to learn the new position that he would be playing moving forward 

[saviking]

This may seem crazy, but I think Lewis just made Correa expendable come trade deadline. Can you imagine what we could do with that 35 million dollars going forward. It's hard to imagine Lewis will be as good as Correa but the question is: Is there 35 million dollars worth of difference? Maybe 10million difference but not 35 million. And depending on the prospect, prospects we get for Correa we could close that 10 million dollar gap.

As others have accurately mentioned, the Twins are stuck for the next two weeks. At that time larnach and Lewis will be on the club and Miranda will go back down.. He needs to go back down because if he stays up here his confidence will be shot. The dilemma is first  base. Although not prototypical size Arreaz  has done an admirable job at first and we need his bat in the lineup. When Larnach returns we will have plenty of options and it might be time to make Kepler our regular first baseman. And when Lewis comes back up a switch from SS to 3rd base would be a easy peavey. And Lewis could spend a lot of time pitch hitting in place of Sanchez.

This will be really interesting to watch the rest of the year. The Astro's series proved this club is not ready for prime time. Are they good enough to make the play offs. Absolutely but a World Series is out of the question. So here is the conversation I see coming at the trade deadline:

Twins to Correa. We either have to sign you to a long term contract right now or we need to trade you. We can't risk keeping you after the trade deadline and then have you opt out at the end of the year. We need clarity now.

And if we sign Correa long term, then I think Lewis would make a hell of a third basement long term. 

[Squirrel]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Why not send Miranda down now and wait until you actually know when Larnach is coming back before you send the better player down? What if Larnach isn't ready to come back until May 27th? That's 2 days before they need to jettison a pitcher. At that point wouldn't you jettison the pitcher on the 27th and not have to send Lewis down at all? 

I don't understand the rationale at all. Lewis is better than Miranda right now. There's no question about that. Why send down the better player? I fail to see that rationale.

I didn't know that Larnach was going to be sent on a rehab assignment. I had suggested that he wouldn't be activated to the 26-man roster in another thread and was soundly told that all signs pointed to the opposite. So, my opinions were stated when I thought it was 'certain' that Larnach would also be activated soon, like, by or before Friday. So ... I didn't think it was that big of a deal because I felt it would be both Lewis and Miranda for Correa and Larnach.

But, now that Larnach is going to rehab, well ... I still don't think it's that big of a deal. Honestly. Might not be exactly what I'd do, but I still think Lewis will be back up very soon and will play all over the field and be here for the rest of the season. I get that you and most think he can learn those positions while up with the Twins, and I'm not disagreeing with that, but I think there is rationale to send him down to play everyday, too.

 

[SwainZag]

1 hour ago, chpettit19 said:

Kyle Garlick. As I mentioned and you again ignored.

But why wouldn't a pitcher be an option? With Bundy back they appear to be putting Winder back in the long relief role. Ober is coming back before Larnach. So they'll have plenty of pitchers. Why wouldn't that be an option?

And, yes, I'm focused on keeping the best players in the majors. Why would anything else be the focus? 

Garlick is hitting .294/.429/.824 against left handed pitching and that is why he is on the roster.  Even though it's a SSS, he has a 145 WC+ against lefties for his career.  He has carved out a very useful role for himself.

[twinssporto]

This is a dumb move. Crazy actually. 

I don't like it at all!

[Doctor Gast]

3 hours ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Makes sense to me. 

To me thinking to sign Correa is not a good reason to send Lewis down. The question is can Lewis play in the MLB or not? To me he has answered the question it's unequivocally yes. Miranda needs time in AAA, they kept Kiriloff up quite awhile when wrist was clearly not adjusting so why are they so quick to send Lewis down, while he has been doing so well?

Unlike last year when they rushed players before their time and have some of them learn positions w/o any experience on the fly while adapting to the MLB. Lewis has experiences playing other positions and he has the make up and athleticism to excel anywhere he plays. So he can have plenty of playing time. The only unspoken reason is playing time, they think that they have the players to cover the positions which he can play. But Lewis is our best back up at SS, 3B & 2B so why send him down really?

[LA VIkes Fan]

The disappointing thing about this move is that it shows you what the FO and manager think about this year's team – that it isn't good enough to be competitive. Sending down Lewis is justifiable IF your primary goal is to position the team for NEXT year and you want Lewis to get reps at SS to be the SS next year. It isn't justifiable if your goal is to win THIS year unless this is a short term 2 to 3 week situation to play him at 3B and LF in AAA so he can come back up as an every day super utility player like Chris Taylor is with the Dodgers. That's my hope; but it doesn't look like that is the plan.

I find this very disappointing in part because I live in LA and watch a much better run team in the Dodgers who position themselves to be competitive every year. Hate them if you will because they have money, I get it, but that is in the main reason there always competitive. The main reason is that they do a very good job of balancing short-term success and long-term planning. They're probably the best in the MLB at doing that. There is zero chance that the Dodgers would send down Lewis in this situation. They would either making creative trade to open a spot for him, think trading Urshela for a non-40 man prospect or two, or they would bite the bullet and DFA someone who is unlikely to contribute to the long-term success of the team like Garlick. They would then find the at-bats for Lewis to keep him on the field at least four days a week as he learns his trade at the MLB level. That is what we should be doing and we are not. That should tell all of us is that the FO and the manager does not believe in this year's team. I frankly suspect that lack of belief is going to filter down to the current squad. The players know who should be on the team and who should not. Doing things like this is not the way to keep players like Correa from exercising options to leave or keep the other players happy and productive.

I will take all this back if in fact the plan is to have Lewis down in AAA for two or three weeks, bring him back when the roster composition shifts to 13 pictures and 13 position players, and they then find him a place to play every day either at 3B (Urshela simply doesn't hit well enough, looks like the utility infielder the Yankees thought he was), or LF with Larnach the primary DH. Or if they sign Correa to a longer team contract so Lewis is going down to AAA to learn to be the team's primary third baseman, or anything else that gives Lewis a chance to play most days and learn his craft at the MLB level. If not, frankly it's time for me to turn my attention to a better run team in the Dodgers or, unbelievably, the new management for the Angels who actually seem like they're competent enough and are turning that team into a contender.

 

[Riverbrian]

33 minutes ago, SwainZag said:

Garlick is hitting .294/.429/.824 against left handed pitching and that is why he is on the roster.  Even though it's a SSS, he has a 145 WC+ against lefties for his career.  He has carved out a very useful role for himself.

I get this.

But in the end you are keeping a guy to face lefthanders only just to cover for another guy who you'd rather not face lefthanders. 

Instead of keeping the guy who is hitting both.  

You are using two, where you could use one. 

 

 

[chpettit19]

13 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

I didn't know that Larnach was going to be sent on a rehab assignment. I had suggested that he wouldn't be activated to the 26-man roster in another thread and was soundly told that all signs pointed to the opposite. So, my opinions were stated when I thought it was 'certain' that Larnach would also be activated soon, like, by or before Friday. So ... I didn't think it was that big of a deal because I felt it would be both Lewis and Miranda for Correa and Larnach.

But, now that Larnach is going to rehab, well ... I still don't think it's that big of a deal. Honestly. Might not be exactly what I'd do, but I still think Lewis will be back up very soon and will play all over the field and be here for the rest of the season. I get that you and most think he can learn those positions while up with the Twins, and I'm not disagreeing with that, but I think there is rationale to send him down to play everyday, too.

 

I don't think it's a huge deal in the grand scheme. I think it sends a bad message, though. Not necessarily to players, but just in general. To me it feels like they had a plan and that's all there is to it. He was going to come up until Correa got back and he was going back. Didn't matter if he hit 1.000. 

As for playing everyday I don't buy that either. He could, and should, play everyday for the Twins. Buxton, Correa, Polanco, Lewis is how I'd rank the top 4 players in the Twins org right now. You play Lewis over Urshela. DH him over Sanchez or Jeffers. Play him over Gordon. Play him over Miranda. Play him over Garlick. There are everyday ABs available in the majors so sending him down to play everyday doesn't make sense to me. The offense has been horrible and he's one of the few guys doing well. They're in a stretch of games that they need to rack up wins in. Play your best players and dominate this stretch. If he starts struggling like Miranda adjust then. But right now he gives you a better chance to win. That's all that should matter.

[chpettit19]

8 minutes ago, SwainZag said:

Garlick is hitting .294/.429/.824 against left handed pitching and that is why he is on the roster.  Even though it's a SSS, he has a 145 WC+ against lefties for his career.  He has carved out a very useful role for himself.

The short end of a platoon over an everyday player is the argument you're making right now. Sorry, not sold.

[Rosterman]

QUIT TRYING TO MAKE PLAYERS VERSATILE.

Lewis needs to prove himself as a starting shortstop and is doing a very good job doing just that. Don't mess with him at other positions. 

Yes, he needs to play everyday, get the at bats, do the fielding, and NOT get hurt. More likely to do that in St. Paul than on the bench at Target, assuming Correa is healthy and will be in the line-up at short every single day from hereon out.

[SwainZag]

Just now, Riverbrian said:

I get this.

But in the end you are keeping a guy to face lefthanders only just to cover for another guy who you'd rather not face lefthanders. 

Instead of keeping the guy is hitting both.  

You are using two, where you could use one. 

 

 

If they both played the same position, then sure. Lewis isn't an outfielder.  Garlick has a starting corner OF position against lefties, and as he should.

[Major League Ready]

13 minutes ago, saviking said:

This may seem crazy, but I think Lewis just made Correa expendable come trade deadline. Can you imagine what we could do with that 35 million dollars going forward. It's hard to imagine Lewis will be as good as Correa but the question is: Is there 35 million dollars worth of difference? Maybe 10million difference but not 35 million. And depending on the prospect, prospects we get for Correa we could close that 10 million dollar gap.

As others have accurately mentioned, the Twins are stuck for the next two weeks. At that time larnach and Lewis will be on the club and Miranda will go back down.. He needs to go back down because if he stays up here his confidence will be shot. The dilemma is first  base. Although not prototypical size Arreaz  has done an admirable job at first and we need his bat in the lineup. When Larnach returns we will have plenty of options and it might be time to make Kepler our regular first baseman. And when Lewis comes back up a switch from SS to 3rd base would be a easy peavey. And Lewis could spend a lot of time pitch hitting in place of Sanchez.

This will be really interesting to watch the rest of the year. The Astro's series proved this club is not ready for prime time. Are they good enough to make the play offs. Absolutely but a World Series is out of the question. So here is the conversation I see coming at the trade deadline:

Twins to Correa. We either have to sign you to a long term contract right now or we need to trade you. We can't risk keeping you after the trade deadline and then have you opt out at the end of the year. We need clarity now.

And if we sign Correa long term, then I think Lewis would make a hell of a third basement long term. 

If the pitching holds together and the offense gets going it will be a tough call on keeping Correa.  If they are not a serious contender, it will be very hard to pass up a great return on Correa who is going to opt out unless he plays very poorly.  They started down a path when they traded Berrios and that path was a transition year in 2022.  More to the point, the Twins are not spending $300M or even $250M on one player especially when they have a good replacement ready.  Of course, it's possible none of the serious contenders needs a SS and the return is not there.  However, there is a pretty good chance Royce Lewis is our permanent SS on Aug 1.  It's also possible Urshela / Arraez or Gordon get traded and he spends the rest of the season in a utility role.  I would bet he spends 1/2 of the year with the Twins in some capacity and opening day next year will be Lewis at SS.

[nicksaviking]

The damage can be mitigated if he's called back up for June 1. Maybe it can be avoided all together if during that time they give him one of those fancy pre-arb, big money, long term contract extensions.

Doesn't seem like a Twins move, but they should be thinking about it if they don't want to start burning through the goodwill they've built these last couple of months.

[chpettit19]

5 minutes ago, SwainZag said:

If they both played the same position, then sure. Lewis isn't an outfielder.  Garlick has a starting corner OF position against lefties, and as he should.

Did you see Lewis play OF in the AFL? He is a better OFer than Garlick is right now.

[Riverbrian]

1 hour ago, LA VIkes Fan said:

The disappointing thing about this move is that it shows you what the FO and manager think about this year's team – that it isn't good enough to be competitive. Sending down Lewis is justifiable IF your primary goal is to position the team for NEXT year and you want Lewis to get reps at SS to be the SS next year. It isn't justifiable if your goal is to win THIS year unless this is a short term 2 to 3 week situation to play him at 3B and LF in AAA so he can come back up as an every day super utility player like Chris Taylor is with the Dodgers. That's my hope; but it doesn't look like that is the plan.

I find this very disappointing in part because I live in LA and watch a much better run team in the Dodgers who position themselves to be competitive every year. Hate them if you will because they have money, I get it, but that is in the main reason there always competitive. The main reason is that they do a very good job of balancing short-term success and long-term planning. They're probably the best in the MLB at doing that. There is zero chance that the Dodgers would send down Lewis in this situation. They would either making creative trade to open a spot for him, think trading Urshela for a non-40 man prospect or two, or they would bite the bullet and DFA someone who is unlikely to contribute to the long-term success of the team like Garlick. They would then find the at-bats for Lewis to keep him on the field at least four days a week as he learns his trade at the MLB level. That is what we should be doing and we are not. That should tell all of us is that the FO and the manager does not believe in this year's team. I frankly suspect that lack of belief is going to filter down to the current squad. The players know who should be on the team and who should not. Doing things like this is not the way to keep players like Correa from exercising options to leave or keep the other players happy and productive.

I will take all this back if in fact the plan is to have Lewis down in AAA for two or three weeks, bring him back when the roster composition shifts to 13 pictures and 13 position players, and they then find him a place to play every day either at 3B (Urshela simply doesn't hit well enough, looks like the utility infielder the Yankees thought he was), or LF with Larnach the primary DH. Or if they sign Correa to a longer team contract so Lewis is going down to AAA to learn to be the team's primary third baseman, or anything else that gives Lewis a chance to play most days and learn his craft at the MLB level. If not, frankly it's time for me to turn my attention to a better run team in the Dodgers or, unbelievably, the new management for the Angels who actually seem like they're competent enough and are turning that team into a contender.

 

I can't say for sure what the Dodgers would do but I have been watching them close. If a player displayed what Lewis displayed while Trae Turner was out. I do believe that the Dodgers would have kept Lewis up when he returned. I'd guess that they would have put him in LF primarily. Taylor would have then moved to the super utility role. 

It can be argued that the Twins don't have a Chris Taylor... No we don't... Not Exactly but that is because we haven't created a Chris Taylor yet and we should. Arraez and Gordon are our attempts at it

Not to mention Gavin Lux who was moved around when he first arrived and is still being moved around. And Max Muncy who has been moved around when he first arrived is also on the roster and is still being moved around. 

This is positional boxing of players into single position boxes is an unnecessary self created handicap that the Twins need to overcome. And Today I'm saying... Overcome it quickly. The Dodgers have. 

A question has been in my mind for a long time now: How can a team as loaded as the Dodgers find the playing time for a player like Max Muncy? It's the willingness (fearlessness) to move players around the diamond to let them continue contributing that makes it possible.  The Dodgers don't talk themselves out of it. It makes them bulletproof. 

[Winston Smith]

4 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

 

1. Based on actual performance on the field. We just sent down our 4th best position player. I understand that this is my opinion. I also understand small sample sizes. I understand that he could slump in the future and settle in at a different spot in my subjective rankings.

However... The guy was handed a job and he did that job better than most of the players who remain and it wasn't particularly close either. The team just sent down our 4th best position player in my opinion. I know we can always call him back up... it's not the end of the world... we didn't release him... but yeah... we just sent down our 4th best position player. That is always going to be hard to justify. 

2. They were unprepared for his success. The organization was not prepped for this. Baldelli said that they are going to send him down to play SS but also get exposed to other positions. THEY ARE LATE WITH THIS PLAN!!! If it is necessary to get him exposed to other positions... it should have been done already. 

It's disappointing that my team (that I thought was progressive) would let a positional bottleneck occur. If you have a Correa on the 26 man roster and a top prospect on the 40 man at the same position and not considering (planning) for the possibility of a different position for that position player behind Correa... you dropped the ball.

Even if you don't have a Correa on your roster... any time a prospect has to wait in line at one position and one position only... you extend that wait... waiting for that one spot to get hurt or fail. THEY ARE LATE WITH THIS NEW PLAN!!! 

3. Do we have to wait until Correa specifically gets hurt again to see Lewis. How long is this exposure process going to take? If Kepler or Urshela gets hurt for example next week... will Lewis need more exposure or do we call up a lesser player to play 3B or OF instead? 

Miranda has not played well and is still here so the answer appears to be lesser players until this exposure process plays out.  

I remain supportive of the front office but Jeez... I am disappointed. 

 

 

 

We just need to understand that Falvey and Lavine are the smartest guys in baseball and the plan they have is so over ours heads we have to just trust them.

With a track record in six years of zero playoff games won how can we not trust them?

[Riverbrian]

10 minutes ago, SwainZag said:

If they both played the same position, then sure. Lewis isn't an outfielder.  Garlick has a starting corner OF position against lefties, and as he should.

Lewis isn't an OF'er because the organization is refusing to let him play OF at best or didn't prepare him to be an OF at worst. 

Nick Gordon wouldn't be an OF'er either with the same stipulations applied to Lewis. 

[Riverbrian]

2 minutes ago, Winston Smith said:

We just need to understand that Falvey and Lavine are the smartest guys in baseball and the plan they have is so over ours heads we have to just trust them.

With a track record in six years of zero playoff games won how can we not trust them?

My frustration isn't at that level. 

I do trust them. It's a tricky job with lots of moving parts to manage. Everybody in the world makes questionable decisions from time to time.

My criticism is more constructive in nature. Or at least intended to be that way.