Rant on Empty Seats At Target Field

[DJL44]

3 hours ago, dex8425 said:

Except you can walk up to Target field and buy a ticket for 18 bucks. That's a steal compared to doing anything in the entertainment business. Heck, even a one day state park vehicle pass is what, 15 bucks now?

$35 for the year or $7 for the day.

Minnesota state parks vehicle permit | Minnesota DNR

[TheLeviathan]

Baseball is a dying sport.  Seats will continue to be empty across baseball and less and less of the ones filled will be with kids.

[Rosterman]

Baseball is coming back after a year of NO fans in the stands followed by a year of some fans, but a bad season of play.

Season tickets were Blah! 

Plus the weather was touch-and-go in April. School happens. And now that the weather is wonderful, people are out-and-about and scrambling to gets things planted, normal springtime activities (they are starting to push 20,000 fans), and summer.

Way back, Calvin Griffith was shicked when after committing his move to Minnesota he suddenly discovered (realized) people go fishing, abandon the town on the weekend for cabins and lakes, and other outdoor endeavors. The positive flip side is that people do come to town and do partake in OUTDOOR baseball, either here or in Saints-land.

Watch for specials and lotsa of game packages. But it will take some clever marketing to egt fans back in the stands.

If I were the Twins, I would be liberally employing former players, or those sitting out injuries, to appear at events (especially major sandlot games). Nothing sells tickets like personal appearances along with TC Bear. (Has TC Bear ever given a commencement address?)

Winning will help, if the team can keep it going. Nothing like a beautiful afternoon or evening at one of the finer parks in the country, if you don't fear for your life riding the lightrail or parking outside the ramps in downtown Minneapolis.

[RickOShea]

6 hours ago, DJL44 said:

If the Twins have empty seats it is because the cost is too high. I checked on tickets for a mid-week game in the next series. The tickets for upper deck seats were advertised at $15 each but added over $12 in fees making the cost per ticket over $21 each. Ticket prices above $20 are no longer "cheap seats". If you want to go on a weekend the price is usually $5 per ticket higher. There are discounts and coupons but you have to put in some effort to find them and they're always dwarfed by the added fees.

MLB teams don't care about in-person attendance. Each new stadium that gets built has fewer seats than the one it replaced. Once they sell out the luxury boxes they've made their money.

It doesn't help the Twins that casual fans can go to a Saints game and get a better ballpark experience for less money.

Please define your version of a better ballpark experience by going to a Saints game.   Seems like a an subjective point of view, rather than being  an objective one.

[DJL44]

4 hours ago, RickOShea said:

Please define your version of a better ballpark experience by going to a Saints game.   Seems like a an subjective point of view, rather than being  an objective one.

Closer to the action so you can see and hear what is happening on the field instead of being stuck in the upper deck. Better between innings entertainment. Cheaper beer and other concessions. Friday night fireworks.

The only thing the Saints were missing before was high quality baseball. Now with AAA players you're guaranteed some future MLB stars as well as other players with MLB experience. It is a lot more fun for a family to attend a Saints game and it costs a fraction of what it costs to see the Twins.

[Unwinder]

47 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Closer to the action so you can see and hear what is happening on the field instead of being stuck in the upper deck. Better between innings entertainment. Cheaper beer and other concessions. Friday night fireworks.

The only thing the Saints were missing before was high quality baseball. Now with AAA players you're guaranteed some future MLB stars as well as other players with MLB experience. It is a lot more fun for a family to attend a Saints game and it costs a fraction of what it costs to see the Twins.

Generally I agree, the product on the field is pretty much indistinguishable from major league play unless you watch a lot of baseball, I like going to the Saints about as much as I like going to the Twins, for different reasons. Except for right now when all the good prospects have been called up and it's all AAAA filler.

[DJL44]

Now the Saints even have Royce Lewis! Best time ever to head to St. Paul.

[wsnydes]

For what it's worth, the Twins also have Friday night fireworks.

 

[Danielspr]

19 hours ago, LewFordLives said:

Agreed. MLB's gross mismanagement of it's broadcast contracts is a whole subject unto itself. The owners only care about those near term dollars and it's gonna bite them in the ass long-term. I just lost MLB Network on my cable provider. I figured that's ok, I can just stream it on MLB.TV, which I pay for. But wait! When you watch MLB Network through the app, it can only be done on a mobile device, not on a TV streaming device. Does any of this make any sense? I grew up with baseball. To an extent I'm willing to go the extra mile to find the MLB content I want, but what about the younger people or casual fans?  Half of them can't even watch the games because of regional blackouts and local carrier disputes. Why should they care anymore?

Do you have a VPN, or simply blue tooth the device stream to your television. Watching any MLB, or any sporting event is fairly simple, sans laying out any $, save for your own network. 

[Unwinder]

Oh yeah, as a craft beer guy, I have no idea why the Twins are incapable of offering as wide a selection of local brews as the Saints. If I'm paying $12 per beer at an event with 18,000 people, I should be able to find pretty much any kind of beer that I want.

[Tibs]

20 hours ago, DJL44 said:

That's interesting. I don't have season tickets and those same tickets show as $12-$15 before fees for me. Were you logged into your season ticket holder account?

No, just on SeatGeek. I don't receive a discount for games not included in my season ticket package.

[MMMordabito]

It's all about cost and convenience for me.

The handling of Buxton and Lewis isn't helping either.  Why go when you don't even know if the best players will be playing?

[Rosterman]

Only 3,000 some fans at the Oakland game. 

 

Now with Lewis going to St. Paul, maybe THAT team can win and fill their stands.

[MABB1959]

I bought 4 lower level tickets to the Houston game it was close to $300 but since we seem to have a better team and the owners seem to be willing to invest money I thought what the heck!  The other reason was Correa was supposed to play but did not.  The storm took us out at 4 innings.  Well that was my one game as it is cost prohibitive, you never know who is playing I would have loved a Berrios, Buxton and Correa game.  Berrios is gone and Buxton seem to have every 3rd day off now so in purchasing tickets you don't know who will be on the field.  We also have inflation to take into consideration.  Their are baseball fans that probably cant afford the cheapest tickets, a hot dog and parking.  Last fact and maybe most important is the lack of games some are able to watch on TV.  I love all sports and was able to watch the Wild in round 1 and kind of fell in love with the team.  If not for the televised event that wouldn't have happened.  They need to fix that so the average can get to know the team and want to go support the Twins.  

[Bigfork Twins Guy]

All very good points for lack of attendance.  I have said on other threads, and will repeat... the game is too slow for the younger generation who have short attention spans.  Not much the Twins can do but MLB can and should look at ways to speed the pace of play.

[Unwinder]

Interesting tangent: I just looked up game attendance so far this year, and I noticed that the Twins have the worst AWAY game attendance in MLB by a long shot this year, due no doubt to the soft schedule and most games against large-market teams being at home.

[bean5302]

I have a season ticket package and I've been disappointed with attendance as well. Attendance across MLB has been pretty poor this year, and I'm sure that has been fueled by season ticket holders letting their tickets go. The Twins actually have an automatic renewal system for season tickets now.

The weather in April really was horrible. I mean that. Horrible. It was one of the coldest and windiest Aprils in Minnesota history. That's a fact. What's also true is it was universally terrible. Almost every single day in April was cold and windy and that is really unusual. Normally, "coldest April in <insert span of time>" has to do with 2 weeks of brutal cold and snow followed by two weeks of normal to above. That wasn't the case this year. It's been just a nasty experience. That said, my seasons have seen multiple days where the weather was good and attendance has been universally awful regardless of whether or not it was nice out or even a weekend. MLB attendance looks to be down about 10-20% from 2019 so far.

Concessions... I don't think this is really a big issue. A (big) burger and fries basket from Hennepin Grill is $15. $13.50 with the season ticket holder discount. Not sure if anybody has been to a restaurant lately, but that's not terrible. A burger and fries at Five Guys is more. Is Five Guys better? Sure, but the Hennepin Grill burger is solid. For real. I've had a lot of other food items as well. It's just not that much more than other places. Big Dog with chips? $7.50 ($6.75 for season ticket holders). A craft draft beer like Bent Paddle's Cold Press Black Ale is $13 ($11.80 for season ticket holders). In a pub, near Target Field, expect it to set you back $9-10+. Concessions have always been more at games than in breweries. I think prices for concessions this year are closer to other establishments than they have been. Side note, Twins Pay was a colossal failure out of the gate. The menu system and scanners were largely non-functional, though things have gotten much better. That said, lots of people were severely PO'ed. There are special discounts like the family 4 pack as well. 

Transportation/Parking... I think it's actually cheaper than it used to be? $12 for the ABC ramps. Unfortunately, there are fewer good mass transit options than there used to be. Some of that has to do with the delayed/questionable season start and honestly, a lot of people don't want to wear masks, etc so no metro transit for them for the first 3 weeks of the season. There is NO Northstar this year. There is NO MTC Twins Express Bus this year. I remember taking packed Twins express busses in years past and I think the Northstar was pretty packed as well for Twins games?

Ticket prices. I didn't look around at prices too much because I knew what seats I wanted. Ticket prices are up about 20% since 2012 or so (2.2% annually). I think it would have been smart for MLB clubs (like the Twins) to make tickets cheaper in general considering the fanbase's cold feelings at the moment, but I've noticed a lot of spam regarding steeply discounted tickets for games in my email. Honestly, I don't think ticket prices themselves are exclusionary to attendance this year... but I expect the fees on top of fees on top of fees from service partners like Ticketmaster and Stubhub might be pushing people away. The fees are the biggest reason which pushed me into seasons for sure. After all, even if my tickets were like 20% under face, I'd pay more after checkout anyway. I see above 4 "Lower Level" seats cost $300. Single game tickets in lower level seats can be picked up below $40, even for premium games. Next game vs. Detroit? $19/ea+ fees for lower level seats in the Left Field Bleachers through Ticketmaster, $13/ea+ fees (row 2). 

Location. Yes. I do think this matters. People don't want to get shot. Minneapolis' reputation is utter and complete TRASH. People are scared of Minneapolis, and for good reason. I've been friends with people who've been event and service industry workers for many years and even they don't want to be in Minneapolis for work, including close to Target Field. They've been harassed, their co-workers held up at gunpoint, they've watched police presence vanish, it's much worse than it used to be. I have not personally witnessed anything untoward at Target Field or the immediate area, but the reputation and fallout from the last couple years is real.

Apathy. I believe this is real. I think the season ticket holders and long time fans are the ones who are truly apathetic at this point. I think the lockout, the initial announcement of lost games, etc, had a powerful impact on the core fanbase. Maybe stronger than I thought it would. Furthermore, young adults DGAF about baseball and while MLB markets heavily, oh so heavily at children trying to grow the fanbase from a young age, children do not pay the bills. MLB has failed to turn those 5 year old fans getting a ball tossed to them or running the bases into a 15 or 25 year old fan willing to pay for a game. I see Cowboy Jack's rooftop spilling over before,, during, and after every single game and yet at least 1/2 the stadium remains totally empty... even on nice days... even on the weekends. I must admit... even I haven't been "following" the Twins or MLB as closely this year even though I'm a season ticket holder. There isn't a lot of excitement with my friends. There isn't any buzz around the sport. Somehow, that ramp up of Spring Training, etc, was probably far more important than I figured it would be. it all adds up to empty seats and a real issue for MLB.

Saw somebody comment on "why does it matter?" No fans in the seats = dead sport at or away from the stadium with no team salary budget leading to uncompetitive or even no play. There were a group of Astros fans behind me at one of the Astros series games. I was a little embarrassed at how poor attendance was despite it being a beautiful night. The game day experience is impacted greatly based on attendance. For the opening few weeks, at least 1/2 of the vendors were closed. There are still quite a few stalls with metal doors down. It looks bad and feels gloomy which contributes to people being less enthusiastic to come back. A big crowd provides a lot of energy to the event and excites itself. My friend shared a photo of the Coliseum during the 7th inning out in Oakland the other night. It was seriously deflating. You could literally count the fans.

If you want the best seat for the plays, watch it on TV. If you want the best seat for the game along with a memorable experience and excitement, you need to go to the stadium. 

[CRF]

Talk about empty stands...I know they don't draw, but there's only about 14 people in the stands today in Oakland. Ok, maybe I  exaggerated a little bit, but there sure aren't many folks there. 

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, bean5302 said:

I have a season ticket package and I've been disappointed with attendance as well. Attendance across MLB has been pretty poor this year, and I'm sure that has been fueled by season ticket holders letting their tickets go. The Twins actually have an automatic renewal system for season tickets now.

...........

If you want the best seat for the plays, watch it on TV. If you want the best seat for the game along with a memorable experience and excitement, you need to go to the stadium. 

All good points on why I would care. Thanks for the good post.

[lecroy24fan]

@bean5302 I chalk up the Twins Pay failures early on as a result of them rushing it out with only a few days notice. I've heard other teams are also doing it and it was a disaster at first for them too. 

[Unwinder]

6 hours ago, CRF said:

Talk about empty stands...I know they don't draw, but there's only about 14 people in the stands today in Oakland. Ok, maybe I  exaggerated a little bit, but there sure aren't many folks there. 

Oakland has been doing everything in their power to put a poor product on the field and lose fans in some sort of gambit to get a new stadium. They have the worst attendance in MLB and it's not close.

[Drunk_Goose]

11 hours ago, Unwinder said:

Oakland has been doing everything in their power to put a poor product on the field and lose fans in some sort of gambit to get a new stadium. They have the worst attendance in MLB and it's not close.

Did they even get a lot of fans during their hey day with Henderson, Canseco, etc? I think folks in Oakland simply do not care about the team. Raiders were king in Oakland before they moved, and the A's were always their little sister as it were as far as fans go and that hasn't changed even with Raiders now in Vegas.

I truly think they will move the team, probably to the aforementioned Vegas lol. I just don't see how they think they can get another stadium when they can't fill even half of the one they are in now.

[Number3]

Watched about 5 minutes of the Nationals - Marlins last night and Miami probably had about 2,000 at most in the stands and that might be an over estimate. Funny thing is that the really expensive seats right behind home plate were relatively full. I wonder if there is something "funny" going on with that since the majority of TV video is from center field directly to home plate in order to cover the pitches and then be able to complain about the umpire's call. The TV production crew can literally avoid showing all of the empty seats unless absolutely necessary. It may get to the point where some kind of incentive is offered to make sure those behind the plate seats are occupied for TV purposes. No question there are more reasons not to go to games than there are to go to games, not the least of which is the game itself. Watching the pitcher and catcher play catch and a bunch of foul balls is not great entertainment. A grounder to short is relative excitement.

[Unwinder]

3 minutes ago, Drunk_Goose said:

Did they even get a lot of fans during their hey day with Henderson, Canseco, etc? I think folks in Oakland simply do not care about the team. Raiders were king in Oakland before they moved, and the A's were always their little sister as it were as far as fans go and that hasn't changed even with Raiders now in Vegas.

I truly think they will move the team, probably to the aforementioned Vegas lol. I just don't see how they think they can get another stadium when they can't fill even half of the one they are in now.

I hope they move.

[snotboogie]

19 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Location. Yes. I do think this matters. People don't want to get shot. Minneapolis' reputation is utter and complete TRASH. People are scared of Minneapolis, and for good reason. I've been friends with people who've been event and service industry workers for many years and even they don't want to be in Minneapolis for work, including close to Target Field. They've been harassed, their co-workers held up at gunpoint, they've watched police presence vanish, it's much worse than it used to be. I have not personally witnessed anything untoward at Target Field or the immediate area, but the reputation and fallout from the last couple years is real.

 

Not quite sure of what to make of Minneapolis' reputation.  It seems to me that attendance at Wolves' games would be down also with Target Center being right on 1st Ave N, and the Vikings to a lesser extent, since they are on the other side of downtown.  I too have not experienced anything untoward in my years of going to Target Field, and I either ride my bike or take the #5 bus to games.  Anecdotal evidence can be tricky.

[Whitey333]

Twins are currently 24 out of 30 teams in attendance.  Not being able to regularly see the team on tv has hurt a lot.  It's kind of foolish to put a product that people have limited access to.  I've been a very long time Twins fan but must say the team isn't very exciting at all.  They play boring baseball.  I won't go to a night game anymore due to lack of security and safety in Minneapolis.  Also the team in it's player personnel and on field moves sure isn't fan friendly.  Cost is pretty high.  I still go to a few games but go alone.  I'm really disappointed in how the fans are treated like adversaries if we voice any concerns.  To me the game is becoming almost unwatchable with rule changes and all the metrics.

[bean5302]

15 hours ago, lecroy24fan said:

@bean5302 I chalk up the Twins Pay failures early on as a result of them rushing it out with only a few days notice. I've heard other teams are also doing it and it was a disaster at first for them too. 

Ab-so-lute-ly. They weren't ready, but why shouldn't they have been ready? It's not like they couldn't have done some testing, even during the lockout as the front office and limited service staff weren't locked out. That's my feeling, and I'd wager a lot of other peoples' feelings.

Anyway, it led to countless embarrassing situations where Twins Pay didn't work and people didn't have their purse/clutch etc with them when it came to pay time because they were just planning to use their phone. Establishments like Town Ball were the hardest hit because of the logistics of the scanners. Lots of beers were comped at Town Ball as a result, but a free beer doesn't do much when people are horribly embarrassed by not being able to pay and that goes a long way towards never seeing those customers again.

I just skipped Twins Pay for the first few games knowing it was such a disaster so my experience is fine now.

[Employee No. 4210]

On 5/18/2022 at 10:24 AM, MMMordabito said:

It's all about cost and convenience for me.

The handling of Buxton and Lewis isn't helping either.  Why go when you don't even know if the best players will be playing?

I remember once Tom Kelly saying he would never rest Kirby Puckett at home; the home fans want to see Kirby Puckett, and they're paying to see Kirby Puckett; Puckett's rest days would all be on the road. Rocco - for better or worse - has his analytics that say when it is the best day/time to rest a Buxton or Correa or Polanco or Kepler (who is insanely popular if you've ever ventured down the right-field line at a Twins' home game) and that player is resting that day, regardless of fans or promotions or anything. 

[bean5302]

3 hours ago, snotboogie said:

Not quite sure of what to make of Minneapolis' reputation.  It seems to me that attendance at Wolves' games would be down also with Target Center being right on 1st Ave N, and the Vikings to a lesser extent, since they are on the other side of downtown.  I too have not experienced anything untoward in my years of going to Target Field, and I either ride my bike or take the #5 bus to games.  Anecdotal evidence can be tricky.

The Wolves are popular with different demographics, play in a stadium 1/2 the seating capacity and = for 1/2 the games so it's hard to make a good comparison. Attendance was flat despite it the second time in 17 years they made the playoffs and it was down 6% from 2018, the last time they made the playoffs. It's just hard to say.

Anecdotal evidence can be inaccurate, but I know how I personally feel, how my friends feel and how my service industry friends feel and what they've seen and heard from customers.

[bean5302]

4 hours ago, Unwinder said:

I hope they move.

They are 100% going to move somewhere. There's no question about that, but it does look like the Howard Terminal project faces a huge vote on June 2nd after the Seaport Planning Advisory Committee recommended against the repurposing of the port.