Rocco Baldelli Regaining 'Manager of the Year' Form, to the Dismay of Haters

[LastOnePicked]

Nick's Mark Antony defense speech for Caesar. I dig it.

On the plus side, Rocco respects the game and the people involved in it. He's not a showboat. He does his job with diligence and treats people with dignity. the Twins have bounced back from a terrible season nicely. Rocco's ability to connect with and respect the players was cited by Correa as a reason to come here. All of that is clearly in his favor.

However ... his outcomes so far fall short of what anyone could call greatness. He can keep a team together very well over a long season, but when the pressure's on, whether in the playoffs or in a regular series with the big boys of MLB, the results just aren't there. I'm not sure if it's his fault, but he hasn't yet helped his team make it happen. There appears to be something missing when a burst of toughness is needed from this team.

Has he earned some slack? Yes. I think he and the FO have. I've dialed my criticisms way down. BUT, I don't blame the skeptics out there. There's another level for this team to unlock, and if he can't do it, it's reasonable to demand that someone else try.

[Puckett34]

I find myself more of a Rocco supporter than deterrer(?). 

Having said all that, I think managers in general get far too much of the blame or credit for a teams success or failure. 

[chpettit19]

34 minutes ago, laloesch said:

Who is currently calling for Baldelli's head as manager?  I'm not seeing it.  And it's perfectly legit to "complain" about a strategy that is not conducive to playoff success.  A team might be able to consistently get away with short starts during the regular season, but in the playoffs that doesn't work against stronger teams and effectively wears down the pen.  It is a valid criticism.

You're kidding right? Did you watch the playoffs last year? I'll just do the Braves and Stros here since they were the WS teams, but here's their starters innings in each of their playoff games last year.

Braves: 6, 6, 5, 3.1, 6, 3, 5, 1 (followed by 3.1), 4.2, 4, 2.1, 5, 5, .1 (followed by 4.2), 2, 6. Clinching game 6 and starter had a shutout through 6 and they pulled him. Average start less than 5 innings (and that's even counting the 3.1 and 4.2 as the true start.

Stros: 6.2, 4.1, 2.2, 4, 2.2, 1 (Odo came in and then went 4), 1.2, (no pitcher went even 2 innings for them in this game), 1.1, 8, 5.2, 2, 5, 3.2, 4, 2.2, 2.2. They had 2 games with a pitcher going at least 6, and 2 more that they made it through at least 5. 4 out of 16 games with a guy who made it through even 5 innings. That's 25%. Average start less than 4 innings.

So, as others have pointed out, these "valid criticisms" are criticisms about major league baseball, not Rocco or the Twins. This is how the game is played in the regular AND post seasons.

[TwinsDr2021]

35 minutes ago, Nick Nelson said:

Actually we have evidence to answer that question. Berrios was one of the league leaders in IP when they traded him last year. 

Correct me if I am wrong, but he was averaging that prior to this FO and manager, so reducing the work load of a starting pitcher that you might be trying to sign long term isn't a selling point is it? I am not sure one pitcher is much evidence, but I hoping you are correct.

[old nurse]

2 hours ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

Donaldson?

He is OPS is at nearly .800. He warmed up in the month of May, so yes Donaldson

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

So the question becomes will he/they adapt when the pitchers get better? or not, and I guess that is a faith based question.  I tend to believe what him and the Twins are asking from their pitchers at all levels leaves me to believe they might not ever change what they are asking.

I am not a fan of Rocco and I haven't been since the 2019 season, but I respect how he has managed the Twins so far this year to a record that was required if they wanted to complete for the postseason against the competition they have faced so far and with all the injuries. Will it hold, I sure hope so, I am skeptical but optimistic.

I'm actually not that big of a fan of Baldelli, either, though I think he's very smart. I don't understand some of his decision making in the past but think he has been better this season.

As for the rotation, last season the Brewers had one of the best (if not the best) rotation in baseball while the Twins had one of the worst (if not the worst) rotation in baseball.

Over the course of the entire 2021 season, Brewers starters pitched only 85 more innings than Twins starters. That's half an inning a game when we're talking about potentially the best rotation versus potentially the worst rotation.

This is just how baseball is now, the Twins and Baldelli are in lock-step with most smart teams on this and the Brewers are absolutely a smart team.

[chpettit19]

23 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but he was averaging that prior to this FO and manager, so reducing the work load of a starting pitcher that you might be trying to sign long term isn't a selling point is it? I am not sure one pitcher is much evidence, but I hoping you are correct.

Joe Ryan is at 37.2 innings in 7 starts this year. As the only Twins arm to make all his starts he's the best comparison we have right now. League leaders are at about 50 innings in 8 starts. Verlander leads guys with 7 starts at 45.2 innings. So Ryan is about an inning per start behind the top guy. But he has 4 starts of either 6 or 7 innings which certainly suggests they're willing to let him go when he's on.

[old nurse]

1 hour ago, Blyleven2011 said:

Was he deserving of the manager of the year in 2019 ,, 

Between Rocco,  cash and boone ....

Boone's yankees  had extensive injuries to their core players and found great depth to win 103 games ... deserving 

Cash had the worst stadium  to play in and one of the lowest payrolls  and great coaching abilities  to be creative in using his players to win 96 games   .... deserving  ....

Rocco's first year as manager and the team performs ,,, BUT most players performed and had career years .... undeserving because he had no experience prior to 2019 to evaluate his tendencies toward coaching , then we saw his real coaching abilities in the playoffs in 2019 and 2020 ,,, he coaches the same as in season as he does in playoffs  and you just can't  do that with the better playoff team ....

Dobnak pitching in front of a bunch of Yankee hecklers instead of odorizzi did not make sense and that's not just on Rocco but his FO that he has to follow their plan ...

This is my opinion ,  eye and hearing test , FO and Rocco cannot manage the team , I don't believe the BS  from any of the 3  ,,, they'd make better politicians for all the errors of there ways ....

Baseball was a great game and it's losing its popularity because of the new game of analytics  ,,, 

Why can't we have both in the game , old and new school  baseball 

Odo lost his start, as did Dobnak. End result wouldn’t have changed

Baldelli had Gordon sacrifice the other night. Is that old school enough. The problem with eye tests is the objectivity of the eyes. 

[Trov]

I do not give much weight to single game decisions during a season.  Managers have two important roles.  First, to get a team into the playoffs.  A 162 game season is a grind that requires a manager that knows how to play the long game, sometimes giving up on a single game to save the bullpen in the long run.  

Once a manager makes the playoffs, that is when I will look at moves during the game.  That is because each game matters.  You cannot just take a loss or give away at bats to give guys rest or because it is time to give someone else some playing time.  You play your top line up for each game and manage each game for the win.  

I was too young to really know how Kelly did it in the early years.  However, I was old enough for Gardenhire and hated how he managed in playoffs.  I am personally not a fan of the bullpen games in the playoffs.  They can work, but if you have a pitcher that is cruising along and hitters are not doing much, I am not a fan of just pulling a guy because he is facing a third time through. 

First, that is a load stat.  Even more so now that kind of because a self fulfilling stat.  We find that a third time through a rotation normally is when guys start to struggle.  Yes, that is true overall, but when you only get to face a couple of guys a third time now a days if they do give up a hit, it will be hard to get those numbers back down.  In the regular season I am not too upset at those decision, but in the playoffs when each inning is important I am not a fan of pulling a guy after 4 or 5 innings just because they made it 2 times through order.  As long as they still look good let them go out there.  Maybe I am wrong and the Rocco way will work in playoffs.  

Overall I like him as a manager, but with the lack of power this year, I would love to see more base stealing. 

[Doctor Gast]

Although I haven't been impressed with Tingler yet.  But he has freed up Baldelli to better manage the team by taking care of the small stuff. I did really like the way he manage the team last night for all the reasons that you stated, Nick. There is some things I'd do differently like not batting Garlick 3rd but that those things are minor which really wouldn't factor into this game. There are some things that I don't like about Baldelli which some people agree with and vise versa. Although there are better managers out there but how many are available?

[Vanimal46]

Dropping in to say I enjoy the jab at SkorNorth in the OP. They’re a group of hacks that manufacture outrage and ridiculous takes. 

[Rosterman]

Jeez. Polanco batting cleanup? At least Kepler has only led off once this season, I believe.

Of course, with this "new" baseball, still trying to figure out the roles of the pitching staff. Looks like bullpen arms will be asked to go a minimum of two innings in msot cases since starters can't do five innings, and even the 100 pitch count is not being pushed (okay, short spring training et al, but.....)

When Ober returns, will we be without WInder in the rotation? Can we run with an opener, at least, for Archer, so maybe he can start facing the bottom of the order and do that three times?

I wait for Larnach to return and see what happens in the outfield. The good news is that if Buxton needs to DH, we have Celestino in centerfield. The bad news is where to play Lewis and Arraez. I wish we could send Miranda down to St. Paul for a few weeks just to work things out there, play first base there. Can we designate for assignment Garlick and bring up Curtis Terry, by chance, just for the first base heck of it. (And heaven forbid, what happens IF and WHEN Sano returns).

I will always shake my head at Rocco's batting order. But right now sit patiently until we get Larnach and Correa back.

Happ-maker! Ha! I'm hoping we aren't seeing the Bund-Arch as a rerun of last season! When the rookies (Smeltzer, WInder) can pitch longer and better than the vets...ugh!

[Scott51104]

4 hours ago, Riverbrian said:

I like Music but I don't like the opera. I don't speak Italian, so the opera makes no sense to me. 

If I understood the opera... I might like it better because I do like Music. 

People tend to hate what they don't understand. 

If I make no attempt to better my understanding of the opera... my viewpoint will never change. 

 

I understand there is a way to know when the opera is finished.

[Brock Beauchamp]

20 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Dropping in to say I enjoy the jab at SkorNorth in the OP. They’re a group of hacks that manufacture outrage and ridiculous takes. 

Hey, let’s be fair here. There were *two* jabs at them in the article. 

[Doctor Gast]

3 hours ago, beckmt said:

To me the way Rocco is using his bullpen is scary, it works well now, but will it work well when the overused pen starts to flame out later in the year.  Unless management plan is 

1. Alacla will be back

2. the rookies starters in Wichita will be in the pen later in the year. 

 

Both require faith.  This team could still fall apart quickly later in the year.  Good thing is the hitting is not at where it probably wind up.  But the only effect the manager will have is on bullpen usage.  And that scares me.  

Finally some one who can see this, too. I posted a thread "Twins are a great team! But..........?" https://twinsdaily.com/forums/topic/56261-twins-are-a-great-team-but/#comment-1129395 and nobody commented on it and it went throw the system like diarrhea.

Using 4+ short RPs/ game is working great now but will that philosophy work throughout the season into the post season? As far as I can see overusing certain short RPs hasn't worked yet, the BP blows up and in turn the rotation and the team does. This is where I'd like Baldelli to adjust 

 

[adorduan]

4 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

Since taking over Brewer Fanatic, I've learned and interesting tidbit: they like their manager. The majority of the fanbase refers to Counsell as smart, savvy, and a bunch of other superlatives.

The thing is that the managing style and tacts of Craig Counsell and Rocco Baldelli are basically indistinguishable.

Well, his team has actually won a playoff series, so there is that....

[Squirrel]

2 hours ago, Dman said:

I have never seen so many comments from players about the the good vibes in the club house.  He must be doing something right.

Yeah ... this is something I've noticed this year, too. From the pitchers forming a 'team within a team' to Buxton being so animated to, well, everyone ... there just seems to be a whole different feel. If Rocco has cultivated that, that's a really great attribute. But, then again, there is no 'I' in team. These things tend to happen because of 1) good leadership, 2) good communication, and 3) the 'right' mix. The clubhouse I don't think can be totally attributed to Rocco, but he is certain a big part of 1 and 2.

[LastOnePicked]

4 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

The thing is that the managing style and tacts of Craig Counsell and Rocco Baldelli are basically indistinguishable.

The postseason W drought is having an impact here, I think. It does on me as well.

[Tim]

Nice work getting that really necessary cheap shot at skor north in there. Legitimately no reason to hate on someone else's well formed article and startup sports media platform because their opinion doesn't align with yours. 

Im saying this while also acknowledging you too have a nice write up. There is no right or wrong answer to what side you are on when it comes to this topic.

[Monticore]

The only one I ever "hated" was Gardenhire. I didn't like the fact that he kept a picture of Steinbrenner in his office, and that with several excellent teams - he never won spit. And, he seemed thick. TK wasn't Immanuel Kant, either, but he was a very canny baseball manager, and got his teams ready for the playoffs. Wouldve preferred they had retained Molitor.

[Buffy the Twins Fan]

This is a fantastic article. Baldelli has posted an absurd 231-189 record during his tenure as a Twins manager, and has had to navigate several challenges: the growing pains of the Falvey/Levine era (i.e. like Nick says, the signings of Happ and Shoemaker), injuries to star players, and a franchise that is decidedly mid-market. While I think it's valid to critique some of his in-game decisions, it's reductive to limit one's evaluation of a manager to these decisions alone. In addition to some of his solid, in-game strategic calls, Baldelli's intangible qualities are what stand out to me the most. The Twins seem to have a remarkably healthy clubhouse culture, and in a game like baseball, which is premised on alertness, instinctual reaction, and communication, I think team chemistry and a healthy mindset are especially important for player success. The fact that Buxton WANTED to stay in Minnesota (and was willing to reduce the magnitude of his contract to get it done!) cannot be overstated. That's a franchise-altering decision, and I can't imagine it getting done if Buxton didn't enjoy playing for Rocco. And the fact that Carlos Correa - within just a few weeks of being here!! - expressed openness to a longer-term contract is testament to the player-friendly and supportive clubhouse culture that has been nurtured. Rocco is special, and I'm so grateful he's our guy!!

 

[Blyleven2011]

1 hour ago, old nurse said:

Odo lost his start, as did Dobnak. End result wouldn’t have changed

Baldelli had Gordon sacrifice the other night. Is that old school enough. The problem with eye tests is the objectivity of the eyes. 

The dobnak and odorizzi was a statement  of sending a rookie out there in front of the worst hecklers  of a visiting team  , 

Experience still would have been my choice with odorizzi  but they claimed odorizzi had a winning record at target field  and he did pitch fairly well  .... but we went 3 and out .

1 bunt , hurray  ,,  

How about  stealing bases , hit and run  , situational hitting with runners on base  ,,, or 2 strikes and batters making adjustments ,,,,  see arreaz for adjustments  , bats like gwynn and hits like carew , love that major leaguer 

Catchers aren't as good as they once were at throwing out base stealers , when we have trouble scoring runs , steal bases and get runners in scoring position  

I love the homerun that is a game changer but not the solo  homers that almost never won the game ...

 

A complete 180 degree change in the way baseball is played  sucks  , but I'm still a follower of the twins and   of all baseball teams ..

i live for opening day and the world series and everything in between  ...

You don't have to be a follower to be successful and stop executing the way baseball was intended to be played  ,,,

Watch other teams  manager's manage in game decisions and strategy  ,,,

this was a discussion of our manager

[Craig Arko]

20 minutes ago, Monticore said:

The only one I ever "hated" was Gardenhire. I didn't like the fact that he kept a picture of Steinbrenner in his office, and that with several excellent teams - he never won spit. And, he seemed thick. TK wasn't Immanuel Kant, either, but he was a very canny baseball manager, and got his teams ready for the playoffs. Wouldve preferred they had retained Molitor.

I’d say TK was more like Schopenhauer.

[Tim]

2 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Joe Ryan is at 37.2 innings in 7 starts this year. As the only Twins arm to make all his starts he's the best comparison we have right now. League leaders are at about 50 innings in 8 starts. Verlander leads guys with 7 starts at 45.2 innings. So Ryan is about an inning per start behind the top guy. But he has 4 starts of either 6 or 7 innings which certainly suggests they're willing to let him go when he's on.

He also hasn't pitched more than 123.2 innings in his professional career. and that was 4 years ago. and we had a late spring training to prep for 30 starts.

They will get to a point where he will be let go and eat more innings.

[TheLeviathan]

Managers are irrelevant.  Baldelli seems fine at his meaningless job.

That said....the bullpen has been elite under this coaching staff (note the usual complainers not eating crow yet)...but I am worried we are burning them out early and could pay for it in August.  Not Rocco's fault per se....but a concern.

[KirbyDome89]

10 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Managers are irrelevant.  Baldelli seems fine at his meaningless job.

Yes. Yes. I'll add this article to that list of meaningless things as well.

The irony of calling out a media group that manufactures ridiculous takes, in an article that will undoubtedly do the same thing seems to be lost here. Don't feed them people. Easier said than done at times, I get it, but we're circling the drain with this one.

If this is a user submitted thread it's instalocked. 

[chaderic20]

Not sure there's any way to confirm or refute this, but I think it's worth pointing out that Rocco's worst season was the one where he had no official bench coach. I think having that second-in-command to bounce things off of, keep you in check, be an extra set of eyes and ears, and handle the little things may be more important than we realize.

[RpR]

IF he beats the Yankees, he is deserving; if not, same old, same old.

[Schmoeman5]

OK. So he was manager of the year in 2019 when the Twins clobbered 300+ homers. That was the worst thing that could happen. They get to the playoffs and run into much better pitching and go out with a whimper. 2020, same thing in a Covid short season. 2021 the wheels fall off. If the Twins are such an analytical team and Baldelli is part of that, why isn't the emphasis more on OB% vs slugging. They have guys who simply can't or won't adapt to the shift so it's all or nothing. You have a high OBP and sprinkle in a homerun here and there and you'll score a lot more runs. Pitching is even worse. He gets 4 or 5 innings out of starters and then it's bullpen by committee. That's fine if you have 8 or 9 guys who are lights out every other day. So even though this isn't all on Baldelli, it's an organizational approach so the blame is all around. But there are in game moments where he leaves something to be desired. Especially close games. I don't think he's a bad manager, but I also don't think he's a real good one either. He tows the line that's drawn out for him.

[chpettit19]

11 minutes ago, Schmoeman5 said:

OK. So he was manager of the year in 2019 when the Twins clobbered 300+ homers. That was the worst thing that could happen. They get to the playoffs and run into much better pitching and go out with a whimper. 2020, same thing in a Covid short season. 2021 the wheels fall off. If the Twins are such an analytical team and Baldelli is part of that, why isn't the emphasis more on OB% vs slugging. They have guys who simply can't or won't adapt to the shift so it's all or nothing. You have a high OBP and sprinkle in a homerun here and there and you'll score a lot more runs. Pitching is even worse. He gets 4 or 5 innings out of starters and then it's bullpen by committee. That's fine if you have 8 or 9 guys who are lights out every other day. So even though this isn't all on Baldelli, it's an organizational approach so the blame is all around. But there are in game moments where he leaves something to be desired. Especially close games. I don't think he's a bad manager, but I also don't think he's a real good one either. He tows the line that's drawn out for him.

Here's the pitching info since Rocco took over: From 2019 to today MIN has the 10th most pitching fWAR in baseball. So even with the disaster of 2021 they're top 10 in all of baseball. If we just use 2019 and 2020, you know, when HRs saved Rocco, they were 2nd in all of baseball. They're 8th in baseball in WPA since 2019. Since 2019 they're 3rd in WPA for relievers. That sounds like a pitching strategy that is working awfully well.

Here's the OBP vs SLG numbers since Rocco took over: OBP .324 good for 8th in all of baseball. SLG .450 good for 3rd in all of baseball. wRC+ 108 good for 4th in all of baseball. Runs scored 2077 good for 6th in all of baseball. There's a little room for improvement in the OBP, but they're not exactly struggling to get on base.

What's really clouding things is the continuation of the playoff game losing streak. If people want to blame Rocco for those loses that's one thing, but the stats don't match up with the rest of the narrative about him or this team since he took over. They're getting on base plenty and scoring plenty of runs during the regular season. They're pitching plenty well and getting incredible performances out of their pen during the regular season.