Rocco Baldelli Regaining 'Manager of the Year' Form, to the Dismay of Haters

[Squirrel]

2 minutes ago, Dave The Dastardly said:

Rocco's belief in the mythical "100 pitches" and now the "third time through the batting order" schtick vex us old-timers and some of his batting line-ups defy all baseball logic even for the young-timers. I don't like any of those things. Doesn't mean I hate the man.

But this isn’t just a Rocco thing. This is the modern-day baseball thing. If not Rocco, it would be someone else doing the exact same thing. You and everyone who doesn’t like how the sport is going these days seems to have put this dislike in the man. While I agree that hate is a strong word, and as I said, not one I’d use here, I a,so think this massive dislike toward Rocco is also misguided and a tad irrational.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

I like Rocco's style of management. Laid back, praises the players when appropriate and does not publicly throw anyone under the bus. Articulate. Good manners. Minnesota nice. Rocco has much more info upon which to base his decisions than we do. Some of this info cannot be shared out of loyalty to the particular player or the coach involved and some info cannot be shared because it would give the opposing teams information they could use against the Twins in a game. Through experiences in my life, I have come to admire the man in the arena. Theodore Roosevelt wrote: "It is not the critic who counts; it is not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes up short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming. " Rocco is the leader on the field and in the clubhouse for the Minnesota Twins, my favorite team from even before the Senators moved to Minnesota.  I admire his persistent efforts to help my all-time favorite sports team achieve goals which we dream about. 

[Seth Stohs]

1 hour ago, mikelink45 said:

I see this an an article to stir up your readers and based on the comments it is working.  I am not a fan of Rocco's but I don't hate him either.  In this new era of analytics I do not know how to judge managers.  We are the only division in the AL with only one team (Twins) above 500 - the NL East is the only division in their league.  The soft schedule has to be considered, but good for the Twins taking advantage of this.

Rocco's tendency to pull the starter in less than five will never sit well for me, the Ryan game was great - he trusted his starter, but we still need to get more innings from the SP.  They pitch once every six games.  The RP are being used at such a rate that my fear is end of the year (and post season) burn out.  We need to save those arms too.  Giving players a day off is understandable, but not having them available for a pinch hit is not.  

However, I still want to know what all those coaches are doing and what does a bench coach and an assistant bench coach do?   How do we judge them?    How do we judge any of them.  The FO and the Manager are out front, but when I see this list - go to the link - I really do wonder how decisions are made and what they all do.  Nick, you are the person to unravel this complex skein of coaching threads for us.  

Why would we, as fans, need to judge coaches? We don't see what they do? They often go un-talked-about. A coach can be great, technically knowledgeable, great communicator, patient, all those things, and the player still isn't guaranteed to find success.  So, the only thing that really matters is the opinion of the coaching staff and the players. 

Rocco is a very good manager of people. He's created a very good culture in the clubhouse, players appreciate him, coaches like working with him, the communication is great. That's about what he can control. 

I don't think Nick is necessarily saying that he should win the Manager of the Year award> I think he's mostly just saying that he is a good manager, not the terrible, awful manager that so many people seem to think. I think he's done a great job at the things in the previous paragraph. I think he's been great with the bullpen. Agree or not, his managing of injuries and days off is something that is appreciated by the players. He treats them like people, not like things to be used. 

Lots talking about the schedule. First, you can only play the games that you're scheduled to play. Second, I think we can all agree that the Astros, probably the Yankees, and teams like the Dodgers are the class of baseball. Did anyone think that after last season the Twins would suddenly jump to being the top team in baseball? No. But, for them to be right there in that next tier, maybe in that 8-12 range in terms of rankings among the 30 teams, is a big step forward. 

Whether he wins the award again... who cares? Rocco is the right guy for this team... in my opinion. 

[beckmt]

To me the way Rocco is using his bullpen is scary, it works well now, but will it work well when the overused pen starts to flame out later in the year.  Unless management plan is 

1. Alacla will be back

2. the rookies starters in Wichita will be in the pen later in the year. 

 

Both require faith.  This team could still fall apart quickly later in the year.  Good thing is the hitting is not at where it probably wind up.  But the only effect the manager will have is on bullpen usage.  And that scares me.  

[shortround81]

1 hour ago, mikelink45 said:

I see this an an article to stir up your readers and based on the comments it is working. 

Yeah, I'm seeing a lot of unfamiliar names. Hey, people can jump into the comment sections as frequently or infrequently as they want. This topic in particular seems a little like, "I'm jumping on the Hate Train. Who's coming with me?"

 

[stringer bell]

My opinions about Baldelli--1) "Player's Manager"--The first two years here, Rocco had players older than he was. He is as connected to today's players as any MLB manager. He doesn't publicly berate his players and routinely gives players days off, tries not to overextend key bullpen arms and makes some BP voluntary. Most players welcome being treated in this manner, I think. Some might take advantage in some way. 2) Big Picture--Today's game is important, but having the squad have a chance to win games in postseason is more important. Two instances of resting star players have been controversial, but Baldelli would not use Correa in a game against the White Sox and Buxton in a game vs. Cleveland. Rocco and Wes seem determined to limit innings for most of the starting staff, while at the same time, trying to keep the bullpen stocked with available arms. It's tricky, but so far the results have been excellent. The big picture philosophy also shows in use of the Injured List. Better to be careful with a player and let them heal as opposed to playing through an injury that results in missing a large portion of the season. Of course, this is not the case for Byron Buxton, who is being frequently rested and used as a DH in an attempt to get him through a knee injury. 3) Analytics etc.--Baldelli has been accused of being a slave to analytics--refusing to let a pitcher face a lineup for the third time, shifting, changing the lineup on a near daily basis as well as not using small-ball tools like bunts and stolen bases. I think analytics are helpful in deciding when a pitcher should be taken out. Baldelli goes with percentages and tendencies and most often he is right. 

I think Rocco Baldelli is a good fit for the MInnesota Twins this year and probably going forward. Manager of the Year? It's way to early to even speculate. 

[In My La Z boy]

I think it is fair to say, and ok to say, Rocco has improved - particularly with managing the bullpen. I also think Rocco, and this front office have learned how to better work together - giving each other what each other needs, working off the same page, properly aligning the whole system, pointing towards the same goals with the same processes. I feel much better about the coaching staff they've surrounded Rocco with this year, and our player development is beginning to show up in the results. We're coming as an organization is my take.

[TwinsDr2021]

53 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

The thing is that the managing style and tacts of Craig Counsell and Rocco Baldelli are basically indistinguishable.

Are we sure that is true? Not saying it isn't, but it does seem the Brewers starting pitchers average more innings?

The Brewers also seem to have a different bullpen strategy, maybe that is because they have starters that can go longer, or just better pitchers. Not sure

I have quite a bit of family in Wisconsin and my companies head quarters are located there, and I do agree the Brewer fans seem to really like Counsell. And granted limited sample, most of the people I asked this morning, said they liked him because the games are enjoyable to watch with a combo of new age and old school baseball.

Again small sample but most of my friends and MN co-workers find that if the Twins aren't hitting home runs their brand of baseball is boring to watch, maybe that is the difference?

[Riverbrian]

45 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

You know, you just used the wrong analogy with me around. But I won’t derail the thread talking about opera. ?

Non capisco cosa stanno dicendo. ?

Buddy Holly Fans probably won't get past the spelling of "The Weeknd" long enough to give "Blinding Lights" a chance. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 minute ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

Are we sure that is true? Not saying it isn't, but it does seem the Brewers starting pitchers average more innings?

The Brewers also seem to have a different bullpen strategy, maybe that is because they have starters that can go longer, or just better pitchers. Not sure

I have quite a bit of family in Wisconsin and my companies head quarters are located there, and I do agree the Brewer fans seem to really like Counsell. And granted limited sample, most of the people I asked this morning, said they liked him because the games are enjoyable to watch with a combo of new age and old school baseball.

Again small sample but most of my friends and MN co-workers find that if the Twins aren't hitting home runs their brand of baseball is boring to watch, maybe that is the difference?

The Brewers rotation is vastly superior to the Twins. That's why their starters go longer. The Twins' rotation would have many more innings logged if they had Burnes, Woodruff, Houser, and Lauer in it, too.

As for the bullpen, the only noticeable difference is the closer, as Hader is a strict one-inning reliever. But that's not surprising, as Hader has a pretty steep drop-off after one inning and he's literally the best one-inning reliever in baseball so that approach makes a ton of sense. The Twins do not have Josh Hader.

[Squirrel]

7 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Non capisco cosa stanno dicendo. ?

Buddy Holly Fans probably won't get past the spelling of "The Weeknd" long enough to give "Blinding Lights" a chance. 

It's a pity, then, that things aren't approached more open-mindedly instead of instantly disliking the unknown  (And that goes for a lot of things, not just opera.)

[Riverbrian]

52 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

 

 

I also think this article's headline would be better if it was 5 words shorter.

Rocco Baldelli Regaining 'Manager of the Year' Form, to the Dismay of Haters

Rocco Baldelli Regaining Year Form the Dismay of Haters?

Rocco Baldelli of the, to the dismay of? 

Rocco Baldelli Regaining of year to dismay haters? 

I'll finish working on this after I finish reading the front page and obits. 

[KFEY93]

Yeah okay Nick, you like Rocco, we get it. Its okay if others don't. This screams brainwashed homer calling people "Doomers" for not liking everything about the current team. If I wanted that I would sit on the cult site that is the Twins subreddit.

[Craig Arko]

Just now, Riverbrian said:

Rocco Baldelli Regaining 'Manager of the Year' Form, to the Dismay of Haters

Rocco Baldelli Regaining Year Form the Dismay of Haters?

Rocco Baldelli of the, to the dismay of? 

Rocco Baldelli Regaining of year to dismay haters? 

I'll finish working on this after I finish reading the front page and obits. 

Rocco’s a lumberjack and that’s okay.

[RJA]

Like all managers, Rocco has strengths and weaknesses, but people tend to overreact when things are going badly and when things are going well.  I think his relationship with players is extraordinary, and players hustle for him.  His game management is not top 10 in baseball, but he is a young manager who will get better, and I think he is improving.  But, it is way too early to evaluate him this year.  My biggest concern this year is his bullpen usage.  Right now Smith, Thielbar, Duffey, Pagan, and Duran are all looking like they will be making 60-70 appearances this year.  I know starters may begin going deeper into games, but I think it does raise concerns about the stalwarts holding up for a full season.  Let's have this discussion later in the summer.

[nicksaviking]

I think most of the criticisms of Rocco and most managers these days, tend to be based on overall criticisms of the game. A hard cap on 100 pitches and pulling starters early, resting players, shifts, emphasizing home runs, devaluing stolen bases, not bunting. Whatever else people don't like about today's game. 

Rocco didn't invent these tactics, and since this is 2022, he probably wouldn't be given a chance to manage at all if he didn't incorporate those tactics.

 

[TwinsDr2021]

33 minutes ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

The Brewers rotation is vastly superior to the Twins. That's why their starters go longer. The Twins' rotation would have many more innings logged if they had Burnes, Woodruff, Houser, and Lauer in it, too.

As for the bullpen, the only noticeable difference is the closer, as Hader is a strict one-inning reliever. But that's not surprising, as Hader has a pretty steep drop-off after one inning and he's literally the best one-inning reliever in baseball so that approach makes a ton of sense. The Twins do not have Josh Hader.

So the question becomes will he/they adapt when the pitchers get better? or not, and I guess that is a faith based question.  I tend to believe what him and the Twins are asking from their pitchers at all levels leaves me to believe they might not ever change what they are asking.

I am not a fan of Rocco and I haven't been since the 2019 season, but I respect how he has managed the Twins so far this year to a record that was required if they wanted to complete for the postseason against the competition they have faced so far and with all the injuries. Will it hold, I sure hope so, I am skeptical but optimistic.

[Blyleven2011]

Was he deserving of the manager of the year in 2019 ,, 

Between Rocco,  cash and boone ....

Boone's yankees  had extensive injuries to their core players and found great depth to win 103 games ... deserving 

Cash had the worst stadium  to play in and one of the lowest payrolls  and great coaching abilities  to be creative in using his players to win 96 games   .... deserving  ....

Rocco's first year as manager and the team performs ,,, BUT most players performed and had career years .... undeserving because he had no experience prior to 2019 to evaluate his tendencies toward coaching , then we saw his real coaching abilities in the playoffs in 2019 and 2020 ,,, he coaches the same as in season as he does in playoffs  and you just can't  do that with the better playoff team ....

Dobnak pitching in front of a bunch of Yankee hecklers instead of odorizzi did not make sense and that's not just on Rocco but his FO that he has to follow their plan ...

This is my opinion ,  eye and hearing test , FO and Rocco cannot manage the team , I don't believe the BS  from any of the 3  ,,, they'd make better politicians for all the errors of there ways ....

Baseball was a great game and it's losing its popularity because of the new game of analytics  ,,, 

Why can't we have both in the game , old and new school  baseball 

[Karbo]

I think Rocco is probably a very likeable guy and from everything I've read or heard he keeps a great clubhouse atmosphere. As far as his game managing goes, there has been some improvement starting toward mid Aug. of last season IMO. With that being said, I feel there is plenty of room for more improvement, especially in the way he handles the pitching staff. I also would add that he could improve his communication with the fans. I know many people who feel he comes across as kind of aloof or snobish or "I'm the smartest guy in the room".

[Riverbrian]

20 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

It's a pity, then, that things aren't approached more open-mindedly instead of instantly disliking the unknown  (And that goes for a lot of things, not just opera.)

We all know that we are supposed to walk a mile in different shoes first. 

But our own shoes are comfortable once they get all broken in.

It's easier to just say **** that. 

[chpettit19]

Rocco is always a fun topic. My main view on him is that those calling for his head wouldn't be happy with his replacement anyways. Not because those fans would just never be happy with a manager, but because he'd be replaced by someone who would make basically the same decisions. There may be a small difference here or there, but the complaints about short starts and ever changing lineups wouldn't go away with a new manager as those are organizational strategies. Unless Pohlad fires the entire organization and decides to bring back TK and TR this is the new normal for the Twins. So I'd suggest fans who don't like it at least try to educate themselves on it and start to accept it or they're just going to keep being angry. It's not changing anytime soon. (For the record I hate the ever changing lineups and don't get the strategy behind hitting Sanchez in the 3 hole these days)

I haven't seen it posted here yet, but I'm sure we'll see a "if he doesn't have a team hitting 307 HRs to cover up for his mistakes he's terrible!" post eventually. There's always at least one in these threads. They bring me endless joy because it gives me a chance to point out that from 2019 to today MIN has the 10th most pitching fWAR in baseball. So even with the disaster of 2021 they're top 10 in all of baseball. If we just use 2019 and 2020, you know, when HRs saved Rocco, they were 2nd in all of baseball. They're 8th in baseball in WPA since 2019. Since 2019 they're 3rd in WPA for relievers. Seems weird for a team with a manager who has no idea how to manage a pen. They're 15th in starters innings since 2019. Which just goes to show they're not doing anything crazy with their starters. Gleeman mentioned in an article in the last couple days that the average start this year is 4.9 innings and 80 pitches. So I'm pretty sure Rocco, and the FO, aren't just completely off the rails when it comes to pitcher usage.

As I said in the first paragraph, I don't really get the lineup construction sometimes and that they always change things. I'd guess the strategy is to set the lineup up for the best chance to blast the starter and get him out and take their chances after that, but it doesn't seem to be working right now and tends to leave them in tougher spots late in games when you have Gary Sanchez hitting with the game on the line and 2 outs while leaving Polanco standing in the on deck circle. But they have so much more information than we do so I assume it's a quite well educated decision. 

Overall I don't think managers have as much to do with Ws and Ls as fans tend to make it sound by getting so upset about some things. I don't understand all of the decisions made, but I do know firing Rocco means they just get Rocco 2.0 in his spot. I've heard almost universal praise for Rocco and the org from players who have left (Shoemaker being the clear exception). The current players are fans of his usage and giving Buxton rest. I mean Correa had some real strong words about it. I'm not huge on Rocco or the current way the game is played, but I think he's a solid manager who isn't costing the team games by any means.

[Dman]

1 hour ago, Squirrel said:

The thing that always kind of annoys me is what was mentioned in nick’s article … the attitude that Rocco is to blame for the losses, but no credit is given for the wins. While hate is a strong word and not one I’d use here, it would seem to me that the blame/no credit process is about disliking the manager no matter what. If the manager is the only one responsible for the losses, they are responsible for the wins, too. But I don’t really think either is true. I’ve often said that I don’t think the manager affects the outcome all that much. Players who can execute and getting players who can execute … that’s on the players themselves and the FO for assembling the team. The manager today relies on a committee of people to come up with a game plan. This committee does a very good job, from what I can see, at making sure that the players are prepared with that plan. The players then need to execute that plan. 

Yeah your take is pretty much my take.  Players have to execute in order to get wins.  Bundy and other pitchers have said in the past the scouting reports they received are incredibly detailed and the coaches very helpful in their development.  It takes a village to prepare players and win games these days.

That being said there have been head scratching moves made so I get the frustration.  At the end of the day though the manager has to have faith that a player will perform when called upon.  Every player is going to have a bad day at the plate or on the mound.  Not all decision are going to work out.  I think Rocco performs the main function he needs to and that is giving confidence to his players and not blaming players for poor performance but giving them tools to try and get better.  I have never seen so many comments from players about the the good vibes in the club house.  He must be doing something right.

[Nick Nelson]

1 hour ago, Mark G said:

And Molitor won it two years before Rocco, and was fired for finishing 78-84 the next year.  As for this year, yes, it was a very outlandish suggestion.  But you are entitled to it.    

Look I'm not saying the award is all that meaningful, or that anyone's a lock for anything as of May 17th. But MOTY tends to go to the guy managing the team that beats expectations most, and right now the Twins are at the head of that discussion. 

[Nick Nelson]

33 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

So the question becomes will he/they adapt when the pitchers get better? or not, and I guess that is a faith based question.  I tend to believe what him and the Twins are asking from their pitchers at all levels leaves me to believe they might not ever change what they are asking.

Actually we have evidence to answer that question. Berrios was one of the league leaders in IP when they traded him last year. 

[laloesch]

1 hour ago, Dave The Dastardly said:

Hate is a pretty strong word. "Dislike" or "confusion" over some of Rocco's decisions might be more appropriate. Rocco's belief in the mythical "100 pitches" and now the "third time through the batting order" schtick vex us old-timers and some of his batting line-ups defy all baseball logic even for the young-timers. I don't like any of those things. Doesn't mean I hate the man.

As far as Manager of the Year, bring that up after the All-Popular (Star) game and let's see where the Twins are in the standings. I hope they're on top, or at least in contention. If they are I will have less dislike for Rocco's methods.

Agreed.  It always amazes me that people push one another into different camps if you don't agree with them and this article does that to a tee.  If you are not 100% behind Baldelli being manager of the year and a fantastic manager you "are a hater," lol.  Talk about labeling.  The author goes even further making nebulous statements about a large portion of the fan base this, fan base that, because they don't totally buy into the homer hype of Baldelli.  That happens all the time in sports franchises and is not unique to the Twins.  We saw this with Tom Kelly, Ron Gardenhire, etc., and for good reason.  It's not unique and it's called freedom of thoughts and ideas.  Once you shut down alternative ideas and perspectives because you don't agree with them you are boxing yourself in and shutting off constructive feedback that could actually help the team, and that's when things stagnate.  We as fans should know this from the Gardenhire era.  Sure the Twins won several division titles, but they stagnated and never made any headway in the playoffs because they stopped improving and got complacent.  I as a fan want the Twins to win World Series and if that means showing the manager tough love because he CAN improve i will.  And for the record i think Baldelli is a decent manager, but he's still quite young and has room for improvement.  My two cents and no author is going to shut me down by calling me or anyone else "a hater" for having a different perspective.          

[laloesch]

33 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

Rocco is always a fun topic. My main view on him is that those calling for his head wouldn't be happy with his replacement anyways. Not because those fans would just never be happy with a manager, but because he'd be replaced by someone who would make basically the same decisions. There may be a small difference here or there, but the complaints about short starts and ever changing lineups wouldn't go away with a new manager as those are organizational strategies. Unless Pohlad fires the entire organization and decides to bring back TK and TR this is the new normal for the Twins. So I'd suggest fans who don't like it at least try to educate themselves on it and start to accept it or they're just going to keep being angry. It's not changing anytime soon. ed decision. 

 

Who is currently calling for Baldelli's head as manager?  I'm not seeing it.  And it's perfectly legit to "complain" about a strategy that is not conducive to playoff success.  A team might be able to consistently get away with short starts during the regular season, but in the playoffs that doesn't work against stronger teams and effectively wears down the pen.  It is a valid criticism.

[nicksaviking]

43 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

So the question becomes will he/they adapt when the pitchers get better? 

Honestly, that's probably not Rocco's call. Same with resting Buxton and other players. How many pitches and innings the starters go is probably a collaborative organizational decision.

[chpettit19]

6 minutes ago, laloesch said:

Who is currently calling for Baldelli's head as manager?  I'm not seeing it.

In this thread? Don't know that I've seen a specific call for that here. In general? Happens pretty near everyday in game threads on TD and all over Twitter, etc. literally everyday.

[rv78]

I find it quite ironic that an article like this comes out after the Twins win and the players performed making it look like Rocco made all the right moves. Would it have made the column if Gordon wouldn't have executed the bunt? Or Cano imploded? Or Duffey would have blown the 9th. How many times has Rocco asked anyone to bunt before last night? I don't remember one, but now he's a genius? How many times has he wasted a pitcher on any given night by having them throw 2 , 4 or 5 pitches and then goes to someone else the next inning? A Lot! Easy part of the schedule right now followed by a run against the best of the Eastern division. Well see how great Rocco is when his team plays against the best. So far he's hasn't looked any thing like a MOTY against the them, (Dodgers & Astros).

[CRF]

It doesn't matter what sport, or what team, there's always going to people who don't like the coach/manager...and there's always going to be people who do like the coach/manager. That's a given and it comes with the territory. Depending on the players and how a team is constructed, the same coach/manager could be a lights out genius for one team...or a crash and burn idiot with another. How many times have we all seen that? Surround the guy/gal with quality players, and they'll probably do very well. Surround them with stiffs, and they'll probably fail miserably. We seem to be in the middle there somewhere. We're not great, but we're not total crap either. Would it be nice to win some playoff games and go to another WS? Hell yeah it would. Is it going to happen anytime soon? More than likely, no. A lot of things would have to break our way for that to happen. I don't think Rocco is going to single handedly get us there either. I think Rocco is a work in progress. He's still learning how to do this job. He didn't go through the minors managing here and there, gaining experience. He's not "old school" by any means. He's not a whole lot older than a lot of active players. He's definitely "new school". Do I agree with some of the decisions he makes? Nope, not at all. I think he tends to lean too much on those nice little pieces of paper he has in front of him, instead of what I would call gut instinct, or even common sense. Maybe that's good, maybe not. I'm not smart enough to figure all of it out. I am willing to give him some time to see what happens, and what he develops into. He seems to have a pretty good relationship with his players/team, and that's a plus. You don't hear anyone on the team griping and second guessing him...that's our job. I'd see what happens this season and probably next too. Maybe the choice will be a lot clearer by then. Maybe Fal-Vine will decide that Rocco needs to go bye bye? Who knows? I don't know that there's better choices out there to bring in here anyway.