Veteran Pitching Leading Twins Success

[Marshall_P]

 

   After starting the season as cold and unpredictable as the Minnesota weather with two series losses, and two series splits, the Twins have sprung into spring and first place winning 10 of their last 11 games.

   Just as the Twin Cities weather is heating up, the arms of the Minnesota pitchers are following suit, allowing over four runs just once during their current tear, and completing two shutouts along with four games surrendering just one run.

   The early season rust appears to be knocked off, and the pitchers are hitting their marks like arrows flung from a skilled archer.

    Pitching coach Wes Anderson and manager Rocco Baldelli are known for their extensive analytical preparation for opposing lineups, however the intangibles from the veteran pitchers is also playing a huge role in the recent success.

   The leadership from 10-year vets Sonny Gray (82 career wins) and Chris Archer (61 career wins) has been evident in the dugout recently, as the former aces have regularly been seen in the dugout shoulder to shoulder with the younger pitchers, teaching their knowledge of the art of pitching.

   It certainly appears that their instruction and willingness to be mentors has made a great impact on the Twins success recently.

   This is what winning teams do. This is also what makes baseball America’s Pastime.

    Whether it is teaching your kid how to throw a changeup at little league practice, or older professionals leading the younger generation to success, baseball is relatable to everyone who has ever played the game.

    As the Twins storm into May with a 14-9 record, and 3.5 games above Cleveland in the standings atop the American League Central division, the long term goal of playing past the summer and into the playoffs is falling into place.

[Doctor Gast]

Total agreement with you, Marshall. With a young core of pitchers, mentorship of Gray & Archer is invaluable. Their knowledge and stability of their presences really help rookie pitchers plus the chemistry they add. We are so fortunate to have these 2 who are so willing to mentor them. As these younger players gain positive experiences, they will be so much ready to face the post season. W/O these 2, I can't help but imagine how bad things could turn out. 

[Linus]

You mean the Sonny Gray who got here at the end of spring training and has spent time in fort Myers’s on a rehab start?  Sorry for the snark but this the oldest angle in the book. We have no idea if they make any difference at all. 

[Squirrel]

46 minutes ago, Linus said:

You mean the Sonny Gray who got here at the end of spring training and has spent time in fort Myers’s on a rehab start?  Sorry for the snark but this the oldest angle in the book. We have no idea if they make any difference at all. 

I sort of agree, but I sort of don't. All the starting pitchers have mentioned in interviews how they have been kind of their own team within a team, watching each other's bullpen sessions, all open to suggestions and questions, and whatnot. All of them have mentioned this cohesiveness, this bond among them, boosting each other up and helping each other out. And that it started with Gray. He led this formation as I think he started watching the other pitchers' bp sessions and I think said they should all be watching each others' session. (At least I think I remember reading that or hearing that from somewhere.) So, I do give Gray some 'veteran presence' credit here. When he first got there, it was reported how the young pitchers gravitated toward him, to watch him, and watch his process. But, it's impossible to quantify the effect, but I think it has made a difference. But ... the season is yet young. We'll see come August/September how things are still going.

[Linus]

32 minutes ago, Squirrel said:

I sort of agree, but I sort of don't. All the starting pitchers have mentioned in interviews how they have been kind of their own team within a team, watching each other's bullpen sessions, all open to suggestions and questions, and whatnot. All of them have mentioned this cohesiveness, this bond among them, boosting each other up and helping each other out. And that it started with Gray. He led this formation as I think he started watching the other pitchers' bp sessions and I think said they should all be watching each others' session. (At least I think I remember reading that or hearing that from somewhere.) So, I do give Gray some 'veteran presence' credit here. When he first got there, it was reported how the young pitchers gravitated toward him, to watch him, and watch his process. But, it's impossible to quantify the effect, but I think it has made a difference. But ... the season is yet young. We'll see come August/September how things are still going.

You can literally read this same stuff on every fan website. We had plenty of veteran presence last year. I guess they didn’t share their wisdom. 

[Squirrel]

14 minutes ago, Linus said:

You can literally read this same stuff on every fan website. We had plenty of veteran presence last year. I guess they didn’t share their wisdom. 

That’s why I said I sort of agree and sort of don’t. But, you can’t deny that this group of pitchers has formed a very cohesive group, and that is partly at the insistence of Gray. But they also seem to all get along. Maybe last year they didn’t have the same plan in place. It’s not something you can quantify, and it’s certainly not something that I give all the credit to, but, I do think it’s part of the equation

[RaoulDuke]

Nelson Cruz set the example for vet leadership, look how everyone praised him for it.  Compare that to Donaldson who came with that expectation but never really got credit for doing it outside of talking with Garver.

Finding the right vets that have the attitude and desire to mentor the young guys is super valuable.  I'm sure its a hard thing to find, and acquire, the ones that actually succeed in this but it adds noticeable value.

Gray and Archer seem to have set a great culture into the staff with however they are handling leadership.

[Doctor Gast]

11 hours ago, Linus said:

You can literally read this same stuff on every fan website. We had plenty of veteran presence last year. I guess they didn’t share their wisdom. 

Not every veteran has a positive effect and add chemistry on prospects and rookies. Not all have that comraderie spirit and that willingness to mentor. I don't believe all the BS on the websites but by personal testimony on the effect these veterans have on all the players especially the young ones I definitely believe it.

[Mike Sixel]

12 hours ago, Linus said:

You mean the Sonny Gray who got here at the end of spring training and has spent time in fort Myers’s on a rehab start?  Sorry for the snark but this the oldest angle in the book. We have no idea if they make any difference at all. 

Players think it matters. We see them posting comments (for example, Fangraphs interviews) all the time talking about what they've learned from veterans. (which is different than leadership and culture).

[Rosterman]

I like that the group of starters are getting together EVERY game and talking about how players were approached, and discussing the work of each other. With so much video and analytics, the game has changed.

 

Yet you are still at the mercy of the game. Ryan Tuesday night. Pitching well, but getting bad breaks. Hitting batters. Trying to stay in the groove or get back in the groove. It doesn't take much to lose it for a half inning these game days.

 

The flip side is that with the masive use of the bullpen, a tough situation can be corrected (or oft made worse) by a fresh arm. Smtih getting the double play. Thielbar throwing a strikeout. All is well.

 

And you still need a pitching coach keeping everyone on the same organizational page. 

[nicksaviking]

3 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Players think it matters. We see them posting comments (for example, Fangraphs interviews) all the time talking about what they've learned from veterans. (which is different than leadership and culture).

The "veteran leadership" stuff really has to be a byproduct of fan adoration. Young guys come up and these are known ballplayers. "Holy crap, that's Carlos Correa, that's Sonny Gray! I'm going to act like them."

So in that sense, I can understand why it's better to have professional veterans for the same reason I'd never let my kids take their queues from a Kardashian.

But I never like the idea of the team using veteran players being an extra coach. I don't want to hear a player saying stuff like Archer is teaching him a new grip. The team can hire as many instructors as they want. Who's idea is it for Archer to change a pitcher's grip? Is that something we just want the veteran to up and decide for himself?

[MMMordabito]

The veterans, sans Bundy, have done a good job showing the younger guys what not to do like get hurt (Gray), sign late (Archer), blow leads (Duffey) and just get destroyed and give your team no chance to win (Thielbar).

I state "sans Bundy", because he did have that one game where he gave up four runs in the first inning, but then he proceeded to only give up a couple runs over the next five innings.  It was still a loss, but he chewed up six innings and the bullpen didn't get wasted in the first game of that series.

Wes Anderson can tell you how fantastic Mr. Fox is, but I doubt he'll be able to coach up any of the Twins young pitchers.

[se7799]

59 minutes ago, MMMordabito said:

The veterans, sans Bundy, have done a good job showing the younger guys what not to do like get hurt (Gray), sign late (Archer), blow leads (Duffey) and just get destroyed and give your team no chance to win (Thielbar).

I state "sans Bundy", because he did have that one game where he gave up four runs in the first inning, but then he proceeded to only give up a couple runs over the next five innings.  It was still a loss, but he chewed up six innings and the bullpen didn't get wasted in the first game of that series.

Wes Anderson can tell you how fantastic Mr. Fox is, but I doubt he'll be able to coach up any of the Twins young pitchers.

You have no clue

[4twinsJA]

Seth had good article chemistry leading to success or success causing chemistry. An interesting debate, if you have been watching the young pitchers interviews, they all comment on how the whole staff is working together. They comment on the experienced pitchers and fellow young pitchers working on things together, watching each others bullpen sessions, etc. Ober and Ryan's comments lead me to think things are different this year than last year, working together more and experienced pitchers helping young pitchers. I am not there, but would think that would be lead by the experienced pitchers.

[Mike Sixel]

3 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

The "veteran leadership" stuff really has to be a byproduct of fan adoration. Young guys come up and these are known ballplayers. "Holy crap, that's Carlos Correa, that's Sonny Gray! I'm going to act like them."

So in that sense, I can understand why it's better to have professional veterans for the same reason I'd never let my kids take their queues from a Kardashian.

But I never like the idea of the team using veteran players being an extra coach. I don't want to hear a player saying stuff like Archer is teaching him a new grip. The team can hire as many instructors as they want. Who's idea is it for Archer to change a pitcher's grip? Is that something we just want the veteran to up and decide for himself?

And yet, a new accountant learns from their peers all the time........

[nicksaviking]

6 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

And yet, a new accountant learns from their peers all the time........

If the brain trust specifically tells Chris Archer they would like him to show a new pitcher something that’s great. However, it’s never framed that way. The articles always make it out to be like the vet and the rookie are chilling and the vet takes the initiative to fix the young guy. 
 

 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

19 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

The "veteran leadership" stuff really has to be a byproduct of fan adoration. Young guys come up and these are known ballplayers. "Holy crap, that's Carlos Correa, that's Sonny Gray! I'm going to act like them."

So in that sense, I can understand why it's better to have professional veterans for the same reason I'd never let my kids take their queues from a Kardashian.

But I never like the idea of the team using veteran players being an extra coach. I don't want to hear a player saying stuff like Archer is teaching him a new grip. The team can hire as many instructors as they want. Who's idea is it for Archer to change a pitcher's grip? Is that something we just want the veteran to up and decide for himself?

It takes a village to raise a baseball team. In my own job, I’ve received undergraduate training, graduate training, mentorship using official job program, unofficial mentorship, official training at work, and on the job training from more senior leaders in my organization. And I share my own insights with my colleagues.

in short, we never stop learning and the sources of education are diverse and complex.

I think this topic relates really well to the chemistry topic. Strong team chemistry can also help strengthen the official and unofficial coaching. Having clear communication and strong relationships can only help the finer points of education and training be shared more effectively.

[Squirrel]

15 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

If the brain trust specifically tells Chris Archer they would like him to show a new pitcher something that’s great. However, it’s never framed that way. The articles always make it out to be like the vet and the rookie are chilling and the vet takes the initiative to fix the young guy. 
 

 

In this particular case we’ve heard from multiple pitchers on the team what they’ve been doing and why, and that it was at the suggestion/insistence of Gray. It’s unquantifiable if it’s made a difference either way, and maybe it has nothing to do with him being a ‘veteran presence’; he’s just one guy who had an idea and it seems to be working for this group of pitchers, who seem to have formed a little team within a team. But, as I’ve said here or elsewhere, the season is young, bad nights throw doubt into the mix, let’s wait and see the season through.

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, Richie the Rally Goat said:

It takes a village to raise a baseball team. In my own job, I’ve received undergraduate training, graduate training, mentorship using official job program, unofficial mentorship, official training at work, and on the job training from more senior leaders in my organization. And I share my own insights with my colleagues.

in short, we never stop learning and the sources of education are diverse and complex.

I think this topic relates really well to the chemistry topic. Strong team chemistry can also help strengthen the official and unofficial coaching. Having clear communication and strong relationships can only help the finer points of education and training be shared more effectively.

For sure.

And maybe it's just the difference in industry, but in my job, we have specific processes and methodology we want new hires to follow. When we leave it up to their more experienced peers to do the training, the new hires will almost always be taught how to cut corners, find loopholes and get away with skirting policies and regulations. 

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

For sure.

And maybe it's just the difference in industry, but in my job, we have specific processes and methodology we want new hires to follow. When we leave it up to their more experienced peers to do the training, the new hires will almost always be taught how to cut corners, find loopholes and get away with skirting policies and regulations. 

I think you added the extra word "almost" there.....