Let's Cut Miguel Sanó Some Slack

[Seth Stohs]

1 minute ago, chinmusic said:

Yeah, sure. But other right fielders (like Kepler, who's taller than Grossman) would likely have caught it. The difference between a win and a loss.

Can't base errors because someone else might have caught it. 

[Adam Krueger]

2 hours ago, srlarson said:

Last night was  just one more reason.......has a terrible night at the plate, only getting on because Grossman is a subpar fielder....then in his oblivious state.....makes a terrible base running error...not once but twice.....watch the play.....going first to second.....then trying to push and go to third....this guys head is not in the game.....loads of talent..no discipline.......just want to slap him upside the head to wake him up......

 

To me, this is the real issue...its not the slow starts, its not the strikeouts in big situations...its the overall lack of baseball discipline. The Twins have a lot of talent, but they aren't so talented that they can afford the occasional loaf. They need everyone to to be playing at the top of their capability, all the time. Does that mean every guy needs to hit .300 all the time? No, by no means - but hey, if you're scuffling at the plate, make sure that when you do get on-base, you are making smart decisions on the basepaths, that you're not potentially costing your team runs because you got caught up in the action.

Sano got lucky last night - if that thing doesn't end up working out the way it did, we're all talking about what a lead weight Sano has been all season.

[The_Phantom]

1 hour ago, Dave The Dastardly said:

How come Sano's "hit" wasn't recorded as an error? The ball hit Grossman's glove. Used to be an automatic error in the old days.

Well, it was hit hard, and there was some home-town scoring. I'm not terribly surprised that it was scored a hit, but it really could have gone either way. Either way, a better fielder absolutely would have had it. 

[The_Phantom]

1 hour ago, baul0010 said:

his defensive at first base... Not great either.

He's DH.  If we can make that work with Nelson Cruz we should be able to make it work with Sano.

We also have Sanchez, who will be coming back soon and is a terrible defensive catcher. Sano and Sanchez are pretty redundant honestly. 
 
I don't really unde.226/.154 He can have hard exit velo all he wants but the entire LIST of guys with a lower slugging percentage right now are:
 
Alcides Escobar, Adalberto Mondesi, Brendan Rodgers.
 
That's it. That's the entire list. There's not another play in the major leagues with a lower SLUGGING% than Sano. Add in mediocre (At best) defense, and clueless baserunning like last night.. what is the incentive for keeping him around?
 
To add to why this year is different, besides being worse - he's a potential free agent after this year. He will only be a twin next year if they pick up his $14 million option. Why not just cut the losses now

[chpettit19]

51 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Mostly agree, except I think Sano was well past the point where he could safely get back to first. He was farther from 1st than the 1st baseman.

Totally agree he has to be aware of the runners in front of him. 

I watched the replay a couple times before I commented and it didn't look like the first basemen was really aware of what was happening so I think Sano would've made it back alright, but it certainly may have been close. Either way it was a mistake and both Urshella and Sano need to be much more aware of the situation.

[travkro]

I  always thought he has had trouble recognizing pitches. Have him take vision test ala Ricky Vaughn.

Time to move on from Sano, I've been enamored as many others have with his potential but the Twins can get production from another player in a different way. Kiriloff, Arraez, Miranda, Sanchez, Jeffers. Personally I like Arraez as the option right now. 

[Markdumont25]

3 hours ago, srlarson said:

They need to sit him down for a week to 10 days......

Last night was  just one more reason.......has a terrible night at the plate, only getting on because Grossman is a subpar fielder...

 

Yesterday is a perfect microcosm of what this article is about...He hit 2 balls about as hard as you can hit them yesterday....right at people. I don't want to go overboard in defending Sano because he is often a very frustrating player but last night was not a great example for those of you arguing he is hopeless. And sitting him and prolonging his "warming up" period seems like a terrible idea. If you're not gonna straight up get rid of him (another bad idea imo, at least for now) then you need to just let him play through it.

[PopRiveter]

50 minutes ago, Harrison Greeley III said:

With Sano, I've noticed that for the last few years he often fouls off or misses the biggest meatball of the at-bat in the first month. If only there was a way to have him in AAA till May. I also notice the 'See! I told you you needed to be patient with Sano!' tweets in June seem routine and inevitable at this point. 

For efficiency, I'm going to copy it now so I'm ready to just click 'paste'

?

[chpettit19]

4 minutes ago, travkro said:

I  always thought he has had trouble recognizing pitches. Have him take vision test ala Ricky Vaughn.

Time to move on from Sano, I've been enamored as many others have with his potential but the Twins can get production from another player in a different way. Kiriloff, Arraez, Miranda, Sanchez, Jeffers. Personally I like Arraez as the option right now. 

Is Kirilloff healthy? If not he's not the answer right now.

Is Miranda all that good? He hasn't been great in AAA yet this year and hadn't been good before an out of this world season last year. Suggesting he can replicate what Sano is likely to do over the course of a full season is a big leap of faith.

Sanchez is basically a poor man's Sano so not sure why he'd be the answer.

Jeffers? How does he give you Sano's production in any way (over the course of a full season)?

Arraez would be my 1B or DH everyday. But that doesn't mean moving on from Sano (I read moving on as taking him off the roster) to me. It means making Sano a part time player until things click and he goes on his 2 week heater and carries the offense. 

When Kirilloff comes back I'd make Sano the short end of a platoon at first. Once he seems to be getting things going (that last hit last night was a good sign) I'd give him his 2 weeks as an everyday player while he bashes 12 homeruns in 13 games and wins a handful of games on his own. Then when he falls apart again I bench him unless Miranda has gotten going again and then I'd look to trade or cut him.

I just don't see what cutting Sano now does. Does anyone really doubt he'll go on a crazy tear sometime in the next month or so? He always does. Every year. And the Twins don't have anyone kicking the door down to take his spot in the meantime. I mean Sanchez and Kirilloff have already missed time with injuries. Arraez misses time pretty regularly. Miranda hasn't gotten going yet. The Twins don't have a ready replacement so let him work through it (preferably in a part time role) until he does on his run or until someone takes his spot.

[joefish]

Better days must be ahead because they haven't been with him or behind him.

Hurry up. Kirilloff. 

I have lost faith and patience with Sano.

[MGM4706]

STOP with the Exit Velocity crap! That's always the bail out with Sano. "He struck out 20 times this week but did you see the Exit Velocity on that hit he got Wed?" Ridiculous!

Worst part and every former player Twins announcer like Smalley and Morneau have said it. He refuses to work on using the whole field. Look at Miggy for Detroit: 3000 hits but still over 500 Home Runs. Sano could be same hitter but he doesn't understand that after all this time. Keeps wanting to pull the ball and impress with that darn "Exit Velocity"!!

[Aerodeliria]

1 hour ago, Trov said:

First, I am all for sitting him, cutting him or whatever.  I get the writers point that his numbers should be higher overall, but he had an at bat where he never swung.  So he did not chase or whiff, but he struck out on 3 pitches.  Hard to whiff or chase if you never swing, but hard to get hits too.  

However, I would point out Sano actually did not have a bad base running play, it was Urshella that did.  Why do I say that?  Sano reacted to the throw to plate, he was assuming either a runner was going home or had already.  It is smart to follow the runners in this situation.  Also, there is no 1st baseman behind him so he can get almost to 2nd with no issue of getting back.  He was not going to get into a run down.  Was he thinking this?  Maybe, maybe not.  It was Urshella who took off to third when he should not have.  He should have stayed on 2nd and told Sano to run back to 1st, instead he thinks Sano is forcing him to 3rd and never realizes until he is almost to 3rd that Larnach is standing there.  

Who made the worst decision of them all in this case?  The catcher for Detroit.  Other than the terrible throw, he was not going to get the lead runner out, and tying run in Larnach as he was on 3rd alone.  So maybe he can get Urshella in a run down, and get him out, but that could have left Larnach a path to get home, to at least drawing a throw home.  Yes, getting that 2nd out would have been good for Detroit, but the catcher should have just let the runners return to their bases and play it safe.  Thankfully he tossed the ball to middle of left field letting 2 runs score. 

I think we've inadvertently let someone off the hook here. The ball rolled to the wall so both outfielders had their backs to the infield. Urshela and Sano are not simply looking at the backsides of the players in front of them on the base paths; they see the whole play unfolding and assume that Larnach has rounded third and is on his way home. Only a perfect throw is maybe going to nail him at the plate, so I can't understand why the 3rd base coach stopped him. He gets at least an equal share in this base running fiasco IMHO.

[Brock Beauchamp]

“Let’s cut Miguel Sano…”

*audience cheers*

”… some slack”

*audience boos*

[Doctor Gast]

2 hours ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

The "high exit velo" advanced metrics do not take into consideration slow running. Nor failure to hustle. Nor poor base running decisions.  If a player runs slowly, he will make an out more often than a speedy runner, even if they have the same exit velo. 1) slow running, or 2) swinging and missing the baseball or 3) taking strikes, or 4) continuously hitting the balls where the majority of the defenders are standing...these 4 examples have nothing to do with "luck". I'm not saying Mr. Sano does all or any of these examples. Just saying. 

I think where I'm harder on Sano' is his lack of hustle. I like his strength and quickness that should result in success. I don't fault Sano' on his hitting, I fault the coaching. Last year was terrible to watch our Twins swing out of their spikes to shoot for the moon.

In games we lost this year, I listened to the interviews, Baldelli said they did accomplished their objectives and the players stated that they didn't hit HRs when they needed to. I'm afraid that the focus of management is "moon shots", management needs to focus on teaching hitting. Sano' has good plate discipline but because of his swing, he oftens doesn't keep his eye on the ball and not able to hold back on some questionable pitches.

Getting back to basic hitting could very well help Sano', not only him but the whole team.

[Aerodeliria]

Let's cut Miguel Sano some slacks ?

[joefish]

2 hours ago, terrydactyls said:

My opinion is that this article proves that "advanced numbers" are made up to provide excuses for bad performance.  You can slap all the lipstick you want on his numbers but he is still hitting under .100.  That is just awful no matter how you gauge it.

Not everything that is counted matters..

And not everything that matters is counted. 

[gunnarthor]

2 hours ago, MMMordabito said:

Let's not.  Maybe at .196, but not at .096 with 40% Ks and poor D.   The deep dive into the stats is equivalent to turd polishing.

Any bad luck being associated with xStat (shoulda, coulda, woulda) was all evened out yesterday with all the blind squirrelling.

He doesn't have a 40% k-rate. He has a 30% k-rate. He's not even in the top 20 in k-rate. And one good play hasn't evened out the bad luck but, by the end of the season, it should. 

[Minderbinder]

Fortunately, they've been able to carry Sano the past week as other bats are stepping up.  I can't help but wonder what Sano does in spring training.  He may as well start each season in St. Paul or a Minnesota beer league until he gains some semblance of timing.

Now, having said all that, last night's walk-off may trigger an epic Sano hot streak.  And when he's got his timing down Sano's a very productive hitter.  I'd just like him to wake up a bit earlier in the season.

Last night's walk-off, BTW, provided typical Sano funnies.  He trotted off the plate watching his line drive until it tipped off Grossman's glove, then put his head down and steamed around first, head down, and headed for second clueless as to what was going on.  Urshela watched Sano and clearly couldn't believe what he was seeing.  When Urshela took off for third the final time as Haas threw the ball down the line, Sano powered around second, head down, for third.  When the Tigers finally got the ball back to the left side of the infield, Sano braked and then headed back to second getting into rundown mode oblivious to Urshela belly-flopping across home plate.  Absolutely zero awareness.

[Mike Sixel]

The stats that matters for this discussion is BABIP and that low number is not reflective of anything but bad luck. You can choose to think the advanced stats are garbage, but they are much more predictive of future production than the old timey stats. 

OTOH, his defense is atrocious, so I'm not sure it matters if he hits very well or not....because he'd have to hit better than well to be worth keeping (assuming AK is healthy or Arraez and play first).

[chpettit19]

1 hour ago, MGM4706 said:

STOP with the Exit Velocity crap! That's always the bail out with Sano. "He struck out 20 times this week but did you see the Exit Velocity on that hit he got Wed?" Ridiculous!

Worst part and every former player Twins announcer like Smalley and Morneau have said it. He refuses to work on using the whole field. Look at Miggy for Detroit: 3000 hits but still over 500 Home Runs. Sano could be same hitter but he doesn't understand that after all this time. Keeps wanting to pull the ball and impress with that darn "Exit Velocity"!!

I agree looking strictly at exit velocity is a bad way to do things. But comparing any player to one of the 3 or 4 best right handed hitters in the history of the game is also a really bad way to do things.

[Brian J]

Bad luck? I’m not buying it. Time to cut our losses with Sano. He has been brutal with the bat and is a defensive liability. Every time he comes to the plate I say, “Oh, no.” That should be his nickname: “Oh no” Sano. 

[TheLeviathan]

2 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

The stats that matters for this discussion is BABIP and that low number is not reflective of anything but bad luck. You can choose to think the advanced stats are garbage, but they are much more predictive of future production than the old timey stats. 

OTOH, his defense is atrocious, so I'm not sure it matters if he hits very well or not....because he'd have to hit better than well to be worth keeping (assuming AK is healthy or Arraez and play first).

This.  The defense will always hurt his value, but honestly....are some of you watching the same Sano that I am?  He's spitting on those outside slider/breaking balls more often than ever, he's working counts, and he's stinging the **** out of the ball.

That's a much better Sano than we've seen, he's just not having much luck.  Giving up on him (and for what?) makes no sense in that context.

[puckstopper1]

6 hours ago, Dave The Dastardly said:

How come Sano's "hit" wasn't recorded as an error? The ball hit Grossman's glove. Used to be an automatic error in the old days.

Grossman was so stunned that Sano actually hit the ball that he reacted poorly.  When I saw the replay I thought it should have been an error, but like you Dave, I'm old school.

Kepler makes that catch most of the time, IMO.

[MMMordabito]

3 hours ago, gunnarthor said:

He doesn't have a 40% k-rate. He has a 30% k-rate. He's not even in the top 20 in k-rate. And one good play hasn't evened out the bad luck but, by the end of the season, it should. 

My bad on the Ks.  I must have misheard 19 Ks out of 52 trips to the plate in the broadcast and just rounded it to 40%.  Perhaps, I was Gladdened.  

[laloesch]

7 hours ago, MinnInPa said:

he's a rally killer with his constant K's. last nite..1st two batters on..takes called strike 3. He just can't pick up pitches.... this will be his last year as a Twin.  So many twins with 30% K rate..sickening and Boooooring. Hopefully the next wave of players....Miranda....Martin...Lewis..Kiriloff.. etc will come up and lessen the K's...and push the next K machine.. Larnach ...to the bench

yep, this is his last year as a Twin most likely and i can't say i'll be that upset when he goes.  I've seen enough of his slow months, lol.  The bad outweighs the good in my opinion, time to move on.

[laloesch]

1 hour ago, Brian J said:

Bad luck? I’m not buying it. Time to cut our losses with Sano. He has been brutal with the bat and is a defensive liability. Every time he comes to the plate I say, “Oh, no.” That should be his nickname: “Oh no” Sano. 

I don't buy it either.  I've seen too much of this from Sano that I'm not buying all the "happy talk" excuses that are being posted here.  I'm sorry Sano stinks more often than not.  He may hit quite a few homeruns and display stunning power when he connects but mannnn his brutal k's, mediocre defense at first, and seemingly lackadaisical plate appearances are cringe worthy.  He's just not an intelligent hitter from what i can tell and there doesn't appear to be any sort of progression from one year to the next, just a consistent 38-45% strikeout rate from one season to the next and routine "slow starts."

I think it partly has to do with his conditioning, but that's just my opinion.  The lack of eye at the plate is a skills thing.  You can have all the power in the world but if you can't see pitches and figure out what to swing at and what not to swing at you are going to do what he does.  He's always been a sucker of sorts for offspeed stuff and it's really hurting his career.  

 

I agree time to move on, i've seen enough.  

[laloesch]

4 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

I think where I'm harder on Sano' is his lack of hustle. I like his strength and quickness that should result in success. I don't fault Sano' on his hitting, I fault the coaching. Last year was terrible to watch our Twins swing out of their spikes to shoot for the moon.

In games we lost this year, I listened to the interviews, Baldelli said they did accomplished their objectives and the players stated that they didn't hit HRs when they needed to. I'm afraid that the focus of management is "moon shots", management needs to focus on teaching hitting. Sano' has good plate discipline but because of his swing, he oftens doesn't keep his eye on the ball and not able to hold back on some questionable pitches.

Getting back to basic hitting could very well help Sano', not only him but the whole team.

I agree on the lack of hustle as that's hard to swallow, but I disagree that that it's all the fault of coaching on his hitting.  They've worked with Sano for years and yet we see the same old same old from him.  I also don't think he has good plate discipline.  In fact I think his plate discipline is absolutely atrocious hence the strikeouts.  He swings at almost everything.  The ability to discern what to swing at and what not to swing at ultimately does fall back on the player at the plate at some point and he has to take SOME responsibility for this.  He doesn't need to hit homeruns each and every time he's at the plate either.  Sometimes making contact and getting a good hit to advance runners is good enough and in line with the game plan instead of the moon shot whiff attempts.  

[Loops]

Maybe since he actually got a game winning hit we can fool another team into taking him in a trade

[The_Phantom]

3 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

The stats that matters for this discussion is BABIP and that low number is not reflective of anything but bad luck. You can choose to think the advanced stats are garbage, but they are much more predictive of future production than the old timey stats. 

OTOH, his defense is atrocious, so I'm not sure it matters if he hits very well or not....because he'd have to hit better than well to be worth keeping (assuming AK is healthy or Arraez and play first).

BABIP is one of the most misused "advanced" stats there is. Luck can be a part of it, but this whole notion that "low babip = nothing but bad luck" is just not true.
 
Line Drive %, flyball%, etc, as well as ability to beat the shift, being a slow tank of a human, the ballpark you play in ALL affect BABIP every bit as much, or more, than luck. 

[gunnarthor]

17 minutes ago, The_Phantom said:

BABIP is one of the most misused "advanced" stats there is. Luck can be a part of it, but this whole notion that "low babip = nothing but bad luck" is just not true.
 
Line Drive %, flyball%, etc, as well as ability to beat the shift, being a slow tank of a human, the ballpark you play in ALL affect BABIP every bit as much, or more, than luck. 

Yeah, and all of those things (and how hard he hits the ball) are reasons why his babip is traditionally much higher than average.