Twins 5, Tigers 4: Wild Final Play Extends Win Streak to 5

[USAFChief]

13 minutes ago, minman1982 said:

When I coached sixth graders, we taught our catcher (or any other player for that matter) to NEVER throw the ball back to third on a play like the last play of the game.  Nothing good comes out of throwing the ball again.  Best case scenario, you get Urshela for the second out and Larnach probably scores in the process.  Better to take the bases loaded one out than risk giving up a run (or two) by doing something dumb.

These aren't sixth graders. A major league team had a baserunner (Urshela) caught hung up, dead to rights. A free out. You take that out 100 percent of the time. Larnach isn't even attempting to score with any kind of decent rundown. Hell I'd argue 6th graders should take the free out there. 

The mistake was throwing to THIRD. Larnach was already standing on the bag. A mistake obviously compounded by the actual throw. But you absolutely make a throw...to 2nd, where the player on 2nd just runs Urshela back to 3rd. Tags both runners, one (Urshela) called out. 

 

 

 

[Trov]

I was not watching super close, but Paddock looked pretty good tonight.  It is nice to see these starters all doing well overall, and would like to see them go a little deeper this next time through order.  I am hoping Ryan can go at least a full 6 if not 7 tonight. 

[Vanimal46]

Last night’s blunder by the Tigers is exactly why Correa blew a gasket at Gary Sanchez for throwing the ball to 3rd base in the rundown last week. 

[bunsen82]

I only listened and watched updated on espn.   The version of Paddack we saw last night shows why you always trade a reliever straight up for SP if they are of decent ability.  You are getting 6 innings of production vs 3 per a week,  and it is much more difficult to pitch 5-6 consecutive innings than 1 at a time.  Paddack and Pagan's WAR is the exact same as Rogers,  with really only 1 really good start from Paddack.  

Paddack in 3 starts is starting to look like a really solid addition.  If we can get 5-6 innings with a pitcher with 3-4 pitches that can throw up to 94-95 mph, that is a huge upside.  As much as I love Rogers,  this looks like a trade that will turn out very favorably for the Twins.  Even still I think it was a good trade for the Padres.  This was a trade good for both teams primarily due to each teams roster construction and the twins ability to improve Paddack,  due to better pitch mix and likely facing easier hitters.  

[Verified Member]

3 hours ago, Squirrel said:

You know … if Sano hadn’t run to 2nd, Urshela wouldn’t have taken off for 3rd, and we would be sitting with bases loaded, one run behind. Given the Twins history of scoring with bases loaded, we’d have scored, at most, one run and we’d have been sitting with a tie game going to the 10th. More likely, no runs and a loss. So, given that, it was good Sano and Urshela goofed on base running, ultimately forcing the errant throw by Haase into left field allowing not only the tying run to score but the winning run, too

Is this a way of saying, "Better to be lucky than good?"

[Squirrel]

1 minute ago, Verified Member said:

Is this a way of saying, "Better to be lucky than good?"

That, or ... all's well that ends well?

[Verified Member]

Top 3 WPA: Sano .624, Larnach .243, Paddack .192

How does Kepler with an RBI double and a 2 run HR not get on this list?

[PDX Twin]

3 hours ago, Squirrel said:

You know … if Sano hadn’t run to 2nd, Urshela wouldn’t have taken off for 3rd, and we would be sitting with bases loaded, one run behind. Given the Twins history of scoring with bases loaded, we’d have scored, at most, one run and we’d have been sitting with a tie game going to the 10th. More likely, no runs and a loss. So, given that, it was good Sano and Urshela goofed on base running, ultimately forcing the errant throw by Haase into left field allowing not only the tying run to score but the winning run, too

So, the logical extension is to have Sano attempt to steal second with the bases loaded and wait for the opponents to mess up?  (It might work against Detroit and Chicago.)

[wabene]

Look it I guess just wind me up like a top, but Rocco can only use the players he is provided. What is he supposed to do with that bullpen? Burn Duran out before the middle of May? Calling Rocco the worst manager in the history of the Twins is completely ridiculous.

[Mike Sixel]

18 minutes ago, Verified Member said:

Top 3 WPA: Sano .624, Larnach .243, Paddack .192

How does Kepler with an RBI double and a 2 run HR not get on this list?

Same question.....

[Mike Sixel]

This thread reads like they lost..... Some people just have to complain every thread....

[Harrison Greeley III]

Once again starting 8 right handed hitters against a lefty starting pitcher was a fairly ineffective tactic that helped the pitcher find a rhythm with nearly everyone except the one lefty who was able to disrupt it. 

It's just like when Johan Santana would dominate 8 White Sox hitters but then would give up a Jim Thome HR or two. 

I'm of course glad about the win. But how many times are are we going to do this till we face reality? 

[Aerodeliria]

10 hours ago, MadHits said:

Grossman def made a poor read on the ball but Sano sent a screamer to right field, the catcher throwing to third was the gift. 

Every aspect of the fielding on that play was awful. Grossman's poor path and last second wild stab at the ball. Then Schoop's? throw to home hit the ground about 10 feet in front of him and Haase had to dive to stop it. Then Haase's shot put into left field. It was fun to watch ?. Not exactly stellar baseball but it was fun to watch (though probably not for Tiger fans).

[jmlease1]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

What were Baldelli's errors THIS game?

Doesn't matter. Some people's minds are made up that he's a terrible manager and therefore in every game he either made a decision (or failed to make a decision, or followed a computer printout, or or or) that cost the team the game, or would have cost the team the game except for someone else bailing him out. I find it tiresome, but I'm also someone who thinks that most baseball managers generally have a limited impact on the game. (it's not like it's 50 years ago and Earl Weaver is one of the only people who understands that getting on base is really important no matter how you get there, or that playing for the 3-run hr works better than sacrificing outs to get a run)

Baldelli did fine last night. 

[jmlease1]

Whoops, double post.

Glad to see kepler do well against a lefty.

Edited April 27, 2022 by jmlease1
double post

[Eephus]

I know we'd much prefer to still have Rogers and also somehow have Paddock, but of course that ain't how things work. Rogers is off to a good start, but he did blow a save for the Padres recently and last year converted 9 of 13 save opportunities for the Twins. Wish we still had him, but he wasn't exactly Bruce Sutter in his prime for us. 

[MangLitch]

13 hours ago, Obie said:

All three Twins runners in the 9th screwed up. Why was Larnach standing on 2nd on a liner over the right fielder's head? If had been halfway, he would have scored easily, but he ended up held at third. Sano then forced the issue by heading toward an occupied 2nd base. He could have retreated because no fielder was at first. Instead, Urshela headed toward occupied third. Of course a horrific lob from the catcher allowed the baserunners off the hook.

Not correct. Only being down by 1 with no outs, it is best for Larnach to attempt to take third on the catch to put him in scoring position.... You have to remember, any capable outfielder catches that ball so I can't blame Larnach for assuming a catch and tagging up. Both runners behind him need to be heads up of that as well. Sano is really the issue, he needs to be looking at Urshela. 

[stringer bell]

8 minutes ago, Eephus said:

I know we'd much prefer to still have Rogers and also somehow have Paddock, but of course that ain't how things work. Rogers is off to a good start, but he did blow a save for the Padres recently and last year converted 9 of 13 save opportunities for the Twins. Wish we still had him, but he wasn't exactly Bruce Sutter in his prime for us. 

I liked Rogers a lot, especially when he wasn't confined to the traditional closer role. That said, if getting the Paddack we saw last night (he was pretty good at KC, too), it is probably worth it to make the trade.

Losing Rogers leaves a hole in the bullpen, however. I think, to be competitive, the Twins need to add two quality arms for late-inning leverage and at least one of them should be a lefty. If it requires a prospect, so be it. The bullpen, as put together now, isn't good enough.

[stringer bell]

10 minutes ago, MangLitch said:

Not correct. Only being down by 1 with no outs, it is best for Larnach to attempt to take third on the catch to put him in scoring position.... You have to remember, any capable outfielder catches that ball so I can't blame Larnach for assuming a catch and tagging up. Both runners behind him need to be heads up of that as well. Sano is really the issue, he needs to be looking at Urshela. 

There was one out when Sano had his at-bat. I don't think it was an easy catch for Grossman or any right fielder, but I think that ball gets caught far more often than not. Larnach did the right thing, especially with the way the pitcher was throwing the ball all over the place (possible wild pitch). He probably scores more than 50% of the time, even though he tagged up when the ball got past Grossman, but there was only one out, so it figured he'd be held at third. Sano messed up but could have gone back to first--no one was covering there (I think). In the end the Tigers screwed up in the field worse than the Twins ran the bases. Crazy!

[darwin22]

12 hours ago, flags said:

i'd love to hear more about your apparent insight into these deals that the front office can swing to fix the pitching. as we all know, late april/early may trades are HUGE in baseball. they happen so often, i can hardly keep up with it all.  please share your insights into which organization is going to trade high level, effective left handed relievers less than 20 games into the season, i'm sure all the other teams in the league would also be interested in knowing

After less than 1 hour of research, I submit a list of 10 LHRP's, that imo, are significantly better than Thielbar.  Eight of the 10 are on the following teams:  PIT, MIA, AZ, TX and OAK.  None of which are legitimate playoff contenders this year.  As a result, I believe they'd be willing to part with 1 of these players for 1 maybe 2 mid level minor league prospects.  

My list of LHRP upgrades:   In no particular order

`1. Dillon Peters- PIT

2. Steven Okert- MIA

3. Tim Hill-SD*----playoff  contending team.  However, with addition of Rogers and other strong bullpen arms--Pads GM, Preller, could be willing to deal him.

4.  Joe Maniply-AZ

5.  Kyle Nelson-AZ

6-8------All with Texas

Brock Burke, John King and Brett Martin

9.  Victor Gonzalez-LAD*- likely a playoff lock, but Gonzalez is currently on IL, but expected healthy within the next few weeks.

He pitched well last year--G: 44, 3-1 record with 16 holds and a 3.57 ERA.  With stacked LA bullpen, if deemed healthy, he could be traded

10.  AJ Puk-OAK

Flags:  Should you want "stats" on each or any of these players, please reply as I have that information.  Not wanting to get into an argument on this subject, but I offer that there are definitely LH bullpen arms on multiple NON CONTENDING teams that wouldn't cost more than minor league prospects.  Each, imo, would be an upgrade over what we're getting from Thielbar.

 

 

[Epravens]

That's one thing about baseball. No matter how many games you've watched there's always a chance you'll see something you've never seen before. Rocco couldn't manage a 2 stool lunch counter, the 3B coach is to blame for that fiasco (not Sano), yet they win, despite what the manager has described as "boo, boos." What is this kindergarten? After an of day some might wonder why the two best arms in the bullpen never took their jackets off? But Happy Day, 5 in a row with Ryan on the bump and the Sox sniffing pale hose.

[RpR]

52 minutes ago, MangLitch said:

Not correct. Only being down by 1 with no outs, it is best for Larnach to attempt to take third on the catch to put him in scoring position.... You have to remember, any capable outfielder catches that ball so I can't blame Larnach for assuming a catch and tagging up. Both runners behind him need to be heads up of that as well. Sano is really the issue, he needs to be looking at Urshela. 

Larnach started the screw-up that Detroit saved us from; he should have gone home although the Third Base coach should have told him to go, if , he did not.

Bases loaded with one out is worse than a man on second and third with two outs, the former gives Detroit a forced play.

Of course Larnach is far from fast on the bases.

[Epravens]

Not exactly. Two ways to play that. Halfway (which I prefer in that situation given he's already in scoring position and you're at the bottom of the lineup) or tag up, which he did not do immediately. Given the noodle that Grossman calls a throwing arm you HAVE to score that runner. Period. And by throwing up the stop sign the 3rd base coach caused all of the chaos.

[jmlease1]

41 minutes ago, Epravens said:

Not exactly. Two ways to play that. Halfway (which I prefer in that situation given he's already in scoring position and you're at the bottom of the lineup) or tag up, which he did not do immediately. Given the noodle that Grossman calls a throwing arm you HAVE to score that runner. Period. And by throwing up the stop sign the 3rd base coach caused all of the chaos.

I don't know that watkins really caused this by throwing up the stop sign, since because of the stop-start moves Larnach was doing he really had no chance of scoring once he finally got himself to 3rd? (I've rolled my eyes at some of his decision-making as 3B coach this season, but I think he's off the hook a little here)

Larnach clearly didn't get much of a read on sano's liner; it looked like his brain kept telling him "it's a hit! it's an out. it's a hit! it's an out." until he finally saw that the ball hit the ground. not a great job by him. not a great job of baserunning by sano either, who failed to see what had happened in front of him (but I can understand his thinking on it: to him it looks like a double if he hustles and the runners ahead of him should be gone). Urshela was caught betwixt & between; not sure there's anything he can do that's right there? Either he's out at 3B or he stays at 2B and Sano is out, if Detroit doesn't kick it away. Wild.

Twins D has had a few howlers this year (oof, Arraez) but overall the D has been good. You get some wins just by not kicking a game away.

[Twins_Fan_For_Life]

Christmas came early this year.  And Santa Claus was wearing catcher's equipment.   Happy Holidays everyone!

[Nine of twelve]

I'm so late to the thread that this may not get many views, but I think I have a very significant point. One of the thoughts that I had when I watched last night's game-ending play was this: where the hell was the left fielder? (Austin Meadows.) Watching the replay revealed he was wandering pretty much aimlessly in deep left center field. A major league player should always--ALWAYS--act based on what he can do to contribute to whatever may happen to take place on the field of play. As soon as the ball was struck in the direction of right field he should have been running fast in the general direction of the left side of the infield. Then, as soon as it became apparent that the throw from right field was coming to home plate he should have put himself in position to back up third base. Hasse was obviously culpable for that brain cramp of a throw but had Meadows actually been using his brain instead of letting it idle he probably would have prevented the tying run from scoring and certainly would have prevented the winning run from scoring. Moreover, with Urshela's confounding advance to third base there would probably have been at least one out recorded on the play. It goes to show that errors of omission can be just as damaging as errors of commission.

[Nine of twelve]

20 hours ago, Game7-91 said:

 

French toast. Waffles too.