All Hail Gabe Kapler - pushback on the unwritten rules

[TheLeviathan]

Sanity.

https://www.nbcsports.com/bayarea/giants/gabe-kapler-giants-push-back-unwritten-baseball-rules-blowout-win

 

[chpettit19]

Love it.

[tony&rodney]

I'm not a fan of any team using a non pitcher in an MLB game. No matter the circumstances it reeks of unprofessional competition. There are pitchers who can "take one for the team"/pitch the last few innings. I wish the Giants had scored 50 runs against the Padres and will always hope that the non pitcher doesn't get a single out. 

 

[TheLeviathan]

1 hour ago, tony&rodney said:

I'm not a fan of any team using a non pitcher in an MLB game. No matter the circumstances it reeks of unprofessional competition. There are pitchers who can "take one for the team"/pitch the last few innings. I wish the Giants had scored 50 runs against the Padres and will always hope that the non pitcher doesn't get a single out. 

 

Damn right.  All bets are off once you have the gall to put a shortstop throwing 70 mph on the mound.  You don't get to whine about integrity of the game from that point on.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I wonder if a simple rule fix eliminates this nonsense: have every team declare ten pitchers before the game and they cannot use anyone else to pitch that day.

[mikelink45]

20 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

I wonder if a simple rule fix eliminates this nonsense: have every team declare ten pitchers before the game and they cannot use anyone else to pitch that day.

I want them to designate 4 pitchers per game - with runs or injuries creating a situation where more can be used.

I love what Kapler is doing - tell Rocco.

[mikelink45]

Maddon contributed his own "against" the unwritten rules - https://www.mlb.com/news/joe-maddon-intentional-walk-corey-seager-bases-loaded.  I love it when managers go for it.  Every unwritten law in the game should be challenged and eliminated. 

[terrydactyls]

I love the unwritten rules - in Little League.  There is always a chance of damage to a young mind.  But at the MLB level, these guys are paid millions to be a professional athlete.  One of the expectations I have of professional athletes is that they give 100%.  The only times trying to make an out are acceptable are:

1. A sacrifice

2. If you are the home team and have just taken the lead in the fifth inning or later and the rain is getting worse.  A quick out may mean a win.

Otherwise, you go all out to win.

[jmlease1]

I'll quote Mike Wilbon on this one: "Don't like it? Pitch better!"

Look, if it's the top of the 9th, it's a bit silly to try and manufacture a run that way (and then you're risking injury to your own players in a game that should be out of reach). But it was the 6th inning! There's still a lot of game left! If the Padres hang a crooked number in the 7th, then everything's back on again.

Look, I like seeing sportsmanship in professional sports and think that the people who are advocating a world where "if it's pro ball then there are no standards, only winning" aren't very good for sports. By that kind of thinking, there are no ethical considerations, and you should do anything you can to win at all times. Intentionally spiking someone on a slide? Fair game by that rule. Bean the other team's best player in the first inning using an a reliever as opener? Savvy! (I'm exaggerating a bit...but only a bit. Because if you say "well, I draw the line at hurting another player" all you're doing is changing where you draw the line.) But at the same time, scoring more runs by the rules of the game with 1/3 left to play? Good grief.

I just finished reading "10 Innings at Wrigley". Wild games happen in baseball, blink once and the other team just batted around.

Besides, bunting gives you a good chance to get a damn out. Take the out on a day when you're struggling to get them.

[cHawk]

The concept of the “unwritten rules” were silly all along.

Just because you’re killing your opponent does not mean you should let up and stop trying. If you’re going to put a position player on the mound you’re asking to get clobbered.

[Brandon]

I like it when position players pitch.  It’s a move against wearing your pen out against a team that just obliterated you that day, that you have to face again the next day.   
if I was a hitter I would be doing everything I could to pad my stats.  You get paid for hits, HRs and RBIs.  I never hear at the end of a season that a player who gets 100 RBI got 3 cheap ones in a blowout win and is really only a 97 RBI guy.

[PatPfund]

I don't mind when position players pitch, and please, no more rules about pitchers/declarations/limitations. Like Kapler I'm all for discarding 'unwritten rules' that affect basic gameplay, and dumping them avoids cluttering the rulebook with fixes like declaring pitchers.

The other team should be expected to take full swings against your position player. No team that would accept victory if they had a huge rally should expect their opponents to take innings off. If you really want to save your bullpen then play better, accept opponents teeing off on your 'Astudillo' (even on 3-0), or walk off the field and forfeit the game.

Unwritten rules have their place (respect your team-mates, respect your opponents, respect the game, don't try to injure players even if it is "legal"), but not anywhere that affects basic gameplay or competition.

(One of the stupidest 'unwritten rule' claims of recent years was Brian Dozier complaining when an opponent bunted against a Twins shift. Partly because it was stupid, partly because no such unwritten rule existed, and partly because it went against one of the classic unwritten rules in baseball history, 'hit 'em where they ain't.')

[TheLeviathan]

On 4/16/2022 at 11:49 AM, PatPfund said:

I don't mind when position players pitch, and please, no more rules about pitchers/declarations/limitations. Like Kapler I'm all for discarding 'unwritten rules' that affect basic gameplay, and dumping them avoids cluttering the rulebook with fixes like declaring pitchers.

The other team should be expected to take full swings against your position player. No team that would accept victory if they had a huge rally should expect their opponents to take innings off. If you really want to save your bullpen then play better, accept opponents teeing off on your 'Astudillo' (even on 3-0), or walk off the field and forfeit the game.

Unwritten rules have their place (respect your team-mates, respect your opponents, respect the game, don't try to injure players even if it is "legal"), but not anywhere that affects basic gameplay or competition.

(One of the stupidest 'unwritten rule' claims of recent years was Brian Dozier complaining when an opponent bunted against a Twins shift. Partly because it was stupid, partly because no such unwritten rule existed, and partly because it went against one of the classic unwritten rules in baseball history, 'hit 'em where they ain't.')

My personal belief is that one of the reasons the unwritten rules are unwritten is because the second you try to elaborate on what they are, when they come into play, and why they exist at all....the massive logical gaps in the thinking are exposed.  Contradictory, downright stupid, unclear, etc.  They are purposely nebulous because the alternative is to openly admit to their foolishness.

[PatPfund]

11 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

My personal belief is that one of the reasons the unwritten rules are unwritten is because the second you try to elaborate on what they are, when they come into play, and why they exist at all....the massive logical gaps in the thinking are exposed.  Contradictory, downright stupid, unclear, etc.  They are purposely nebulous because the alternative is to openly admit to their foolishness.

In semi-seriousness, I think the tradition of unwritten rules has to do with the extremely limited set of rules that started the game (1860's New York rules are kind of seen as the original; you can see them at: https://www.vbba.org/1860-beadles-full-text/ ). There were originally 14, but if you scroll down to see the set approved by a player convention, there are 38. And one of the things that might jump out is there are no called balls, and only called strikes (sec 37) if the striker repeatedly refuses to swing at good pitches for the purposes of delaying the game. The written rule was for the pitcher to throw it over the plate "and for the striker" and the unwritten rule was to swing at good pitches.

Another unwritten rule was that stealing bases was allowed. Play the rules of 1860 without stealing and you get a swift, fun game. Play them with stealing, and all the sudden you realize why there was a penalty for not swinging repeatedly (because you were letting players steal bases), and why quickly the umpire was authorized/required to call balls and strikes on every pitch. Games could drag on for hours. (So the long gameplay issue is as old as the game.)

[Old Twins Cap]

Speaking of unconventional moves by managers.... Joe Madden of the Angels recently intentionally walked Corey Seager of Texas with the bases loaded, forcing in a run in an effort to get to ... wait for it ... Mitch Garver. 

Walk in a run on purpose so you don't have to face Seager and can pitch to Garver?

Ouch. 

Twins hitters, even ex-Twins, just don't get any respect.

And, given their results in 2022, who can really argue?

MLB Teams are waiting in line to pitch to the Twins.  Everyone is.  Bases loaded, bases empty, no matter,  -- -- "Please, can we pitch to the Twins?"

Yet, Twins' hitting coaches are secure in their jobs.

For Jesus Christ, I don't even know their names, but apparently, there are two of them, one right-handed, one left?

WTF?

Two hitting coaches so no one person can ever be held accountable for this?

Kind of like Falvey and Levine.  It's not any one person's problem that the Twins suck.

Just a total system failure.

[ashbury]

1 hour ago, Old Twins Cap said:

Yet, Twins' hitting coaches are secure in their jobs.

For Jesus Christ, I don't even know their names

Perhaps not.  They hired a new hitting coach this past off-season, David Popkins.

So, if I have this straight, Seager was walked to get at Garver, and the Twins hitting coach who never coached Garver and is new to the organization entirely.... should be held accountable?

[Old Twins Cap]

8 hours ago, ashbury said:

Perhaps not.  They hired a new hitting coach this past off-season, David Popkins.

So, if I have this straight, Seager was walked to get at Garver, and the Twins hitting coach who never coached Garver and is new to the organization entirely.... should be held accountable?

Last in hitting, first in strikeouts, fewest runs, most double-plays, two guys that no one knows -- what did they used to do for a living?  Coordinators of library services at Dade Community College? 

But can you fire one guy when there are two coaches responsible for hitting?  Or, is this why they are called "the Twins"?

Mostly tongue-in-cheek, I actually like the team better this year.  Just want to see a little more aggression. 

Baldelli is so cerebral and almost effete in demeanor.  Someone kick the water cooler over or break a bat on a mannequin dressed in pinstripes.  Koski once went down after a strikeout and beat the crap out of a chair in Cleveland and next thing you knew, the Twins' were producing runs like the Bakken oil field.

Try voodoo or chant incantations around a candle.  Jeez, you got these two guys in charge of hitting, surely they can come up with something.

[TheLeviathan]

This man is single-handedly saving baseball from itself.

I love finally seeing a player/coach say what I've been saying for years: There is nothing more disrespectful than looking at your opponent and saying "meh, you guys suck so much we have this won.  We'll stop doing stuff".  You're professionals.  7 run lead?  6 run lead in the 8th?  Screw it.  Swing for the fences.  Steal that base.