(F)utility Infielders

[stringer bell]

The Twins appear to have four major leaguers to man the three infield positions and some flexibility. Polanco will be the second baseman, but he has logged 495 games as a shortstop. Correa figures to be the fixture at shortstop. Urshela is a third baseman with experience at short and Arraez is experienced at second and third. 

Barring injuries, I don't see many at-bats for a fifth infielder. If the Twins do choose to keep another infielder, they could go in several directions. As I indicated in the first paragraph, they don't really need a guy that plays shortstop. Top prospect Miranda could back up at third, second and first, but  he hasn't even played his first major league game. Gordon got time in the outfield with the Twins last year and he's played shortstop in both of the spring training games. Two other guys--Robertson and Beckham--have major league experience as shortstops and as utility players, but they are non-roster invitees. Gordon is out of options, and it is entirely possible that he would be lost to the club if he doesn't make the club.

Do the Twins need to keep an additional infielder? If so, which guy should make the trip north next month?

[ashbury]

  On 3/19/2022 at 7:00 PM, stringer bell said:

The Twins appear to have four major leaguers to man the three infield positions and some flexibility. Polanco will be the second baseman, but he has logged 495 games as a shortstop. Correa figures to be the fixture at shortstop. Urshela is a third baseman with experience at short and Arraez is experienced at second and third. 

Barring injuries, I don't see many at-bats for a fifth infielder. If the Twins do choose to keep another infielder, they could go in several directions. As I indicated in the first paragraph, they don't really need a guy that plays shortstop. Top prospect Miranda could back up at third, second and first, but  he hasn't even played his first major league game. Gordon got time in the outfield with the Twins last year and he's played shortstop in both of the spring training games. Two other guys--Robertson and Beckham--have major league experience as shortstops and as utility players, but they are non-roster invitees. Gordon is out of options, and it is entirely possible that he would be lost to the club if he doesn't make the club.

Do the Twins need to keep an additional infielder? If so, which guy should make the trip north next month?

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I do think a trade among the names you mentioned is coming.  100% not Correa, I'd say 95% not Polanco, and other than those it could amount to who brings the most in return, which could vary from one trading partner to the next.  Gordon is the most obvious one to deal but he surely has little trade value.  Pitching pitching pitching has to be the goal of course.  The trade will go a long way toward resolving the oversupply and roster problem in the infield.

[Squirrel]

I'm a broken record with this, and have taken heat for my opinion, but Arraez would be the one I'd look to package in a trade. Although, Arraez alone will not bring back the pitching we need ... at least not alone. Urshela will be 3B, Correa SS, Polanco 2B - Miranda will back up 1B, 2B, 3B, Urshela and Polanco will back up SS, Gordon 2nd and 3rd, SS in a real pinch ... Arraez is just out with nowhere to go, imo. If we keep Arraez, look for Miranda or Urshela to be packaged off in a trade. Gordon is/will be the backup in CF, too, (unless Buxton goes on the DL, then I look to Celestino to get called up), and will be a runner off the bench. So I think he stays because of his flexibility from the bench.

Still not sure who will man 1B - Sano and Kirilloff? Unless Kirilloff is gone in a trade. Either way, Miranda could/would be a back up there, too, as I already suggested.

But, as Ash said ... one of Miranda, Urshela, Arraez, Kirilloff will likely be involved in a trade. But ... if Larnach is involved, then maybe not Kirilloff and he's in the outfield ... 

Wow, still so much to get resolved before April 7th!

[Doctor Gast]

  On 3/19/2022 at 8:30 PM, Squirrel said:

I'm a broken record with this, and have taken heat for my opinion, but Arraez would be the one I'd look to package in a trade. Although, Arraez alone will not bring back the pitching we need ... at least not alone. Urshela will be 3B, Correa SS, Polanco 2B - Miranda will back up 1B, 2B, 3B, Urshela and Polanco will back up SS, Gordon 2nd and 3rd ... Arraez is just out with nowhere to go, imo. If we keep Arraez, look for Miranda or Urshela to be packaged off in a trade. Gordon is/will be the backup in CF, too, (unless Buxton goes on the DL, then I look to Celestino to get called up), and will be a runner off the bench. So I think he stays because of his flexibility from the bench.

Still not sure who will man 1B - Sano and Kirilloff? Unless Kirilloff is gone in a trade. Either way, Miranda could/would be a back up there, too, as I already suggested.

But, as Ash said ... one of Miranda, Urshela, Arraez, Kirilloff will likely be involved in a trade. But ... if Larnach is involved, then maybe not Kirilloff and he's in the outfield ... 

Wow, still so much to get resolved before April 7th!

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I have always been with you on this one, Squirrel. Next to Kiriloff, Arraez has the most trade value and where he plays we have an over abundance. Kiriloff is part of our future, unless there's a pitcher we absolutely have to have, I wouldn't trade him. With Martin & Lewis soon to be called up, that'd make them even more nonessential. We have a lot of nonessential players that we can choose from to trade.

LAD phylosophy is you never can have too much quality depth at SS and CF. For many years we've lacked quality depth at CF &SS. With Lewis & Martin they bring much needed quality depth, so I wouldn't trade them. IMO Arraez as our #1 trading chip is a no brainer.

[Squirrel]

  On 3/19/2022 at 9:31 PM, Doctor Gast said:

I have always been with you on this one, Squirrel. Next to Kiriloff, Arraez has the most trade value and where he plays we have an over abundance. Kiriloff is part of our future, unless there's a pitcher we absolutely have to have, I wouldn't trade him. With Martin & Lewis soon to be called up, that'd make them even more nonessential. We have a lot of nonessential players that we can choose from to trade.

LAD phylosophy is you never can have too much quality depth at SS and CF. For many years we've lacked quality depth at CF &SS. With Lewis & Martin they bring much needed quality depth, so I wouldn't trade them. IMO Arraez as our #1 trading chip is a no brainer.

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Well, the thing with Martin and Lewis ... I'd hold off on that because it's likely Correa is only here 1 yr ... unless we really prove we are winners, and then maybe ... but he would likely want to renegotiate anyway and Boras will want him to. But I don't think Arraez has THAT much trade value; some, but not enough to headline a trade package for a quality starter, such as Montas

[tony&rodney]

Boras is an agent who works extremely hard for the players he represents. I really doubt he worries about his cut because he has proven himself thoroughly for many years to be the real deal. Boras knows that he will make money because of the players he has under contract. Is he perfect? No, he is human. Does he have an ego? Yes, all humans do. Boras is not an issue, at all. I have never known him to force a player to take a contract against their wishes.

The Twins have some real options ahead of them. The unknown is how another team views any of the players who might potentially be exchanged by the Twins to gain a pitcher (or two). Larnach, Rooker, and Garlick are rough in the field and Arraez, Urshela, and Miranda do not really have a position either. I like how Miranda has developed into a player who attacks pitches but still maintains control. Kepler is a hard one to judge from any side and it is doubtful that either Sano or Polanco are going to be involved in a trade, albeit for different reasons. Martin and Lewis are athletic wild cards and I'm hoping they can escape all trade scenarios. I am amenable to trades of pitching prospects despite my interest in all of their futures. Duran, Woods Richardson, Strotman, Sands, Enlow, and Varland are some of the prospects who I could see going in a trade, maybe even Ryan in the right trade. Ober, Winder, Balazovic, and Raya - I want to hoard these four. Hopefully, a reasonable trade occurs that benefits both teams. 

What a difference in attitude and belief one addition (Correa) can make to a franchise. This sells tickets.

[The Mad King]

I don't see them keeping Miranda as a backup. Back to AAA, trade, or start. I think they keep Gordon.

[solomon1930]

  On 3/20/2022 at 3:57 AM, The Mad King said:

I don't see them keeping Miranda as a backup. Back to AAA, trade, or start. I think they keep Gordon.

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He should be playing every day somewhere.

[bean5302]

  On 3/19/2022 at 10:12 PM, tony&rodney said:

Boras is an agent who works extremely hard for the players he represents. I really doubt he worries about his cut because he has proven himself thoroughly for many years to be the real deal. Boras knows that he will make money because of the players he has under contract....

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I have a lot of experience with agents who make sales in the tens and hundreds of millions, even billions of dollars. If you think, even for a second, their primary interest isn't maximizing their own income, you're naive.

It just so happens maximizing their income coincides, mostly, with maximizing player compensation as well. If it came down to advising their client on a deal which was fairly close to the same for the player, but provided significantly more compensation to Boras, Boras would 100% advise his client to take the deal which paid Boras more. Period.

Aside from agent greed, Boras runs an entire company. Keeping everything operating and his staff paid is not cheap, I'll guarantee you that. No for profit company is going to ignore potential revenue and not worry about keeping the business running. That's just plain irresponsible.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Agreed with Squirrel, SS is well covered as well as infield generally. I can also see Arraez get packaged for pitching, also Urshela, probably not Martin/Lewis as they are the future.

Is there an upgrade at 4th outfield over Gordon coming? Someone who can spell Buxton a bit more capably?

 

[stringer bell]

  On 3/20/2022 at 11:37 AM, Sconnie said:

Agreed with Squirrel, SS is well covered as well as infield generally. I can also see Arraez get packaged for pitching, also Urshela, probably not Martin/Lewis as they are the future.

Is there an upgrade at 4th outfield over Gordon coming? Someone who can spell Buxton a bit more capably?

 

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Regarding the infield, I think the unknown is Miranda. If he forces his way on the roster, he will get playing time, not just be a backup and then there are too many players for the three positions. If the Twins are content to send him back to St. Paul, then having Arraez, Urshela, Correa and Polanco to cover the three infield positions is enough and adding Gordon as a utility guy who can sub in center field and pinch run makes sense. With Miranda on 26 (27-28?) man roster, it makes Arraez expendable. 

As far as a fourth outfielder, well what about a third outfielder? Right now, Kepler and Buxton are locks and we don't know who will man left field. It could be Kirilloff, but I would really like to see him get the majority of innings at first base. Larnach would be my preference to play left, particularly since he hits left handed. The Twins  have acquired three right handed bats making them lean more to the right than they have in some time, particularly if Arraez is traded.

[Squirrel]

  On 3/20/2022 at 1:15 PM, stringer bell said:

Regarding the infield, I think the unknown is Miranda. If he forces his way on the roster, he will get playing time, not just be a backup and then there are too many players for the three positions. If the Twins are content to send him back to St. Paul, then having Arraez, Urshela, Correa and Polanco to cover the three infield positions is enough and adding Gordon as a utility guy who can sub in center field and pinch run makes sense. With Miranda on 26 (27-28?) man roster, it makes Arraez expendable. 

As far as a fourth outfielder, well what about a third outfielder? Right now, Kepler and Buxton are locks and we don't know who will man left field. It could be Kirilloff, but I would really like to see him get the majority of innings at first base. Larnach would be my preference to play left, particularly since he hits left handed. The Twins  have acquired three right handed bats making them lean more to the right than they have in some time, particularly if Arraez is traded.

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Sano will not be primarily a DH. It's been said before that he does better when he's playing? (Is that true? I really don't know but he prefers to play and not be a DH only.) I think we will see him split the time at 1st with Kirilloff with neither being the majority. (Miranda could/would back up first, but not get very much time there, but, he can back up there. I only mentioned above that he would be a backup, but I think most of 1st will be split between Sano and Kirilloff, but, with Kirilloff's wrist ... ) Kirilloff will also be in the outfield, leaving Larnach as a 4th fielder, I guess. Not sure what to do with Rooker yet. If Celestino does well in ST, he could be the 4th outfielder. He was called up way too early last year out of necessity, but then spent the rest of the season in AAA where he took off and was doing very well by the end of the season. I'd rather he get more time in AAA and be the first called up. But I think it was said earlier on this site that Gordon would spell Buxton in center unless Buxton was put on the IL, then Celestino would get called up. Eh ... not sure. Lots to get solidified. 

[Squirrel]

  On 3/20/2022 at 11:37 AM, Sconnie said:

Agreed with Squirrel, SS is well covered as well as infield generally. I can also see Arraez get packaged for pitching, also Urshela, probably not Martin/Lewis as they are the future.

Is there an upgrade at 4th outfield over Gordon coming? Someone who can spell Buxton a bit more capably?

 

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If we are going to trade for Montas, or someone of that quality, I think it could cost us one of Martin or Lewis. I don't want to lose either, especially if Correa becomes a one-year stopgap. If not one of them, it might cost us Miranda. I'd rather Arraez be packaged in a trade, although I don't think his value is as high as Martin, Lewis or Miranda. I guess Urshela could be, too, but honestly, I think I'd rather have Urshela than Arraez. I think Urshela is a more solid fielder and can backup SS, if needed. There is more flexibility with Urshela. Eh, again ... I just don't know. Especially since we are hoping to hear news of a trade for a pitcher. It's anyone's guess who's gone if a trade is pulled off. We almost need to at this point.

[tony&rodney]

  On 3/20/2022 at 6:31 AM, bean5302 said:

Aside from agent greed, Boras runs an entire company. Keeping everything operating and his staff paid is not cheap, I'll guarantee you that. No for profit company is going to ignore potential revenue and not worry about keeping the business running. That's just plain irresponsible.

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Oh, he gets his cut and has an ego to match anyone, for sure. I'm just not one to believe that Boras forces players into contracts against their will and only for his personal wallet. He does keep an eye on maintaining what he built and no one should ever mistake the Boras Corporation for a charity. I don't have any admiration for agents at all, but the player still makes the final decision. If the PA believes that agents are abusing the best interests of the players, there needs to be some actions taken (education) or interventions. I agree with your point that agents are business people.

[tony&rodney]

The Twins are hurting in the outfield if you agree that an outfielder needs to catch the ball. Rooker, Garlick, and Larnach are pretty rough out there. Kirilloff is just ok in the outfield but better at 1B. Arraez is a no and I have never seen Miranda in the outfield. Martin has looked rough at shortstop and could be the guy for leftfield. I agree that Sano prefers to play 1B, but Kirilloff brings a better glove to the position. Spring Training and a trade could relieve the situation in the infield. Right now, Nick Gordon looks like he has some real value because he can fill in adequately at shortstop and in the outfield.

The Twins should be open to using any of Arraez, Urshela, Miranda, Lewis, or Martin for the right pitcher. I'm hoping they can somehow hold onto the last three but it may be difficult. It is almost impossible to predict what another team seeks from the Twins.

[stringer bell]

  On 3/20/2022 at 2:09 PM, tony&rodney said:

The Twins are hurting in the outfield if you agree that an outfielder needs to catch the ball. Rooker, Garlick, and Larnach are pretty rough out there. Kirilloff is just ok in the outfield but better at 1B. Arraez is a no and I have never seen Miranda in the outfield. Martin has looked rough at shortstop and could be the guy for leftfield. I agree that Sano prefers to play 1B, but Kirilloff brings a better glove to the position. Spring Training and a trade could relieve the situation in the infield. Right now, Nick Gordon looks like he has some real value because he can fill in adequately at shortstop and in the outfield.

The Twins should be open to using any of Arraez, Urshela, Miranda, Lewis, or Martin for the right pitcher. I'm hoping they can somehow hold onto the last three but it may be difficult. It is almost impossible to predict what another team seeks from the Twins.

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I’m not sure the Twins think that Gordon can “fill in adequately at shortstop” and I don’t know if he can either. They are giving him some reps, but I haven’t seen anything either way that says “major league shortstop”. Rocco preferred to move Polanco over to short rather than using Gordon there and I wonder if he’d prefer Urshela to Gordon. We shall see. If that is the case, Gordon’s value is limited to base running speed and the new-found ability to cover in the outfield. 
 

Regarding fielding metrics, I only have ready access to BBRef and they say that Larnach and Kirilloff are subpar in left, but Rooker is borderline awful. Kirilloff is good at first (far superior to Sanó) and that is why I’d like to see Miguel as the primary DH. 

[Squirrel]

  On 3/20/2022 at 3:15 PM, stringer bell said:

I’m not sure the Twins think that Gordon can “fill in adequately at shortstop” and I don’t know if he can either. They are giving him some reps, but I haven’t seen anything either way that says “major league shortstop”. Rocco preferred to move Polanco over to short rather than using Gordon there and I wonder if he’d prefer Urshela to Gordon. We shall see. If that is the case, Gordon’s value is limited to base running speed and the new-found ability to cover in the outfield. 
 

Regarding fielding metrics, I only have ready access to BBRef and they say that Larnach and Kirilloff are subpar in left, but Rooker is borderline awful. Kirilloff is good at first (far superior to Sanó) and that is why I’d like to see Miguel as the primary DH. 

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We don’t need Gordon to back up SS when Polanco or Urshela can, should, will. But when one of those two slot over, Gordon can slot in at 2nd or 3rd. But his value as the 26th man comes in when he can fill in occasionally in CF and his speed off the bench. Doubtful Gordon will cover outfield if/when Buxton hits the DL. They will call up Celestino for that, or rather, imo that’s what they should do.

i agree there is uncertainty in the outfield, but that’s another discussion. Kirilloff will spend time out there, and Gordon will rarely/occasionally, but we do need another outfielder, and not sure who that will be.

again, a lot to get settled before APr. 7, and likely won’t get clearer until we get a trade done for a pitcher.

[tony&rodney]

I was putting Gordon forth in the event Urshela is moved in a trade and should have made that clear. Gordon doesn't look like a shortstop but he does look better than Martin. Hopefully, Correa plays 150+ games at shortstop and a fill in is not too crucial. Last November I was pining for Ehire Adrianza as a bench/ role player/ coach. So much depends on the ask from other teams as the Twins look to flesh out their roster.

[ToddlerHarmon]

I see the opinion above that Kirilloff is not the right trade option, as he has too much potential and is young enough to be part of the Twins future. Other than having consumed more years of control, how is Arraez any more expendable than Kirilloff? They are the same age. Arraez' MLB hitting skills are not hypothetical.  Kirilloff's best position (1B) also has a logjam, and is far less difficult to fill with offense.

This is by no means a plea to trade Kirilloff, but a plea, again, to not trade Arraez.

IMO, Urshela, due to cost, age, and performance ceiling is clearly the most expendable. He would not get the return of AK or LA, but his value to the present and future of our lineup is redundant. I think you package him with one of the starting pitching prospects, and expect better-than-Gray-level talent and control in return

[bean5302]

  On 3/20/2022 at 1:54 PM, tony&rodney said:

...I'm just not one to believe that Boras forces players into contracts against their will and only for his personal wallet...

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Haha, well, it's not like he forces them into it. A good salesperson (and Boras is obviously as good as they come) can convince the buyer of whatever the salesperson wants. Trust me, I've seen it time and time again. There are always merits to anything. No matter what decision a person makes, there is a sacrifice.

Having pizza for dinner means you can't have ice cream for dinner. Having ice cream for dinner means you can't have pizza for dinner. Salespeople are incredibly good at highlighting the merits and discounting the drawbacks to any deal, and it just so happens what benefit's the client the most just always happens to be what benefits the agent the most. If pushed on the subject, the agent will say the agent's representation is the reason why the client was in the position to get the offer they received in the first place.

I've seen financially devastating decisions made by people at the advice of an agent looking for a cash grab, and it's almost never the agent who winds up on the hook. 

[ashbury]

  On 3/20/2022 at 7:29 PM, bean5302 said:

I've seen financially devastating decisions made by people at the advice of an agent looking for a cash grab, and it's almost never the agent who winds up on the hook. 

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If only the players had the good sense to ditch those sinister agents and accept what the kindly front offices would offer out of the goodness of their hearts.

The rhetoric you use seems straight from the owners' playbook. Vilify anything that levels the playing field for individuals whose skillsets are considerable but not in the area of finance.  The net effect of almost every agent, and Boras in particular, is positive for the player, not "devastating."

This isn't the thread for a full-on debate of baseball economics, so I'll end my contributions with this post, but I didn't feel like leaving the unbalanced portrayal to sit uncontested.

[bean5302]

If there are no other moves (which I'd be pretty surprised if there weren't), I'd expect the opening day position roster to look something like this.
C - Sanchez
1B - Kirilloff
2B - Polanco
3B - Urshela
SS - Correa
LF - Rooker
CF - Buxton
RF - Kepler
DH - Sano
UI - Arraez
UO - Gordon
BC - Jeffers
AAA - Miranda
AAA - Celestino
AAA - Larnach

SP - Gray
SP - Bundy
SP - Ryan
SP - Ober
SP - Winder
AAA - Balazovic
AAA - Stotman

RP - Rogers
RP - Duffey
RP - Alcala
RP - Thielbar
RP - Dobnak
RP - Stashak
RP - Cotton
RP - Smith
RP - Garza, Jr.
AAA - Moran
AAA - Jax
 

[bean5302]

  On 3/20/2022 at 7:43 PM, ashbury said:

If only the players had the good sense to ditch those sinister agents and accept what the kindly front offices would offer out of the goodness of their hearts.

The rhetoric you use seems straight from the owners' playbook. Vilify anything that levels the playing field for individuals whose skillsets are considerable but not in the area of finance.  The net effect of almost every agent, and Boras in particular, is positive for the player, not "devastating."

This isn't the thread for a full-on debate of baseball economics, so I'll end my contributions with this post, but I didn't feel like leaving the unbalanced portrayal to sit uncontested.

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This was a comment on salespeople. Salespeople can take their skills to any industry they want because the techniques apply universally.

[Squirrel]

Please stick to the main discussion of utility fielders. This Boras/agent sidetrack could better be discussed in its own, dedicated thread. Thanks.

[h2oface]

Trade the Yankees. Get the visitors out of here!