Twins Trade Mitch Garver to Rangers for Shortstop Isiah Kiner-Falefa

[sftwinsfan]

I could maybe see it if IKF had more years of control left, but he has the same 2 as Garver, so this being a move that strengthens the future can't really be argued. He's a band-aid at SS for a team that will probably lose 90+ games anyways. They've taken an asset in Garver and traded him for a relatively short-term fix at SS on a bad team plus a fringe prospect with a live arm. Nor would he be the type of player I would be interested in signing long-term. He's a glove-first player with well below average offense. I would have rather had a couple more lotto ticket pitching prospects.

 

[roger]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

He was better last year than I thought. If he does put up two WAR at SS this year, it isn't a bad trade. I don't love it, as I really don't want Rortdvert in the majors, but I guess we'll see

Was saddened by your comment, Mike.  Yes, Rortvedt shouldn’t have been in the majors last year.  But he sure showed that his D is real.  Agree that it would be best if he could get the first half of the year in AAA, but we will see.  I am convinced he is going to be a regular catcher for the Twins for many years.

[bighat]

54 minutes ago, dex8425 said:

There's like 5 guys who are going to give you what Kiner Falefa would give you this year, and they just cost money, not one of your best bats. I hate this. Makes the team worse overall. 

"Best bats"? Whaaa? All of a sudden everyone is moaning like Garver is Johnny Bench. Why? He had a great year during a juiced ball season. He's a slightly above-average hitting catcher with slightly below-average defense. The end.

 

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, USAFChief said:

Ask yourself this...is any actually trying to win a WS?

This is an obvious no. They're trying to win enough games to keep the fans buying tickets until the Vikings start training camp. Profit is maximized by finishing 5th-8th in the American League.

[mk]

Yuck.

[h2oface]

2 hours ago, 2wins87 said:

......Of course Garver ......... he's already well past 30. 

1 year and 55 days past his 30th birthday. Your definition of well past 30 is much different than mine. More like barely past 30. Especially if you consider that 56 days ago he was still 30 if asked how old he is.

Yadier Molina agrees I bet.

Falafel is 27 in 11 days. Basically 4 years difference, but one is young and one is old. Go figure. 

K-F only has two years left on his contract. I guess that means to this FO that he has to be traded (ala Berrios and Pressly) by the trade deadline of this year..... so trading Garver for 3 months of Twindom.

[KirbyDome89]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

They aren't serious contenders this year. I'm not sure what you expect at this point, realistically. 

100% agree, I think it was a long shot regardless, but that ship sailed the moment they decided to sit out the initial FA wave. To me this move doesn't make them better in the interim, it's not setting them up at the position for the future, and it seems like floor is being prioritized over ceiling, which doesn't make sense if you aren't going to be competitive. I can't speak for Chief, but that's how I read the "losing move," comment. 

57 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

Really? Who? I'm genuinely curious which free agents you think put up 2 war next year.

Technically it wouldn't have to be 2 WAR right? They gave up an equivalent amount to bring in IKF. It's really the Jeffers/Rortvedt platoon, which was probably a tick below replacement level last season, vs. whatever hypothetical they could've slotted in at SS. 

[Danchat]

31 minutes ago, bighat said:

"Best bats"? Whaaa? All of a sudden everyone is moaning like Garver is Johnny Bench. Why? He had a great year during a juiced ball season. He's a slightly above-average hitting catcher with slightly below-average defense. The end.

 

The ball was juiced for everyone, and he had a 157 OPS+. Then he had a 139 OPS+ last year in a season with a dejuiced ball.

I get the reasoning behind devaluing him because he's likely going to get around 300 PAs and he's getting older, but saying that his bat is 'above average' is selling him short.

[KirbyDome89]

43 minutes ago, bighat said:

Yes but the Twins aren't the Yankees, Dodgers, or Red Sox and they never will be. Signing Trevor Story or Carlos Correa just isn't something we Twins fans can expect to happen.  Especially when the best starter on the team is a rookie who's tossed a grand total of 20 MLB innings. This is what we get. 

Now this trade isn't exactly a blockbuster but it's certainly not "disappointing".

Garver had a great year during the Juiced Ball experiment of 2019, otherwise he's a very average player. And he's getting old without much in the tank. The Twins flipped a one-year wonder for a 27 year-old Gold Glove infielder who can bat in the middle 3rd of the order and play 162 games. The downside of course is that you have to believe Jeffers is going to hit .250 this year, but it's spring and this is baseball, so we can hope.

Free agency's not done yet, and the trading has just begun. IMO we should be happy that the Twins are active and fixing holes.

They don't have to be, and nobody is arguing they should be. They're $40M+ short of last season's payroll right now. There's room to spend and it's painfully obvious they won't be tossing all that cash at the rotation. 

Did you watch Garver and his .875 OPS last season? You want to plug a .670 OPS into the 5 hole? That GG came at 3B, in a 60 game season; he was a league average defender at SS last year. 

[jimbo92107]

I'm a Garver fan - love that short, powerful swing. But he's 31, average as a defensive catcher. Also, the Twins had a mini-logjam at C. Now that is resolved, leaving two very good defensive catchers, one that is a good hitter, and one that will be if he tucks in his chin (hear me Roar-vedt). Just crouch a little more like Arraez, Ben!

No idea who the new SS is, but apparently he's at least a solid glove with a good bat. Been a while...

Farewell, Mitch Garver. Have fun with your new playmates!

[jorgenswest]

For his 236 innings at SS Polanco contributed 1.1 WAR in spite of below average defense. In 1360 innings Falefa contributed 2.3 WAR thanks to his glove. Polanco’s bat out trumps Falefa’s glove here in a big way.

The 2019 line up was awesome because of the contribution of Garver and Polanco at catcher and shortstop. The 2022 line up with Arraez, Garver and Polanco would have been difficult from 1 to 9. Bullpens would be taxed and thinned by the last game of the series. The 2022 line up now looks to have weak bats at 8 and 9.

I get the injury risk to Polanco playing him at SS and the injury risk to Garver. It is that the upside of healthy seasons from them that was the path to winning the central. Instead they chose the safety of mediocrity. The Rangers with Falefa as their SS for nearly every inning ranked 19th at SS last year. I would expect the same safe mediocre neighborhood this year.

[HerbieFan]

3 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

He was better last year than I thought. If he does put up two WAR at SS this year, it isn't a bad trade. I don't love it, as I really don't want Rortdvert in the majors, but I guess we'll see

Rortvedt's OPS in St.Paul was .750...I think that'd be best case for both him and Jeffers.  What do you think?  500 ABs for Jeffers could get him to 20+ HR and 65ish RBI.  With his defense, that might be good enough.

[USAFChief]

2 hours ago, bighat said:

Yes but the Twins aren't the Yankees, Dodgers, or Red Sox and they never will be. Signing Trevor Story or Carlos Correa just isn't something we Twins fans can expect to happen.  Especially when the best starter on the team is a rookie who's tossed a grand total of 20 MLB innings. This is what we get. 

Now this trade isn't exactly a blockbuster but it's certainly not "disappointing".

Garver had a great year during the Juiced Ball experiment of 2019, otherwise he's a very average player. And he's getting old without much in the tank. The Twins flipped a one-year wonder for a 27 year-old Gold Glove infielder who can bat in the middle 3rd of the order and play 162 games. The downside of course is that you have to believe Jeffers is going to hit .250 this year, but it's spring and this is baseball, so we can hope.

Free agency's not done yet, and the trading has just begun. IMO we should be happy that the Twins are active and fixing holes.

IKF is going to bat 4, 5 or 6?

 

Holy cow we're going to be even worse than I thought.

[h2oface]

4 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

For his 236 innings at SS Polanco contributed 1.1 WAR in spite of below average defense. In 1360 innings Falefa contributed 2.3 WAR thanks to his glove. Polanco’s bat out trumps Falefa’s glove here in a big way.

The 2019 line up was awesome because of the contribution of Garver and Polanco at catcher and shortstop. The 2022 line up with Arraez, Garver and Polanco would have been difficult from 1 to 9. Bullpens would be taxed and thinned by the last game of the series. The 2022 line up now looks to have weak bats at 8 and 9.

I get the injury risk to Polanco playing him at SS and the injury risk to Garver. It is that the upside of healthy seasons from them that was the path to winning the central. Instead they chose the safety of mediocrity. The Rangers with Falefa as their SS for nearly every inning ranked 19th at SS last year. I would expect the same safe mediocre neighborhood this year.

Someone correct me if I am wrong here, but WAR is a cummulative stat. Sooooo.... using your figures, Falafel has 1360 innings and 2.3 total WAR, That is 5.76 times more innings than the 236 innings you state for Polanco. If he is consistent for the other 1124 innings to match K-F's innings...... he would total (1.1 WAR x 5.76 = 6.34) 6.34 WAR in 1360 innings compared to 2.3 for K-F.

[bighat]

1 hour ago, KirbyDome89 said:

There's room to spend and it's painfully obvious they won't be tossing all that cash at the rotation.

I think it's too early to say that. In fact, this trade indicates that the Twins are going to spend their remaining $$$ on pitching. Johnny Cueto and Michael Pineda are going to be signed.

[KirbyDome89]

1 hour ago, bighat said:

I think it's too early to say that. In fact, this trade indicates that the Twins are going to spend their remaining $$$ on pitching. Johnny Cueto and Michael Pineda are going to be signed.

They wouldn't shell out for front end guys but they'll pay mediocre vets $20M? Yikes.

[tony&rodney]

3 hours ago, bighat said:

IMO we should be happy that the Twins are active and fixing holes.

Maybe, I don't know though. Can we compare the Twins to what the Tigers or White Sox do? Others? What is the ceiling for the Twins for a 2022 roster budget? Why does it seem like $100 million is more likely than $140 million? If the Twins spend 75% of the 2020 budget, will ticket prices, concessions, etc. all be reduced accordingly? I'm not expecting that at all, but I do wonder why the Twins are not expected to consider established players. It has been shown repeatedly that a couple of larger salaries fit within the past budgets, yet a very common refrain here on TD is that $20-25 million is too much to spend for a player. A large number of comments suggest that Josh Donaldson should be traded because he earns too much money. I'm just really interested to hear what everyone believes a reasonable number is for the Twins regarding their roster budget.

[Nine of twelve]

5 hours ago, Linus said:

Not against trading Garver but thought it would be for pitching. This pretty much tells us what they think about Lewis at SS. 

I agree. It tells us that what they think about Lewis is that he is not ready now and probably will not be ready before 2024. Keep in mind he's only 22 years old. Not many shortstops make strong showings at the major league level at that age even under the best of circumstances, and he has had a very unfortunate sequence of events significantly impeding his progress. 

[Mike Sixel]

4 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

Yes, you are correct and I agree. Why is it that the Twins pitching is in such poor shape? Why do so many TD fans seem content to run out AA and AAA pitching prospects with nobody above them to show the pups the ropes, which invariably leads to 90-110 losses? As much as I may like our young starting pitching prospects, the current guys are widely acknowledged by those outside the team to be either middle or below average compared to every other team. We could get lucky, yes. The Twins get more athletic with IK-F and that is good, but unless a minimum of two experienced starting pitchers worth watching are added via trades, this team is sunk. Why did they sign Buxton? I guess patience is in order because until Falvey declares the roster full and finished being constructed there is a chance. 

Which TD fans are content?

[Mike Sixel]

3 hours ago, KirbyDome89 said:

100% agree, I think it was a long shot regardless, but that ship sailed the moment they decided to sit out the initial FA wave. To me this move doesn't make them better in the interim, it's not setting them up at the position for the future, and it seems like floor is being prioritized over ceiling, which doesn't make sense if you aren't going to be competitive. I can't speak for Chief, but that's how I read the "losing move," comment. 

Technically it wouldn't have to be 2 WAR right? They gave up an equivalent amount to bring in IKF. It's really the Jeffers/Rortvedt platoon, which was probably a tick below replacement level last season, vs. whatever hypothetical they could've slotted in at SS. 

He said there were five guys available as free agents as good as this guy. Hence my question, which free agent SS that they would sign is that good?

[Mike Sixel]

4 hours ago, roger said:

Was saddened by your comment, Mike.  Yes, Rortvedt shouldn’t have been in the majors last year.  But he sure showed that his D is real.  Agree that it would be best if he could get the first half of the year in AAA, but we will see.  I am convinced he is going to be a regular catcher for the Twins for many years.

Fair. I don't believe in his bat this year.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

Thank you, Mitch for your contributions, your enthusiasm, your effort and for your smile. You are truly one of the good guys. I wish the very best for you and your family. 

[KirbyDome89]

39 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

He said there were five guys available as free agents as good as this guy. Hence my question, which free agent SS that they would sign is that good?

Yeah Idk Mike, my post was in reference to the framing. I'm staying away from the rest of it. 

[Riverbrian]

15 hours ago, USAFChief said:

This is a trade made by losing teams.

 

Ask yourself this...is any actually trying to win a WS handing a starting job to IKF?

Would the Dodgers? Yankees? Red Sox? 

Texas moved on, because this is a placeholder. Someone has to stand at SS on opening day. This is not a player that helps you be better than other teams. 

I couldn't be more disappointed in this FO.

Yeah... I don't like this trade much either. 

But... I'm going to agree with you by disagreeing with you. 

This isn't a trade that is made by losing teams. Losing teams wouldn't have traded two years of one of the top hitting performers at a hitting scarce position like catcher for two years of a defensive performer at a defensively scarce position like shortstop. Losing teams would have gotten a fairly decent prospect or two. 

Falvey mentioned that they had "Some Depth" at the catcher position. They HAD some depth with Garver and Jeffers... they don't have depth at catcher anymore and the funny thing is... with the edition of Kiner-Falefa... they still don't have depth at SS either.... so now you don't have depth at two positions instead of one.

This trade is like pumping half the water that seeped into the northwest corner of your basement into the dry southwest corner of your basement. If I did that... my wife would ask me why I wrecked a dry corner trying to fix the wet corner and answering "for balance" would not satisfy her. 

The last time we moved a player from a position of "depth" to shore up a "thin" position... it was Aaron Hicks for John Ryan Murphy. By May we were desperately shoring up that OF depth with Robbie Grossman off the scrap heap plus we got to enjoy Juan Centeno at catcher to boot. 

Yep... We just did it again. 

 

[roger]

53 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Yeah... I don't like this trade much either. 

But... I'm going to agree with you by disagreeing with you. 

This isn't a trade that is made by losing teams. Losing teams would have not have traded two years of one of the top hitting performers at a hitting scarce position like catcher for two years of a defensive performer at a defensively scarce position like shortstop. 

Falvey mentioned that they had "Some Depth" at the catcher position. They HAD some depth with Garver and Jeffers... they don't have depth at catcher anymore and the funny thing is... with the edition of Kiner-Falefa... they still don't have depth at SS either.... so now you don't have depth at two positions instead of one.

This trade is like pumping half the water that seeped into the northwest corner of your basement into the dry southwest corner of your basement. If I did that... my wife would ask me why I wrecked a dry corner trying to fix the wet corner and answering "for balance" would not satisfy her. 

The last time we moved a player from a position of "depth" to shore up a "thin" position... it was Aaron Hicks for John Ryan Murphy. By May we were desperately shoring up that OF depth with Robbie Grossman off the scrap heap plus we got to enjoy Juan Centeno at catcher to boot. 

Yep... We just did it again. 

 

I have a feeling Riverbain that the Twins are much higher on Rortvedt than you and many here.  I will confess that I may be too optimistic about the young man, but I believe they are fine with he and Jeffers.  I will agree and wonder about their catching depth now and couldn’t guess who the next man up is.

[Riverbrian]

46 minutes ago, roger said:

I have a feeling Riverbain that the Twins are much higher on Rortvedt than you and many here.  I will confess that I may be too optimistic about the young man, but I believe they are fine with he and Jeffers.  I will agree and wonder about their catching depth now and couldn’t guess who the next man up is.

We are going to find out how high they are. ?

[MN_ExPat]

13 hours ago, h2oface said:

I now officially hate this FO. First Berrios, now Garver. And still no pitching.

Get rid of Escobar, Get rid of Pressly. Anderson. Littell. Graterol. May. Rosario. Wade. Baddoo. 

Sign Happ, Shoemaker, Colome, Rodney, Robles, Dobnak, Bailey, Perez, Parker, Dyson, Reed, Barraclough, Belisle, Cave.

And that is just off the top of my head.

I hate this Front Office. Visitors. I hate them.

[twinstalker]

15 hours ago, umterp23 said:

so the move makes some sense but also looks like a youth movement move.  Wear and tear of a catcher above age 30 can be a factor, especially after the injuries last few years. Would have liked them to move Sano, but $11MM and inconsistency had to be a factor with no deal for Sano.  If Kiriloff ends up in OF more than 1B, then Sano at 1st, then Garver could be your DH.  Next domino to fall should give us more indication of youth movement or salary constraints

 

Move makes no sense.  You just traded an asset for the equivalent of something you could have just as well signed cheaply.  That is, they gave up Garver for practically nothing.

[Craig Arko]

10 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Which TD fans are content?

Which TD fans have ever been content?

[umterp23]

4 hours ago, twinstalker said:

Move makes no sense.  You just traded an asset for the equivalent of something you could have just as well signed cheaply.  That is, they gave up Garver for practically nothing.

Like I said makes some sense, didn't say I 100% agree with it.  If the twins feel like move 31 year old catcher who has not caught over a half season of games, is blocked by a higher salary at 1st base/dh in sano and Kiriloff is the answer at 1st, then they moved Garver.  I think he shouldn't have been moved.  What the Mgmt team does now will give us an indication of youth movement or low budget financial commitment for the year.  Time will tell