Twins Trade Mitch Garver to Rangers for Shortstop Isiah Kiner-Falefa

[LA VIkes Fan]

56 minutes ago, BrooklynBrent said:

We didn't need a SHORTSTOP! We need pitching. PITCHING.

Hey Falvey, listen up. PITCHING. You nitwit! You gave up Garver for a SS, not PITCHING! 

Now we have a bunch of shortstops and one catcher? Did Falvey know that Falefa was expendable for the Rangers? Does he ever think about pitching? I hate this Front Office so bad. I hate them so much. Ruining a competitive team by chasing shiny new things. You idiots. What you need is PITCHING! Polanco isn’t the problem! You are! —This is a bad trade. Its bad. I curse Falvey with ten days of diarrhea. I curse you!

i agree that we need pitching but there's three things wrong with this statement. First, Garver by himself wasn't going to get us established MLB pitching. He could only have been the veteran part of a trade that also saw us give up a real pitching prospect. We aren't going to get real controllable major league pitching for a guy like Garver or even for Garver plus Sano. Real MLB ready pitching is going to cost us a guy  like Garver PLUS a Martin, Lewis, Caterino, Winder, etc.  Second, we got pitching; a guy that Fangraphs likes and who could be in the bullpen as early as this year or in the rotation/bullpen next year. That's the kind of pitching a 31 year old C who hits well but only plays 80-100 games a year if things are good is worth. Third, we don't have "a bunch of shortstops", we now have ONE SS and its the guy we just traded for. 

I really like Garver and hate the fact that we traded him. Still, we got a guy who is a real MLB SS for the next 2 years at least, and maybe a decent pitcher to go with him. It seems like a fair trade between a team that wants to compete NOW, the Rangers, and a team that may be a year away, the Twins.  I think it's defensible move and may actually be a win-win. I'm not a huge fan of this FO either but this trade isn't the reason to hate them; it's actually a good move.  

 

[HerbieFan]

Also...mlb.com has already slotted Henriquez as the Twins #20 prospect, one spot behind Cole Sands.  That's certainly not nothing.

[DJL44]

1 hour ago, whosafraidofluigirussolo said:

I was surprised that IKF had only 2 years of contractual control left. Which means that if Lewis isn't going to stick at short, by late 2023 they're gonna need another plan.

I'd love to see them buy out K-F arb years and lock him up to age 30. He's a great candidate for an extension coming off a relatively low base salary.

[Brandon]

So we trade a catcher and 200 OPS points to gain a SS and maybe 80 OPS points gain.  Why not resign Simmons and keep Garver? We come out ahead this way.

[Mike Sixel]

He was better last year than I thought. If he does put up two WAR at SS this year, it isn't a bad trade. I don't love it, as I really don't want Rortdvert in the majors, but I guess we'll see

[2wins87]

1 hour ago, whosafraidofluigirussolo said:

Just read the Fangraphs writeup on Henriquez (which maybe is what you're referring to) and yeah, it's encouraging. They rank him between Canterino and SWR and say he could be a candidate for the rotation at some point in 2023.

The Fangraphs team seems to be more optimistic on him as a starter than pretty much everyone else (BA had him 29th on the Ranger's list).  I do get slight Berrios vibes when they talk about his athleticism and confidence in him being able to handle the workload despite his size.

My first impression is probably that he fits in the mid teens in the Twins prospect list, and he'll still need to improve his secondaries to really have a shot at starting.  

[2wins87]

7 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

I'd love to see them buy out K-F arb years and lock him up to age 30. He's a great candidate for an extension coming off a relatively low base salary.

I would also hope that they would at least be considering an extension as well.  Locking up more years in his late 20s would certainly tip the long term balance of the trade further towards the Twins side.

[bean5302]

2.5 fWAR is the bare minimum for a starting position player who is pulling their weight. Any less than that, and somebody else on the team needs to make up for it. I guess I'm not sure why people are excited about him. He's not a good starter.

Honestly, this just goes to Falvey and Levine continuing to have little to no respect for Garver as they have demonstrated throughout his career. Here's hoping Garver remains healthy and puts up that 5-6 WAR season within his potential.

[HrbieFan]

1 hour ago, bighat said:

I'm going to chime in and agree with you here.

Mitch Garver is 31 years old - if the Twins were going to get anything for him, it would probably have to be now. They may believe his best years are behind him. Don't forget that Garver had some absolutely miserable slumps for this team, including a horrific 2020 that saw him start the year 1-for-40 or something ridiculous like that. His value at this time last year was much lower than it is now. In short, I don't think Garver is as good as most people here think he is.

Kiner-Falefa is 27, can play SS and 3B and is a monster upgrade over Simmons. The Twins must think that Jeffers/Rortvedt is the answer at C, which is a big gamble but you have to gamble sometimes when you're a GM.

Mark me down for liking this trade.

Same for me. Just a good baseball trade, need for need.

Why do I have a feeling that this moves Martin to trade chip #1 with the A's. 

[Hheimer]

A good or great defensive team is very underrated in baseball. If the new guy can play at an gold glove level and hit a little over league average, this will be a win for the twins. 

Garver was great but the guy just couldn't stay healthy. 

[DJL44]

I like this trade. The Twins trade a 1/2 time player for a full time starter at shortstop, plus they get a live arm as a sweetener. The Twins get the younger player who is better at defense at a position that is a gaping black hole in the organization at the upper levels.

Yes, they should be looking for a backup catcher for depth but a catch-and-throw guy is not hard to acquire.

People may be disappointed that this means the Twins are 100% out on Trevor Story but honestly, you never believed that was going to happen, right?

 

[USAFChief]

20 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

I'd love to see them buy out K-F arb years and lock him up to age 30. He's a great candidate for an extension coming off a relatively low base salary.

You want to extend a guy that everyone here will want replaced by opening day 2023?

[wsnydes]

21 minutes ago, 2wins87 said:

I've mentioned this somewhere before but Jeffers did post an .800 OPS in June and July when given primary catching duties due to Garver's injury.  I'm not saying I really expect him to come that close to replacing Garver's bat, but I do think a lot of people have been overly down on his bat when he's been really hampered by being forced into a platoon disadvantage so much.

The main question really is whether they get enough value back for parting with Garver's bat.  I doubt Kiner Falefa will quite get there.  He does make pretty consistent contact, so maybe there is a chance that there is a tweak that allows him to get to some power and maybe 15-20 HR in a year.  His build doesn't suggest much more power, but he is still pretty young.  Most likely they will have to hope to get something out of Henriquez as well.

Of course Garver has a few question marks too.  He was probably going to be catching less with the Twins going forward, and is not guaranteed to be able to keep catching full time with some significant injury history now and the fact that he's already well past 30.  He'll be much more replaceable if he does end up at 1B/DH as much as at catcher in the future, and they still have plenty of guys vying for some time in those roles.

I don't love the trade, but I think it's defensible, and certainly there's a chance it works out great on the Twins side, maybe a better chance than it turning out really poorly actually.  We'll see.

I've liked what I've seen from Jeffers, generally, when he's gotten consistent playing time.  But I haven't seen enough to say that I'm sold he'll continue that way.  That's where I hesitate with this.

[USAFChief]

This is a trade made by losing teams.

 

Ask yourself this...is any actually trying to win a WS handing a starting job to IKF?

Would the Dodgers? Yankees? Red Sox? 

Texas moved on, because this is a placeholder. Someone has to stand at SS on opening day. This is not a player that helps you be better than other teams. 

I couldn't be more disappointed in this FO.

[The_Real_Nick_Gordon]

It solves the shortstop issue. I just think if we are dealing off someone as good as Garver is, we should have at least come back with some major league pitchers. I just hope we can sign some pitchers before april 7. Lack of pitching will be our problem if we don't do anything about it.

[whosafraidofluigirussolo]

19 minutes ago, 2wins87 said:

The Fangraphs team seems to be more optimistic on him as a starter than pretty much everyone else (BA had him 29th on the Ranger's list).  I do get slight Berrios vibes when they talk about his athleticism and confidence in him being able to handle the workload despite his size.

My first impression is probably that he fits in the mid teens in the Twins prospect list, and he'll still need to improve his secondaries to really have a shot at starting.  

Fair point.

It does seem like this deal could be indirectly helpful with a trade for starting pitching that the Twins are almost certainly looking to make, particularly if you buy the higher end of Henriquez' evaluations. He now adds to their minor-league pitching depth if and when they have to trade from that depth.

[Linus]

Not against trading Garver but thought it would be for pitching. This pretty much tells us what they think about Lewis at SS. 

[USAFChief]

31 minutes ago, 2wins87 said:

 I'm not saying I really expect him (Jeffers) to come that close to replacing Garver's bat, but I do think a lot of people have been overly down on his bat when he's been really hampered by being forced into a platoon disadvantage so much.

 

Forced into a platoon disadvantage?

First off, he's a RH hitter, so he's always going to be at a platoon disadvantage over his career. There are more RH pitchers than LHers. 

And second, Jeffers hasn't faced an inordinate number of RH pitchers. He's had 123 PAs against LHed pitching, 232 vs RHed. 

[Mike Sixel]

17 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

This is a trade made by losing teams.

 

Ask yourself this...is any actually trying to win a WS handing a starting job to IKF?

Would the Dodgers? Yankees? Red Sox? 

Texas moved on, because this is a placeholder. Someone has to stand at SS on opening day. This is not a player that helps you be better than other teams. 

I couldn't be more disappointed in this FO.

They aren't serious contenders this year. I'm not sure what you expect at this point, realistically. 

[raindog]

6 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

They aren't serious contenders this year. I'm not sure what you expect at this point, realistically. 

12 teams make the playoffs now. They should be trying to contend nearly every year. 

[Mike Sixel]

Just now, raindog said:

12 teams make the playoffs now. They should be trying to contend nearly every year. 

There's a difference between ok contender, and serious contenders. No one can look at this pitching and think they are serious contenders.

no idea why this is in italics. 

[dex8425]

3 hours ago, Ryan_K said:

Checking out IKF baseball savant page I am not impressed. I recall he won a GG at third in 2020, but looking at his metrics from 2021 in OAA, like why not just sign Niko Goodrum?

There's like 5 guys who are going to give you what Kiner Falefa would give you this year, and they just cost money, not one of your best bats. I hate this. Makes the team worse overall. 

[Monkeypaws]

2 hours ago, theBOMisthebomb said:

Bring back La Tortuga! 

Beat me to it!

[Mike Sixel]

3 minutes ago, dex8425 said:

There's like 5 guys who are going to give you what Kiner Falefa would give you this year, and they just cost money, not one of your best bats. I hate this. Makes the team worse overall. 

Really? Who? I'm genuinely curious which free agents you think put up 2 war next year.

[gman]

I expected a trade of Garver this winter, but I did think it would be for pitching.  Trading for a decent fielding starting shortstop works out pretty good. Solid fielders behind a young pitching could make this staff look a lot better than it might otherwise.

[jorgenswest]

If the Twins are looking for a shortstop or catcher next off season I hope it is new leadership doing the search.

 

[ToddlerHarmon]

A thought I haven't seen shared: this gives them room to move Donaldson, since Arraez, Miranda, and Martin can all hit and play third competently.

That would leave them with the following age classes of position players:

Sano/Kepler/Polanco

Buxton/IKF

Jeffers/Arraez/Gordon

Kirilloff/Larnach/Rortvedt/Miranda/Martin/Lewis

So, yeah, look for Donaldson to move to a contender for a young starter

[wavedog]

Sorry to see Garver go, but this certainly does fill a gap we needed and keeps Polanco at 2B.  Of course signing Story would have done the same thing and we would have kept Garver.   Not sure what we will spend our remaining budget on.   looks like we will be finishing in the draft lottery territory for 2023.   One more thing on the trade,  I live down here in Texas Ranger land and Kiner-Falefa was a fan favorite - plays with some fire something I think the team was lacking in last year - not sure that translates into any more wins but maybe more enjoyable to watch.   

[tony&rodney]

38 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

No one can look at this pitching and think they are serious contenders.

Yes, you are correct and I agree. Why is it that the Twins pitching is in such poor shape? Why do so many TD fans seem content to run out AA and AAA pitching prospects with nobody above them to show the pups the ropes, which invariably leads to 90-110 losses? As much as I may like our young starting pitching prospects, the current guys are widely acknowledged by those outside the team to be either middle or below average compared to every other team. We could get lucky, yes. The Twins get more athletic with IK-F and that is good, but unless a minimum of two experienced starting pitchers worth watching are added via trades, this team is sunk. Why did they sign Buxton? I guess patience is in order because until Falvey declares the roster full and finished being constructed there is a chance. 

[bighat]

59 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

This is a trade made by losing teams.

 

Ask yourself this...is any actually trying to win a WS handing a starting job to IKF?

Would the Dodgers? Yankees? Red Sox? 

Texas moved on, because this is a placeholder. Someone has to stand at SS on opening day. This is not a player that helps you be better than other teams. 

I couldn't be more disappointed in this FO.

Yes but the Twins aren't the Yankees, Dodgers, or Red Sox and they never will be. Signing Trevor Story or Carlos Correa just isn't something we Twins fans can expect to happen.  Especially when the best starter on the team is a rookie who's tossed a grand total of 20 MLB innings. This is what we get. 

Now this trade isn't exactly a blockbuster but it's certainly not "disappointing".

Garver had a great year during the Juiced Ball experiment of 2019, otherwise he's a very average player. And he's getting old without much in the tank. The Twins flipped a one-year wonder for a 27 year-old Gold Glove infielder who can bat in the middle 3rd of the order and play 162 games. The downside of course is that you have to believe Jeffers is going to hit .250 this year, but it's spring and this is baseball, so we can hope.

Free agency's not done yet, and the trading has just begun. IMO we should be happy that the Twins are active and fixing holes.