Did Scott Boras Blow Up The CBA Deal?

[Doctor Gast]

I thought I'd post this so fans can decide for themselves on what happened. I've never been a Scott Boras fan, he never has cared about the sport or the fans. I believe there is some owner bias but there is probable truth to it.

[Bigfork Twins Guy]

Thanks Doc.  Interesting take.  I always have been concerned that the players involved in the discussions are the high-priced players who have their own interests, but not necessary the interests of the average ball player making lower to minimum salaries, in mind.  Obviously, Boras wants a higher take and the way to get that is to convince the high-priced players (most of his clients) to shoot for very large salaries. With the pool of funds that owners are willing to pay giving most to the "haves" means less for the "have nots".  IMO this is why we have all these very functional veterans not getting the salaries that they deserve in FA.  I say, have the entire PA take a vote on this latest management proposal or add a few lower-salaried players to the committee to balance out the decision-making process and reduce the impact Boras and his high-priced clients have.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I'm having a really hard time deciding whether I dislike Bill Madden or Scott Boras more and which one is less believable in this situation.

But I know that if Scott Boras has an outsized voice in the CBA negotiations, the MLBPA is run by idiots. Scott Boras is phenomenal at getting his clients the money but will actively burn down everyone else around them to do it. He is one of the last people who should be leaned on for advice in this situation.

[diehardtwinsfan]

It certainly wouldn't surprise me if this was true. Disappointing if that's the case. MLBPA needs to be smarter about that if their negotiators are only high priced players. That's not a fair representation of their group, but it makes sense given how the CBA directions consistently go... MLBPA has always only cared about the expensive players.

Large market teams have always cared little about revenue sharing that would lead to competitive balance.

And well, here we are. 

[AceWrigley]

It's always people with power and money that take steps to ensure they remain the people with the power and money.

[chpettit19]

Madden is not shy about his dislike of Boras. He's not exactly the best source here. He was saying the same stuff 2 years ago after covid. Boras is absolutely powerful, but I find it hard to believe he got the actual negotiators and the rest of the 1200 players in the union that he doesn't represent to just do what he wants. Of course he has sway. He represents a large chunk of the best players, and thus most powerful players, in the game. But I find it hard to believe he single handedly blew this thing up. This wreaks of a guy with a bone to pick with Boras doing the same thing he's been doing for years and blaming all of baseball's problems on the "Avenging Agent" (his favorite term for Boras).

[DocBauer]

While not a conspiracy theorist, I do think members of the media have their own agendas at times. (And I'm applying this in general, as well as to both sides of this particular situation).  I don't doubt the veracity of this report as everything stated seems very logical and possible. But, how is nobody else reporting this? And I'm asking honestly. Is there an agenda here by the press? Is this a story just breaking and we'll suddenly see a dam break?

I have to say I find all of this very disturbing. If this is true, or mostly true:

A] I believe it puts the owners in a different light despite their general tight-fisted approach.

B] Players and agents should be PISSED that Boras and a small group players, reportedly his clients, would be messing with my career and livelihood for their own ends. 

I could be very wrong here, but reports I've read in other locations have similarly indicated that an agreement may have been surprisingly close, pending a few more important details and agreements to finalize. And now, to have everything blown up so completely? I don't believe the MLBPA has to have a complete players vote to walk away from the table as they did. IDK, something just  doesn't seem right here.

[Blyleven2011]

Of this is true ,, 

Mlb should sue boris for collision  ,,, he's an agent not a negotiator representative for the players mlbpa union .. 

Boris should have no voice in negotiations through his clients 

 

Just as bad as steroids era.... cheating on a garbage can ,,, cheating anyway you call it .. 

Remember it hasn't been verified  

[ashbury]

I'm sorry, I didn't have time or patience to listen to a 30 minute video, though I listened to snippets and heard only the usual tired talking points.  But I do have time and patience to ask: can anyone summarize the evidence that Scott Boras himself exercised any kind of veto power?

Might as well say that George Soros crashed the negotiations and did something nefarious like he always does.  Scott Boras is just the convenient go-to bogeyman for the commentators who would like to advise the players that they'd be smart to take what the owners are offering.

[old nurse]

There is like 5 Boras clients on the negotiating committee.It is more than reasonable to think they would talk to their agent. It is also reasonable to think that Boras would maximize for his clients to tilt the CBA in their favor. I did not bother with the video. There have been too many half hour training videos that would have been a 5 minute read. 

[TwinsDr2021]

14 hours ago, DocBauer said:

I do think members of the media have their own agendas at times. (And I'm applying this in general, as well as to both sides of this particular situation).

 

The media has their own agenda? That can't possibly be true, just look how consistent and fair they are in covering everybody and everything. (that was sarcasm)

I believe Boras has tremendous sway, that is his job as the agent to get the absolute most for his clients regardless of whom it affects. If the Union doesn't see this, that is on them not him. The union's job is to extract the most amount of things (money, benefits, etc..) from the owners as they possibly can, and always claim the last contract was unfair.

 

[Riverbrian]

I sat on a jury once. It was a malpractice case many years ago, I sat down with the best of intentions, I was going to take my responsibility seriously, I was going to listen and I vowed to let fairness be my guide. 

I didn't know this going in but, I was really disappointed to learn that there is such a thing as a professional expert witness and it's a career. Both sides will fly in an expert witness, these professionals are paid, smooth and they very convincingly take the side they are asked to take and then they fly off to the next venue for the next professional witnessing job in an attempt to influence 12 people at a time. You have to listen to both of them skillfully contradict each other and it's really hard to listen to them once you realize that this is how they make a living.

Two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrong. Life has become a Mark Goodson, Bill Todman production. You look around the room for Kitty Carlisle and Orson Bean to help you sort through it.  

This was many years ago but I remember wondering... what happens when this concept hits the media? I mean really hits the media. 

I don't wonder anymore and I literally weep for what has happened to us. 

This isn't news... this is telling us how to feel about the news  and we don't even recognize the difference anymore. 

 

 

[big dog]

12 minutes ago, Riverbrian said:

Two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrong. Life has become a Mark Goodson, Bill Todman production. You look around the room for Kitty Carlisle and Orson Bean to help you sort through it.  

 

 

This is genius, RB, and a sad but true commentary.

Just to add- The protest singers, they're singing a protest song.

and- They wanna have a war, to keep us on our knees.

[TopGunn#22]

While I would agree, none of this has been verified, it is TRUE that several Boras clients sit on the Players negotiating committee.  It is not unreasonable nor illogical to wonder how much "juice" those players/clients have in influencing the players stance, or even what information the rank and file are receiving.  And to those who point out that it's mainly high profile/big money players on the committee BINGO !  Great point.  How much do they REALLY care about the minor leaguer, the guy just inside and just outside the 40 man roster.  I wonder about that too.

[MABB1959]

Does anyone else not care anymore?  2022 is most likely a lost year for us anyway.  I am sick of high paid athletes and when I say high paid I believe the lowest level is $500,000.  They are getting this to play a game.  The ones paid multi-million are just people who are good at a game.  I hope they sit out a year unpaid and see how they like it.  I would love to make $500,000 a year at work and I work 52 weeks a year so I have zero sympathy for any of the players.  Never a fan of owners to start with.  Let all these greedy people go without revenue or a paycheck for a year. 

I do have sympathy for others affected like the restaurants or stadium workers but the job market is good now so hopefully they land on their feet.

If you really love baseball the Saints put on a good game.  

 

[Major League Ready]

I have said on multiple occasions this wreaks of Boras.  Why ask for $115M for 1% of prearb players. Why not ask for that money for all prearb players?  Without the raise to the minimum, the pool as demanded equates to over $300K per player.  Instead, two-thirds of the total raise (increased minimum + bonus pool) would go to 1% of the players.  Who do you think dreamed this up?  How does this represent all of the players?

However, instead of focusing on who is believable, let's take the host of this session suggestion.  Look at the agreement.  Was the offer reasonable.  That would be a good indicator if it was true they were on the brink of a deal.  We should also ask ... Does it service the best interests of the game?  

1. Prearb players would get a raise in the minimum averaging $720K or 26% plus a bonus pool of $30M which raises the average to a touch over $800K which is a total increase of 41%.

2. Draft pick compensation for free agents would be eliminated.

3. Universal DH would add up to 15 high paying jobs that would replace much lower paying bench roles.  Most likely this would be more like 10 jobs.

4. International Draft Lottery – Why wouldn’t this be better for the parity and therefor the game?

5. A draft lottery system - How is this not an improvement?

6. Expanded playoffs.  Players make approximately $25K.  Fans are more engaged.  Owners get more playoff revenue.  Let’s keep in mind a significant portion of that added revenue will be spent on players.

7. Rule changes to promote more running game and faster pace of play.

8. The CBT threshold goes to $220M in 2022 going up to $230M.  MLBPA wants $238M growing to $263M.  I understand why they want this increase.  However, that’s not the question.  Should we support their desire to make the gap in parity wider given the other conditions listed above?

Should this have been adequate to play ball? 

[terrydactyls]

Former commissioner Faye Vincent said similar things in an interview yesterday.  He went so far as to say that negotiations should be taken out of the hands of owners and players and turned over to professional negotiators.  Something to think about?  He went on to say that professional negotiators could work on an overhaul of the system (which needs it) during the five-year period of a CBA to ensure a smooth transition into a new CBA in 2027.

[TwinsDr2021]

44 minutes ago, TopGunn#22 said:

It is not unreasonable nor illogical to wonder how much "juice" those players/clients have in influencing the players stance, or even what information the rank and file are receiving.

Honestly I think this case could be made for any contract negotiation, listen to the commercial for the MPLS teachers union, they want small class sizes and more social type workers hired (I am not taking sides on this and not meant to derail this thread), that may help with education and may help with the rank and file,? but it is also the goal of the union to expand its members and get more money from the tax payers (that is their number 1 job). 

I am surprised the union isn't asking for the 40 man to be expanded, that would give the union more leverage, expand its membership and have more players making MLB money. Now it may further hurt the middle guy, because it is more cheaper contracts to replace vets. I also believe the more regulation they put on the owners the more the income disparity will be come in the players. For example if teams need to hit a minimum floor, who are they are going to give that money too, a middle of the road vet or a high performance guy, I think the best business model would be to pay the best players more, and continue the path that MLB has went down, bring up young cheap guys and if they aren't stars use them and abuse them until it becomes costly then cut them loose and bring up the next guy, if they become a star they will pay them. (not much different than now, other than they will just pay the stars more, IMO)

[Squirrel]

Did he blow it up? I thought we had heard from various baseball reporters that the buzz ‘they were close’ was not true, and was something the owners leaked?

That said, I don’t like Boras and wonder because of the connections there.

That said, smoke doesn’t always indicate there’s fire.

I don’t think we’ll ever know the truth. Not sure I would handle it well if I did.

[AceWrigley]

9 minutes ago, terrydactyls said:

Former commissioner Faye Vincent said similar things in an interview yesterday.  He went so far as to say that negotiations should be taken out of the hands of owners and players and turned over to professional negotiators.  Something to think about?  He went on to say that professional negotiators could work on an overhaul of the system (which needs it) during the five-year period of a CBA to ensure a smooth transition into a new CBA in 2027.

This. Where's Kenesaw Landis when you need him, lol.

[mikelink45]

Who are the good guys?  I worry that someday people will say Boras should be in the HOF because of his impact on the game - I hate the idea, but I also would not have put Miller or any commissioner or owner in the HOF.  We have gotten to a place where external factors have taken away dialogue and compromise.  But as much as I dislike Boras - just watch a video of Manfred!

[roger]

If there is any truth to these allegations, it is downright disgusting.  Hell, more than disgusting.

Will we see baseball this year?  Guess those minor league games should be fun.  Damn shame that new 40-man guys with zero play in the big leagues can't be down at spring training and on the field opening day in AAA.  

[diehardtwinsfan]

20 hours ago, chpettit19 said:

Madden is not shy about his dislike of Boras. He's not exactly the best source here. He was saying the same stuff 2 years ago after covid. Boras is absolutely powerful, but I find it hard to believe he got the actual negotiators and the rest of the 1200 players in the union that he doesn't represent to just do what he wants. Of course he has sway. He represents a large chunk of the best players, and thus most powerful players, in the game. But I find it hard to believe he single handedly blew this thing up. This wreaks of a guy with a bone to pick with Boras doing the same thing he's been doing for years and blaming all of baseball's problems on the "Avenging Agent" (his favorite term for Boras).

well to be fair, he just needs sway with the negotiators. It never hit the 1200 for a vote. Kind of a like a congressional bill never getting out of committee. It might pass when put up for a vote, but it never gets there b/c the committee insures it won't.

 

Edit: I'd add that if the other negotiators all fall under that "high priced" category, they don't really need to talk to Boras either. Most will happily fall in line because it's best for their own bottom line.  That is a huge problem with the MLBPA if that's how they're negotiating. Their negotiators don't accurately represent the union's population.

[Brock Beauchamp]

14 minutes ago, diehardtwinsfan said:

well to be fair, he just needs sway with the negotiators. It never hit the 1200 for a vote. Kind of a like a congressional bill never getting out of committee. It might pass when put up for a vote, but it never gets there b/c the committee insures it won't.

Edit: I'd add that if the other negotiators all fall under that "high priced" category, they don't really need to talk to Boras either. Most will happily fall in line because it's best for their own bottom line.  That is a huge problem with the MLBPA if that's how they're negotiating. Their negotiators don't accurately represent the union's population.

Given how players have basically toed the line across 100% of the MLBPA, it's hard to envision there's much, if any, strife between players at different points in their careers.

For good or bad, players appear to be united.

As for the player reps, not all of them are highly paid veterans... for example, Taylor Rogers has been the Twins rep for the past couple of years. He made $6m last season and less than $2m the previous season. He's not going to be following the likes of Max Scherzer without considering how that impacts him and people like him.

[heresthething]

14 minutes ago, diehardtwinsfan said:

well to be fair, he just needs sway with the negotiators. It never hit the 1200 for a vote. Kind of a like a congressional bill never getting out of committee. It might pass when put up for a vote, but it never gets there b/c the committee insures it won't.

 

Edit: I'd add that if the other negotiators all fall under that "high priced" category, they don't really need to talk to Boras either. Most will happily fall in line because it's best for their own bottom line.  That is a huge problem with the MLBPA if that's how they're negotiating. Their negotiators don't accurately represent the union's population.

Exactly this.  And it sounds like there are multiple sources saying Scherzer has been a real problem.  Is there any oversight from the team's union reps asking what is going on?  It wasn't a secret the owners gave them a final offer.  What was the process to say no to it and who outside that negotiating team knew?  The owners will outlast them, players have an expiration date.  

[Major League Ready]

With all the angst over the failed negotiation nobody seems to have an opinion about the actual proposal.  How can anyone be upset without full consideration of the offer?  That does not seem rational.  What specifically about this offer warranted its rejection?

[South Dakota Tom]

Negotiation is what I do every day in my job so I wondered about another side note and people’s thoughts about it. It was reported that four owners (they can only lose 7 and still pass a deal) voted against even offering the current MLB proposal.  I have to believe that MLB will ensure that number gets to 7 very quickly as some kind of demonstration of “last and best” unity among owners.  Just as 100% rejection by MLBPA shows their resolve.  It is posturing rather than problem-solving.

You have a problem with the CBT threshold?  Tie it to the inflation rate.  Where to start in year one?  Add inflation to the number from 5 years ago and start there.  

I also think adding a floor to payroll in addition to the tax threshold takes care of a lot of problems with tanking and revenue sharing and can also be tied to an economic indicator to

move in future years.

 

solve the on-field issues.  Stop rewarding teams for sucking.  Have a salary floor, minimum salary and tax threshold and the money will essentially be redistributed in a reasonable way (though there will be exceptions as the overpaid vet

might hog up a large salary to hit the minimum rather than a million each to 10 other guys).  Fix the game itself.  Tie the next (2027) CBA starting point to the overall growth or contraction of the game from 2022 to 2027 and reset from there.

[Major League Ready]

2 hours ago, roger said:

If there is any truth to these allegations, it is downright disgusting.  Hell, more than disgusting.

Will we see baseball this year?  Guess those minor league games should be fun.  Damn shame that new 40-man guys with zero play in the big leagues can't be down at spring training and on the field opening day in AAA.  

We need to be careful with assumptions.  What we can do is look at how the specific terms were devised.  The one that stands out is the demands for prearb players.  The original ask was $200K increase in the minimum and $100M bonus pool which went up to $115M.

The 115M pool represents a potential additional payout equivalent to $338K per prearb player calculated in terms of full-time equivalents.  In other words, 4 players playing 40 games each = 1 FTE.  The $338K represents 64% of the total raise.  Yet, this would be distributed to 1% of the players.  Do you think the players would have voted for these funds to be split 64/36 in favor of 1% or would they have voted to give the increase equally to all players?
What would be the difference to Boras?  If he represents 10% of the players currently in the league (not Milb) and he makes a 10% commission, that equates to 1% to Boras Corporation.  IDK what % he gets so I will solve for a ratio so that it does not matter.

Now, if 36% of the money goes to 10% he gets .36%.  Then, if 64% goes to the elite players of whom he represents half.  He gets 3.2% plus the .36 or almost 4 times what he would have made if all players received the total proposed increase to prearb players.

Do you think this is coincidental?  Boras is smart but he is also likely part of the problem not the solution.
 

[chpettit19]

28 minutes ago, heresthething said:

Exactly this.  And it sounds like there are multiple sources saying Scherzer has been a real problem.  Is there any oversight from the team's union reps asking what is going on?  It wasn't a secret the owners gave them a final offer.  What was the process to say no to it and who outside that negotiating team knew?  The owners will outlast them, players have an expiration date.  

The team reps were on zoom calls all week with the people actually in the room. Every time there was a report that the players and league reps were going back to their sides of the stadium to discuss the player reps for the entire league were on zoom calls. The player reps then were passing the info to the rest of the 40-man players through group texts. It's certainly not just Scherzer and Andrew Miller making all the decisions for the players. The entire union is kept up to date with what's going on and why the negotiators are doing what they're doing.

[chpettit19]

56 minutes ago, diehardtwinsfan said:

well to be fair, he just needs sway with the negotiators. It never hit the 1200 for a vote. Kind of a like a congressional bill never getting out of committee. It might pass when put up for a vote, but it never gets there b/c the committee insures it won't.

 

Edit: I'd add that if the other negotiators all fall under that "high priced" category, they don't really need to talk to Boras either. Most will happily fall in line because it's best for their own bottom line.  That is a huge problem with the MLBPA if that's how they're negotiating. Their negotiators don't accurately represent the union's population.

The actual negotiators are Bruce Meyer and Tony Clark. Bruce Meyer is being paid a lot of money to get the players what they want. The entire 1200 (roughly, not every team has a full 40-man) roster of union players has been kept up to date as much as they want to be. Player reps have been on zoom calls the entire time being kept up to date after every proposal. The union appears to be quite united with what they're looking for and it's not based on just a few high priced stars or Scott Boras. Jared Walsh even talked about taking BP with his ear buds in so if there was an update on things he was available at all times and would be able to gather info and pass it along to his teammates so they could stay updated.

The players have been discussing their desires with each other for years. They have given Meyer their list of demands and now it's on him to get them what they want. Characterizing Boras or Scherzer or anyone as being able to single handedly blow anything up is mischaracterizing how the negotiations actually work. Boras isn't getting a copy of the new offer and giving a thumbs up or thumbs down like a king overseeing a gladiator match. The union stance has been discussed and decided over months and years of union talk. Boras doesn't have the power to step in and just shut it down.