Manfred Announces Universal DH: Will That Result in Sano or Donaldson Being Traded to an NL Team

[DJL44]

11 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

If the depth you are talking about is Rortvedt (Catcher), Gordon (middle fielder and should never DH), Lewis (in the minors), Celestiono (4th OF as of now), Larnach (Not sure where he even starts) and Rooker (DH), I would argue that isn't really any depth, let alone plenty.

Miranda, Larnach, Kiriloff, Donaldson, Arraez and Austin Martin

[DocBauer]

Just tossing this out there, but LF is wide open right now for the Twins. And while I would love for Larnach to step forward day one and grab it, he might need a little St Paul time to get ramped up. Same with Celestino. A time share with Arraez/Rooker/ Etc? 

My point is AK may not just be moved to 1B all at once. He may be part of the LF equation for 2022. That gives Sano more "value" as a 1B and not merely a DH. 

And while it may seem we have a crunch at DH, how often do uph see a roster remain intact for the whole season? We always talk about needing 8-9 SP for a full season ar some point, and about a dozen RP before it's all said and done, but you also need about 18 position players to get through a season.

By all means trade Sano if it's a good deal or he's part of a larger package. I'm all for it. I believe he has value, but not sure his trade value back to the Twins is enough to eliminate his 2022 presence while breaking in a handful of youngsters. 

[Mike Sixel]

If you put Martin in LF, you have a great defensive OF with him, Buxton, Kepler. With this staff, defense might matter....OTOH, I'm not sure that is the case with AK, Larnarch, or Arraez.

[TwinsDr2021]

12 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

If you put Martin in LF, you have a great defensive OF with him, Buxton, Kepler. With this staff, defense might matter....OTOH, I'm not sure that is the case with AK, Larnarch, or Arraez.

If his bat is even average that might be the best solution, of course he isn't on the 40 yet, so that means somebody has to be removed, unless of course they use Maeda's, which I kind of assume will be used on a pitching prospect, but maybe not.

[Mike Sixel]

6 minutes ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

If his bat is even average that might be the best solution, of course he isn't on the 40 yet, so that means somebody has to be removed, unless of course they use Maeda's, which I kind of assume will be used on a pitching prospect, but maybe not.

I'm not worried about 40 man spots, but I can see where others might be. This team will 100% need guys not on the current 40 man next season.

[Major League Ready]

12 hours ago, DJL44 said:

Who is going to trade for Sano when they could just sign Nelson Cruz?

IDK that Cruz will be all that sought after.  His numbers were pedestrian after the trade.  He was 10th on the Rays with a wRC+ of 96.

 

[Old fox]

Why not go the football way 9 offense & 9 defensive players, 14 pitchers &  8 bench players for a total 40 man roster. Even though wrote this I not ready for this wild make-over to baseball . The Sano~ and Donaldson quagmire is a no right or wrong question.  To me Donaldson is worth more to the Twin because what he contributes more than Sano~. Donaldson’s  seems to have more utility to the Twins .

[TwinsDr2021]

20 minutes ago, DJL44 said:

Miranda, Larnach, Kiriloff, Donaldson, Arraez and Austin Martin

If Sano is gone, You could put Miranda at 3B, Kiriloff at 1B, JD at DH, and one of the other 3 has to play left, and Martin isn't even on the 40 man yet, so lets say Arraez in Left, with Larnarch, Rooker, Celestino and Martin as backups, which I guess you could believe they all will be at least average, but with that you have two unknowns starting in the infield, and backs are unknown as well, if you are the FO are you really betting your career on that all the while banking your pitching staff on rookies. I wouldn't, unless of course somebody was willing to pay quite a bit for Sano (I mean like the Cruz trade good).

If I am the FO, I am starting JD, some SS, Polanco, Sano, AK, Buxton, Kepler, Garver, and Arraez at DH (with JD, Sano, Garver, and others helping out there), and forcing Miranda and Larnach to prove they belong by tearing it up in AAA.

 

 

[TwinsDr2021]

6 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

I'm not worried about 40 man spots, but I can see where others might be. This team will 100% need guys not on the current 40 man next season.

I usually am not worried either, but I see the chance of them using quite a bit of spots on pitchers this year, IMO I think Martin is going to have to show his bat is better than Celestino was last year.

[bean5302]

4 hours ago, Nashvilletwin said:

Sano is ecstatic about the NL DH. He’s essentially on a one year prove it deal. This is a huge year for his future prospects - he is highly motivated. If he is ever going to have a big year, this is it. Don’t see the Twins moving him.

Re JD, the new rule definitely increases his trade value. We could get more in players and/or salary relief.  All things being equal, I’d prefer a longer term solution of Story and Miranda at SS and 3B than a “take your pick of the other options within the organization none of which look good” and Donaldson.

So, if the payroll is important this year, trade JD and sign Story - it will cost about the same. 

I mean, Sano is on a one year prove it deal anyway. His value has been pretty modest in general for a few years now. If he was a free agent today, I doubt he'd get more than a 1 year $5-8MM contract. He's 1 bad year from taking a MiLB contract.

[bean5302]

49 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

IDK that Cruz will be all that sought after.  His number were pedestrian after the trade.  He was 10th on the Rays with a wRC+ of 96.

 

I think @Brock Beauchamp said essentially the same thing... but Sano owned a wRC+ of 91 at the All Star break. Cruz comes with a more stable track record and he's cheaper. Guessing 1 year $8MM, assuming he doesn't retire. I think he may have to settle for much less if the season is delayed (which is appears is marching towards increasingly likely) as I think the perception is older players take more time to get up to speed on the reflexes, etc. If the lockout continues much longer, I could see Cruz needing to take a 1 year $5MM deal with incentives.

[cHawk]

If the Twins were to trade one of them, I’d much rather see Sanó go than Donaldson. I don’t think I’m the only one who thinks that. The problem with trading Sanó is that it’s going to be quite hard to find a trade partner.

[Mike Sixel]

I think this is the year for Sano, and he's dealt at the deadline when the Twins' lack of pitching has doomed them. 

[TheLeviathan]

Baseball discussion!  Yes!

*reads thread*

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

forcing Miranda and Larnach to prove they belong by tearing it up in AAA.

Larnach needs repetitions, true. Don't you think Miranda has totally shown that he is ready? Use his reports for years, his adjustments last year and the subsequent results from his increased discipline. Like Kubel and a few others, when a player is so dominant a team needs to plug the player into the order.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

24 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

Larnach needs repetitions, true. Don't you think Miranda has totally shown that he is ready? Use his reports for years, his adjustments last year and the subsequent results from his increased discipline. Like Kubel and a few others, when a player is so dominant a team needs to plug the player into the order.

Yes.

[tarheeltwinsfan]

8 hours ago, Brock Beauchamp said:

The Twins should only trade expensive players if they plan to spend that money elsewhere and there's no indication they plan to do that given how they acquired zero good starters before the lockout.

And if they're not going to pay for pitching, they should go ahead and keep their good hitters in hopes they can slug their way to some victories.

What about paying Story with Donaldson's money once JD is traded to the NL?

[Squirrel]

35 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Baseball discussion!  Yes!

*reads thread*

Start a discussion thread if this isn’t to your liking! ?

[tarheeltwinsfan]

4 hours ago, gman said:

The only problem I have with trading Sano if he has a hot start is, why would you trade him if he has a hot start? We've waited 6 years for him to have a hot start. He may be a better DH than any other position, but we're not getting rid of the DH rule and we'll need a good slugger in the middle which I think he will be.

What word fits the definition of doing the same thing for 6 years and  getting the same result then doing the same thing again for the 7th year and expecting a different result ?

[tarheeltwinsfan]

8 hours ago, tarheeltwinsfan said:

I contend the Twins should trade Sano or Donaldson to an NL team as soon as the current  lockout rules allow.  Frees up Arraez to be the Twins DH more, Miranda to be 3B (Donaldson is not as good as he used to be fielding due to age and injuries) and Kirilloff to be 1B (Sano is not a good fielding 1B).There are reasonable options for substitutes at each of these positions (Arraez, Garver and Rooker at DH, Arraez and Gordon at 3B, Rooker and Garver at 1B). Plus Lewis, Martin, Rortvedt and Larnach are  in the wings. 

This has been a great discussion. In summation I guess  most would agree it all depends on who the Twins would receive in a trade for Sano or Donaldson. And I contend now is a good time to find out.. There's no harm in asking. Thank you to all who posted on this topic. 

[South Dakota Tom]

Agree there’s no harm in asking, always.  I’m generally in favor of keeping Sano and JD to start the season, unless trading JD leads directly to those dollars being spent on Trevor Story.

I do see a problem with the NL DH being that they aren’t creating an additional roster spot.  Some teams probably already have the late-inning designated “we need a homer” pinch hitter on their roster already and will just promote those at-bats.

[jorgenswest]

It does make me wonder how the algorithms at BTV will be adjusted. Rosters sizes did not get larger. I don’t think teams are spending more money as a result. There may be a shift in values but if the value of players like Sano and Donaldson increases where will we see the decrease? I don’t think the decrease will come from NL pitching staffs. They now face the burden of the DH.

[Rosterman]

Means Cruz will have a job and might even be able to get a two-year contract!

 

Donaldson would be a geat pickup if a team has a rookie third baseman.

 

Otherwise, don't think there are any shortages of possible DH candidates already on msot National League teams. It will be more of finding someone to replace the player on the field so the player can be a DH.

 

But...yes, I would listen to any offers for Sano!

[DocBauer]

2 hours ago, TwinsDr2021 said:

If Sano is gone, You could put Miranda at 3B, Kiriloff at 1B, JD at DH, and one of the other 3 has to play left, and Martin isn't even on the 40 man yet, so lets say Arraez in Left, with Larnarch, Rooker, Celestino and Martin as backups, which I guess you could believe they all will be at least average, but with that you have two unknowns starting in the infield, and backs are unknown as well, if you are the FO are you really betting your career on that all the while banking your pitching staff on rookies. I wouldn't, unless of course somebody was willing to pay quite a bit for Sano (I mean like the Cruz trade good).

If I am the FO, I am starting JD, some SS, Polanco, Sano, AK, Buxton, Kepler, Garver, and Arraez at DH (with JD, Sano, Garver, and others helping out there), and forcing Miranda and Larnach to prove they belong by tearing it up in AAA.

 

 

The only problem here, in your proposed lineup, is you've doubled up at either 1B or DH. Someone has to play LF. But I generally agree with your post.

The problem with LF, as of this moment, is not bodies or options, it's "readiness" as much as anything. And this post is about Sano, primarily, and his affect on the lineup/roster with or without him.

Is this the year where Rooker suddenly grows as a ML hitter, improves his defense even a little bit, and proves his milb career and flash in 2020 is for real? Arraez was thrown into LF with little or zero experience and told to basically play a certain spot and not allow anything to be hit over his head. (Believe his initial instruction was to touch the wall and take a certain number of steps IN to position himself). I watched quite a few games of him in LF. He's not good. But he gave effort, and I've seen worse! 

Larnach and Celestino were brought up too early. I honestly believe in BOTH of them. And a fully healthy Larnach might build on what he did/saw/learned and be ready from DAY ONE, but the smart play is probably a month or more at St Paul to put it all together. Ditto for Celestino.

IMO, that leaves Kirilloff as a part-time LF/1B and Sano splitting time at 1B/DH. I think Miranda is the real deal. He's not some flier who had a "fortunate" season. Doesn't mean he has to be handed a spot. Nothing wrong, everyone healthy, with him waiting for an opportunity after the season starts. Again, you need more than just 13 guys all season. Opportunity will be there.

[DocSavage]

Sayno can go.. along with Lurch ( Larnach),  Rooker, Garver and anyone else that isn't a lock to be part of the team after this rebuild... and they are rebuilding.. any team that has ZERO proven Starting pitchers ( including Bud Bundy and his shoulder..) is in rebuild mode... oh they may lie to sell more tickets.. retool... sounds like a penis transplant.. .. but even an average rotation has virtually no chance of being anything more than a pretender for a ring.. Why the Dynamic Duo isn't out the FO door is beyond me.. they haven't shown anything in drafts or traded or even free agent signings  some chimp with a dartboard couldn't produce...

[DocBauer]

3 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

If you put Martin in LF, you have a great defensive OF with him, Buxton, Kepler. With this staff, defense might matter....OTOH, I'm not sure that is the case with AK, Larnarch, or Arraez.

Mike, I LOVE the potential of Martin! What he did this year is all the more impressive considering he went from college, missed a year, then shot straight to AA at a new position(s) while battling a hand injury that robbed him of power. And I'd play him as much as I could at SS, for as long as I can, because:

#1] His athleticism is quality and a light may come on and suddenly he looks like a decent option with room to grow there, OR...

#2] at worst he can be an "emergency" or occasional option there.

I also believe his future is in LF. And that's not a negative. It's about constructing a roster and utilizing his bat and abilities. Miranda appears to be a welcome future 3B. Polanco isn't going anywhere soon at 2B. Martin will be in LF, back up CF, cover 3B and 2B as necessary, and maybe be able to cover SS here and there if situations allow.

But he also needs more time to adjust to pro ball and get his power game back. Not sure if you were mentioning him for LF in 2022 or later, but wanted to share my opinion.

[DocBauer]

2 hours ago, cHawk said:

If the Twins were to trade one of them, I’d much rather see Sanó go than Donaldson. I don’t think I’m the only one who thinks that. The problem with trading Sanó is that it’s going to be quite hard to find a trade partner.

We generally agree here. Forgetting contract numbers, Donaldson is still a quality 3B, albeit with decreased range. His production is still quality and he provides experience and leadership, something impossible to measure, but remains very real. Now, there is a "red ass" part of him that isn't always "likeable" but who cares? Maybe the young players need a little bit of that?

I do disagree, however, that the Twins wouldn't find a trade partner for Sano. The question, IMO, is the VALUE returned for such a trade made. I've watched many inter-league games and I disagree with those who believe NL teams just have a ready bat to "plug in" to the DH spot. NL teams are built, and have been built for decades, to play in the NL. I can't think of a single NL team that kept a PH/reserve bat on their roster JUST FOR DH duties since inter-league play began. It's very true that when a NL team was playing an AL team they might put a better defensive player in the lineup, OR someone to give a regular player a half day off. But their rosters haven't been BUILT for those games, unless they might be someone like the Dodgers who had so much depth and versatility that it didn't matter.

Also remember, until 2021, roster size was 25 and not 26. (Personally, I'm still hoping for a 27-28 man roster because I think time, change, and 2020 showed the game is changing, but a different discussion and different time). If I'm a NL team looking to put together a roster with the DH full time, I'm VERY interested in Sano. As a FO, I KNOW what he is and has been! He's inconsistent as hell, or at least slow to start. But when the season is done, he's going to carry my lineup for a few weeks from the #5-7 spot with 30HR and 20+ doubles power at the DH spot, and I don't have anyone else who can do that. He can also play a decent 1B and passable 3B if needed here and there.

I don't think finding a trade partner is hard. I think it's about value return for what he might bring to the Twins in 2022 vs what you get back. Again, trade him if there is real value individually, or part of a package. But, IMO, there are a lot of NL teams that would love to get him based on career production and OPS production.

[DocBauer]

2 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

Larnach needs repetitions, true. Don't you think Miranda has totally shown that he is ready? Use his reports for years, his adjustments last year and the subsequent results from his increased discipline. Like Kubel and a few others, when a player is so dominant a team needs to plug the player into the order.

Man, I can't tell you how much I agree with your post! I'd like it twice if I could, lol.

Again, it would be awesome if Larnach didn't need a little more time and was ready DAY ONE, but I'm going to agree with you that he just needs a little more time. But I think he's going to be really good.

And I fully agree with Miranda doing everything to prove himself. As I stated before, he's not some flier late round pick. He was a top pick that the FO has just been waiting to put it all together. I still can't fathom why he didn't play in September last year. That is one of the few times I look at the FO and wonder WTH? 

I DO THINK a prospect, even a TOP prospect, might be allowed a little leeway in regard to promotion. As part of this OP, pitching is still the biggest question mark, and not position players, even  though we're talking about Sano and Donaldson. Seems Sano is the lightening rod. 

And even if the Twins stand pat positional wise, isn't there still room for Miranda if he begins the year at St Paul? I'm NOT talking about holding service time down. And I would hate for that to happen. BS to me. But if Sano and Donaldson are NOT part of any trades once the CBA eventually happens, I could see Miranda starting 2022 at St Paul NOT as a ST issue, but rather as a roster in flux and him just waiting for first promotion.

[TheLeviathan]

2 hours ago, Squirrel said:

Start a discussion thread if this isn’t to your liking! ?

We are all too desperate for worthwhile conversation.  We are several steps past "welp...how bout this weather we're having?"  It shows.

Stupid lockout.

[jimbo92107]

I would definitely trade Miguel Sano. Mostly it is to free up spots for younger prospects, but also it's to give Sano a fresh start on a new team. Maybe the Twins ruined him the way they screwed up David Ortiz. Maybe a team that lets him rip every pitch he wants will find themselves a monster home run hitter, still young enough to play adequate first base. 

He's served his time in Minnesota. Set him free. Let him go, like Ortiz and Garnett. Maybe he can still be a superstar, just not here. 

On the other hand, if you think he's just a flop, then it's also time to let him go. Either way, it's time to see if some other combination of players works better for this team.