3 Players That Could Surprisingly Help the 2022 Twins

[Major League Ready]

12 minutes ago, DocBauer said:

You are not incorrect. But honestly, take a moment to look at his milb numbers year to year. He was young at every level, promoted fairly aggressively, and showed gradual but real improvement year to year. And his OB will show he wasn't exactly an automatic out. And there's power still residing within him. 21yo at AA and 23yo in 2021. I'm not saying he's another AJ...though I wish he was...but if you look at age and development, you might be surprised.

Good point Doc.  I love watching this young man behind the plate.  I will be pulling for him.

[jorgenswest]

Gordon had a few years of significant health issues that really weakened his body in a time he should have been building it up. Those weaknesses had to impact his bat and defense. I hope that he comes into the season having built up this winter and turns some heads with both the bat and the glove.

[DocBauer]

3 hours ago, Dman said:

Rortvedt is our best defensive catcher hands down.  With Mitch getting older and all the injuries behind the plate I can see the Twins trying to give him time at 1st and DH when it makes sense. Jeffers is still a work in progress with the bat as well and a tandum of lefty Rortvedt and righty Jeffers seems like the future to me.  Catchers get hurt a lot so having three guys who can be play there is good.  I like that we have Rortvedt in the wings and I bet he will play a fair bit this coming year.

Still not in love with Gordons somewhat wimpy bat but he is very plug and play and one of the few guys with any speed on this team so he has a solid role.  Like others have mentioned I am not so sure how long he will have that role with an even better player in Martin likely being ready soon.  We will see what happens and I hope Nick proves me wrong but I think he could be a trade candidate at some point.

Celestino is the one we need to succeed because we need Buxton and right field insurance.  If he can prove he belongs that will be huge for this team to have another plus runner and decent bat in the outfield.  He has a place ready on the team if he can prove he belongs.  We don't have anyone else with his skillset close to ready so we really need him to be successful and make it.

I think all three guys will help this team quite a bit if they can improve on what they did last year.

Once again, we are the same page in most everything.

As I just rambled on about regarding Rortvedt, I wish he was AJ part 2. I see him as a cross of Butera and Castro. And if I'm right, that makes him an excellent #2 and platoon partner with Jeffers for the future. Again, I just hope he gets most of 2022 at St Paul to work on his bat and his power because the defense is already there. Agree also with Garver getting time at DH because I think there's enough offense/depth to NOT have a full time DH. Arraez, Donaldson, Miranda, Sano, Garver, we don't need a full time DH.

I'm higher on Gordon than you are though. Once again, the kid needed to add a title weight/muscle vs losing what he had and now have to gain that back. I felt like I was watching him wearing his father's uniform as a 16yo last year. Someone please feed this kid some massive protein and get him in a gym! But his history has always been one of learning and adapting to each level. I expect at least a slightly better hitter in 2022. I love his speed and base running. He's OK/solid at 6  spots defensively. I DO AGREE that his time with the Twins might be limited due to Arraez, Steer and Julien already present and maybe a year away. 

We also agree on Celestino, though again hopefully he gets a couple months of AAA to continue his development. Larnach probably needs the same. Wallner probably needs a full year before he's ready. And Martin? He's going to be our LF, and soon. He will get over his hand/wrist issue that plagued him some last year, and he will make adjustments on his power potential, and he will be able to also play CF and  cover 2B and 3B and MAYBE even some SS as a full time player who has great versatility as needed. But just being honest, he needs some time. It's pretty tough to go from college to not playing for a year, going straight to AA with a nagging injury, and then straight to MLB. I'm 100% OK if he needs a full season to adjust and ramp up and get himself right.

[Dman]

1 hour ago, DocBauer said:

At some point all 3 of these guys are going to be and contribute, even assuming/hoping Buxton escapes bad injury as is good for 120+ games. (He's not the only OF that could end up hurt at some point after all).

Celestino's floor, IMO, is that of a valuable and versatile 4th OF who provides a bit of everything. His ceiling is a solid/quality starting OF who again provides a bit of everything. The question is just how well and consistently he hits, gets OB and how much pop/power he develops. I think he's got a nice future either way. Hopefully he's not needed for a couple of months so he can continue the groove he had to end 2021 at AAA.

I think Rortvedt is being understood a bit as a hitter, and I hope I'm correct on that. He's never been old for any level he's played at and he has shown some growth as a batter and some gradual improvement at each level. He's had some poor BA performances and some decent ones. In 2019 he got half a season at AA and was OK at .239/.332/.355/.687. Acceptable for a young 21yo, defense first catcher, but not exactly anything to salivate over. But still, only 21yo at AA. Obviously he missed 2020. As a 23yo he was forced to play more, and early than probably expected, at the ML level due to Garver's surgery. I think it speaks to the Twins belief in him they passed over the veteran Telis in favor of him. His numbers at AAA were just fine for a young player getting his first sampling of that level. I have no clue how good of a hitter he may become, or how much XB power he might develop despite being a strong and well built young man, but he's shown enough improvement level to level in his milb career to believe he isn't done growing yet. I think he's going to be better than just a defensive catcher wit some pop who only hits .190. Even if he only becomes a .225-.230ish hitter with defense and power he can be a valuable piece. I am hoping for a bit more, but I'd take that kind of production from my #2 catcher. Like Celestino, the best scenario for him is ML health and he can sit at St Paul most of the year and just work on his bat and gain additional experience, filling in when necessary.

Barring a poor ST I think Gordon is a lock for opening day. No need to rehash missing 2020 entirely due to covid and the weight/strength loss that he couldn't afford. While never a great hitter or OB guy at any level, he seldom embarrassed himself and showed improvement at every level he's played at. Despite looking like he was in a uniform a size too large with the Twins in 2021 he again didn't embarrass himself despite pedestrian numbers. His bat is quick enough to turn on and drive a pitch once in a while. If he gains weight/strength back and gains a little more plateawareness, wch has been his previous MO, he might actually be a fairly decent hitter for the super-utility role it looks like his destination will be. And there is real worth in that despite disappointment in his initial draft status. I love his speed when on base and was completely surprised at how well he learned CF/OF on the fly, despite some bumps in the road. He and Kepler can both provide some backup CF play for a Buxton day off provided it's not extended. That could mean an extra bat is kept.

And I'd like to add my own #4 to this list. I've said before and say again, I think people may be sleeping on Strotman because he's not 23yo and pitched poorly after coming over in the TB trade. I remind again that he was rated above Ryan before his TJ surgery in the Ray's system. Healthy again, post the lost 2020 season, he bypassed AA and went straight to AAA where he posted fine numbers across the board except for higher BB rates. Not sure that should be a surprise considering the layoff, the jump, and the general belief that touch/control comes later than velocity after TJ. As to his poor performance at St Paul? He says he was trying too hard. Maybe. But maybe it was that, the transition, plus running out of gas. He has the frame and consistent mid 90's velocity, a few solid secondary offerings, and has reported he's working on a 5th possible offering to add or replace something else in his repertoire. I wouldn't be shocked if he's in the rotation at any point in 2022 and shows potential there. I think the "bullpen option" is very premature at this point and is a possibility for almost ANY young arm. 

Nice take!  I like it.  I think Rortvedt can hit your .220 to .240 range with a mid 700's OPS and with the elite defense he brings I think that will be enough.  I just don't see him being much better than that.  I don't know exactly why but lot's of defensive first catchers never do any better with the bat than when they started.  Sometimes the light comes on late and you are correct he has been young for the levels most of the way up so no reason to overly pessimistic but also remember trends do tend to remain trends so he needs to break out before it is too late IMO.  He was really mashing in AAA for a while there so I have some hope but he did fall back to earth there as well.  Big year for Ben and the bat and a late start to the season likely isn't going to help.

I really like your Strotman take and I feel the same way.  I think he is just bit more pitching feel away from being a solid starter.  I get that, that is easier said than done but his delivery is so smooth, he has the velocity he just needs to find the right mix and I have to believe he could be a good one.  If both he and Ryan become viable rotation pieces the Twins will be well on their way to a much needed pitching pipeline. With Winder, Sands, Balazovich and Canterino still waiting in the wings for the other spots.

 

[Samuel Erwin]

I do not know how much Retvordt will help. We already have two young catchers who show great talent. Gordon and Celestino are both great young players and i have high hopes for them!!

 

[The_Real_Nick_Gordon]

I love how this article is written. Ben is such a good defensive catcher, it will be interesting to see what he can do next season. Gordon is so good and my favorite player on the team right now. Celestino has the potential to be really great and it will be fun to see him progress.

[cHawk]

1 hour ago, The_Real_Nick_Gordon said:

I love how this article is written. Ben is such a good defensive catcher, it will be interesting to see what he can do next season. Gordon is so good and my favorite player on the team right now. Celestino has the potential to be really great and it will be fun to see him progress.

Welcome to TD!

[HrbieFan]

Gordon did play some SS down the stretch and did fine. I'd rather roll him out vs some over the hill Simmons

[miracleb]

If any of these three are playing substantial innings, it will be tough for the Twins to be and 80 win team.  Fill-ins at best.

[Kipp35]

16 hours ago, se7799 said:

I would bet just about anything that Buxton will play start and play more games in CF than Celestino.  Care to wager?  

Are you suggesting that the Twins get a different person to play CF? Because you can't possibly think a guy who averages just 70 games played per year, over his seven year career (this includes his ONE year of 140) will play the majority of the season?

[old nurse]

14 hours ago, roger said:

That is true, .679 career minor league OPS.

He began as an 18 year old from Verona Wi putting up an OPS in the mid-to-upper .500’s his first two years.  Since, his OPS has gone up every year, reaching .750 last year at AAA.  
 

Sometimes career minor league stats don’t tell the entire story.  Consistent progress may be a more important indicator of a player’s potential.  I expect that may be the case with Ben.

To get to major league average would be a huge step. The original post that you assailed stated he Ben would not be an everyday catcher with his hit tool. Constant progress is one thing, the amount of progress needed to be a major league average hitter is a very limiting factor. He would still need to hit better against the highest level of pitching. Like I said very very rare

[MABB1959]

So SS choice:  Sign a highly paid player? Go with Royce Lewis/Gordon and see what you have?

Outfield:  Play Celestino and move Kepler to 4th outfielder to see what he has?

This year seems to be the year for all 4 of these players to compete to win the full-time job for 2023.  

[baul0010]

22 hours ago, Battle ur tail off said:

Between Gordon, Martin, and Lewis. Our SS is in the organization. If none of those 3 can handle it at the major league level, then it is a failure of epic proportions with the amount of draft and trade capital used to acquire those guys. 

I think in a perfect world one of those three would be our shortstop...but I don't think they'd all be playing all over the diamond if the Twins through they were a future S.S.

[roger]

1 hour ago, old nurse said:

To get to major league average would be a huge step. The original post that you assailed stated he Ben would not be an everyday catcher with his hit tool. Constant progress is one thing, the amount of progress needed to be a major league average hitter is a very limiting factor. He would still need to hit better against the highest level of pitching. Like I said very very rare

Sorry, but I must disagree old nurse.  Ben has continued to improve his hitting at every level as he has moved up.  No reason to expect that he will not become a solid major league hitter, eventually.  Give him another year at St. Paul with a few stops at Target Field and I expect he will be a solid hitter come 2023 or 2024.  Add his defense and I expect we will see him either alternating with a right handed catcher or as the Twins #1 catcher at some point.  

I will admit that I have been biased about this young man since he was drafted.  After all, my wife lived in Verona when we met, and that's worked out awfully well for me.  No reason Ben can't work out just as well for the Twins!

[Battle ur tail off]

41 minutes ago, baul0010 said:

I think in a perfect world one of those three would be our shortstop...but I don't think they'd all be playing all over the diamond if the Twins through they were a future S.S.

I'll be honest, I have zero faith the Twins even know what they are doing when it comes to infielders. They have done nothing but a terrible job with them since Tom Kelly left here. 

If you have a damn athlete with a strong arm and soft hands, then its up to you to make them a SS.

[Doctor Gast]

I like your article Cody and you stating who could help the most this season. We can't make the same mistake as we did last year, which is depending too much on Cave and non-established prospects. So I don't expect a lot from any of them but at the same time, I hope they make the next step.

Realistically, Gordon has established himself more of the 3 and even Larnach, so I expect him to help the Twins more and earlier in 2022 in the utility role. That being said, IMO Gordon has the least upside and he'll have the least impact on the Twin in the more distant future.

I really like Rodvedt's defensive and arm, if Garver or Jeffers gets hurt, Rodvedt's defense will benifit the club. IMO his LH bat will eventually come around and he'll become our premier catcher.

I really like Celestino and hope he could step up and be our CF sub. But again it's fool hearty to make the same mistake as last year and make him or (heaven forbid) Cave as Plan A. Although Kepler is a better solution, it severely down grade CF & RF. Past assumptions that Buxton is Superman and a viable CF sub is not necessary, has proved be fantasy. Even if healthy Buxton would need a break. Since we don't have an established true CF in the organization to temporary sub, we need to go outside.

[baul0010]

1 hour ago, Battle ur tail off said:

I'll be honest, I have zero faith the Twins even know what they are doing when it comes to infielders. They have done nothing but a terrible job with them since Tom Kelly left here. 

If you have a damn athlete with a strong arm and soft hands, then its up to you to make them a SS.

I'd even take softish hands and an average arm!

[se7799]

6 hours ago, Kipp35 said:

Are you suggesting that the Twins get a different person to play CF? Because you can't possibly think a guy who averages just 70 games played per year, over his seven year career (this includes his ONE year of 140) will play the majority of the season?

I was responding to your statement that said Celestino would start more games in center over Buxton by a big margin.  I understand he has only averaged 70 per.  But I still take the over of 81 for Buxton.  Friendly wager coming possibly?

[joefish]

On 2/2/2022 at 5:28 AM, Karbo said:

With no ss on the roster I wonder what the coaches have seen that sour them on giving Gordon a shot. He played there his entire minor league career so there must be some flaw they see. Anyone know what it is?

What a great question. Why not keep him in his best position? 

[joefish]

On 2/2/2022 at 6:39 AM, mikelink45 said:

Unless there are trades all three of these players are essential to 2022.  Celestino should be the fourth outfielder.  Gordon showed he can step up.  Rortvedt is the obvious #3 catcher and they often need a call up for injury.  What I hope is that they do not go backwards and reinstall Jake Cave.  

With no changes there is no option but to put Polanco at SS and I think Gordon is his backup.  The OF should have Larnach, Buxton, Kepler and Celestino should be back up.  Second base is Arraez/Polanco/Gordon/Miranda.  3B Donaldson/Arraez/Miranda and 1B Kiriloff/Sano with DH Sano/Rooker/Donaldson and Catcher Garver/Jeffers - Rortvedt.  

I would like to see Miranda get more ABs, but this would require a trade.   The question I would have for the three of them is - will one of them become the LaMonte Wade of 2022.

Wouldn't Polanco also be a step backward at SS? In my mind it would be.

[C_frommn]

I think Gordon will have the Most Impact. on the Twins, He is an excellent player they the Twins need to settle on where he will fit once, he has his Place and gets Comfortable look out. Celestino was hit by nerves, it was to be expected he knew he was in Buxton's spot and could be removed at a Moment's notice. with everyone expecting Buxton like performance w/o getting to know about him and how he does the things he does. it should be expected.

[mikelink45]

9 hours ago, joefish said:

Wouldn't Polanco also be a step backward at SS? In my mind it would be.

It could be, or he could surprise and be an all-star again.  The issue with the Twins is that they seem to have all 2Bs or DH/1B and we need to fill all the positions.  It is a good situation for trades, but until then Polanco is the best guy on the current roster. 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

On 2/2/2022 at 4:27 PM, old nurse said:

His minor league stats would be an indication of his hit tool.  A career OPS of somewhere around .650 would make it very very very rare he could ever get to league average for a catcher

since 2018 in Low A through AAA Rortvedt sported a 101-102 wRC+ with the exception of when he repeated A+ in '19 he sported a 132 wRC+ for 98 plate appearances. Maybe with a little patience he could hit slightly below average as a major leaguer.

As well as Rortvedt fields the catcher position, a slightly below average bat could give him a nice long career as a major leaguer.

Keep in mind that the average for catchers includes a very wide deviation. There are catchers like Garver who mash, and there are catchers like Michael Perez and Austin Hedges who don't.

[terrydactyls]

On 2/2/2022 at 8:20 PM, Samuel Erwin said:

I do not know how much Retvordt will help. We already have two young catchers who show great talent. Gordon and Celestino are both great young players and i have high hopes for them!!

 

Who are the two young catchers who show great talent?

[old nurse]

7 hours ago, Sconnie said:

since 2018 in Low A through AAA Rortvedt sported a 101-102 wRC+ with the exception of when he repeated A+ in '19 he sported a 132 wRC+ for 98 plate appearances. Maybe with a little patience he could hit slightly below average as a major leaguer.

As well as Rortvedt fields the catcher position, a slightly below average bat could give him a nice long career as a major leaguer.

Keep in mind that the average for catchers includes a very wide deviation. There are catchers like Garver who mash, and there are catchers like Michael Perez and Austin Hedges who don't.

In the article Cody stated that Rortvedt is a fine backup catcher but would not be a primary catcher because he can’t hit enough. Somebody took an interesting exception to that , I responded to that. Rortvedt will not hit well enough to be a primary catcher. Your numbers show that. He hit what an average minor league player would hit. He may well have a long career as a backup.  A league average minor league hitter is not a league average major league hitter. There is too much chaff at the bottom.. 

[old nurse]

4 hours ago, terrydactyls said:

Who are the two young catchers who show great talent?

Cardenas and Winkel would come to mind as the young catchers. My guess is the person was thinking of Garver and Jeffers. Garver may be viewed as young if you are old enough.  You may not understand that 31 is a distant memory for a centurion