Johan Santana or Joe Nathan: Who Is A Bigger Hall of Fame Snub?

[Trov]

On 1/29/2022 at 8:31 AM, old nurse said:

Neither are a snub, Santana was not nearly as good as Koufax. Koufax had post season success

So if a pitcher does not have success in post-season then they are not HOF worthy?  Fact is other than post-season numbers,  Koufax post season numbers were great, but Sanata's was not terrible as a starter.  He only had 1 bad game, rest were above replacement level.  It is not his fault the team did not advance, or failed to score for him at all. 

My point in my post is careers were in line of seasons, and overall numbers were on par, but no one questions Koufax should be in hall, but very few, as shown by 1 and done vote, think Santana should be in at all.  It makes no sense to me. 

I hate the post season argument, as some great players never get to play in post season.  Mike Trout is most likely a first ballot guy, but only has 1 post season series, with 1 hit in 12 at bats.  Should he be left out because his post season career to this point has been terrible? 

[dex8425]

On 1/28/2022 at 12:25 PM, RJA said:

Thanks for response on hall of fame election by market size.  I will try to find the study.  I think you are greatly underselling Nathan.  AS games:  Nathan 6, Wagner 7.  WPA career:  Nathan 30.6 (top 10 5 times), Wagner 29.1 (top 10 4 times).  Championship WPA:  Nathan  25.4 (top 10 5 times), Wagner 25.9 (top 10 3 times).  Rolaids Wins:  Nathan 1, Wagner 1.  WAR/162:  Nathan 2.2, Wagner 2.2, Career WAR: Nathan 26.7, Wagner 27.7.  Years facing designated hitters:  Nathan 10, Wagner 0.  I think you need to take another look at the analytics :). 

I do think Nathan has a legitimate HOF case, though I don't see him quite on the level as Rivera or Wagner. Joe Nathan and Papelbon should be in the HOF IMO. 

WAR is useless when evaluating relief pitchers. Actually FWAR is a lot better for pitchers in general. WPA is helpful, but again, Papelbon is closer to Nathan than Wagner. As a relief pitcher, Wagner didn't face pitchers in the lineup. 

Papelbon has a better ERA, FIP, ERA+, BB%, and K/BB than Nathan. Wagner is arguably the second-best reliever of all time. Wagner's ERA is #2 all-time behind Rivera. He is first in FIP, first in strikeout rate, first in ERA+ and first in WHIP, which are stats in the pitcher's control; WPA isn't.  

[old nurse]

On 1/31/2022 at 8:41 AM, Trov said:

So if a pitcher does not have success in post-season then they are not HOF worthy?  Fact is other than post-season numbers,  Koufax post season numbers were great, but Sanata's was not terrible as a starter.  He only had 1 bad game, rest were above replacement level.  It is not his fault the team did not advance, or failed to score for him at all. 

My point in my post is careers were in line of seasons, and overall numbers were on par, but no one questions Koufax should be in hall, but very few, as shown by 1 and done vote, think Santana should be in at all.  It makes no sense to me. 

I hate the post season argument, as some great players never get to play in post season.  Mike Trout is most likely a first ballot guy, but only has 1 post season series, with 1 hit in 12 at bats.  Should he be left out because his post season career to this point has been terrible? 

Career ERA and innings were not on par between Koufax and Santana.  You may hate the post season argument but there is a huge difference between what they did post season.. Koufax was brilliant, Santana was not