Don't Trade Austin Martin

[Whitey333]

Ever since the Twins hired Baldelli to be their manager, it has become more apparent to me that they want to follow the model of the Tampa Bay Rays.  That is rely on scouting and development and trading players at the right time.  Also means a very small payroll. I believe our payroll will be reduced and FO will have their fingers crossed that these "prospects" turn out.  So far we are left with Buxton, Bundy with his 6.06 era (Angels didn't seem to be too interested in keeping him) oh yes and a brand new scoreboard.  Merry Christmas Twins fans from your owner and Front Office.

[bean5302]

8 hours ago, Wax off said:

...This sounds like something the organization is leaking because they got caught flat footed in regards to free agency and are now desperately searching for pitching...

I think that's a pretty big leap. There's no reason to leak anything since teams can still discuss trades all they like so the Twins can just pick up a phone and call whomever they'd like. Also, with the lockout ongoing, season ticket sales aren't going to be busy no matter what so appeasing the fans at this point probably doesn't do much.

[bean5302]

2 hours ago, Whitey333 said:

Ever since the Twins hired Baldelli to be their manager, it has become more apparent to me that they want to follow the model of the Tampa Bay Rays.  That is rely on scouting and development and trading players at the right time.  Also means a very small payroll. I believe our payroll will be reduced and FO will have their fingers crossed that these "prospects" turn out.  So far we are left with Buxton, Bundy with his 6.06 era (Angels didn't seem to be too interested in keeping him) oh yes and a brand new scoreboard.  Merry Christmas Twins fans from your owner and Front Office.

I'd be willing to bet the new CBA is going to include a salary floor at least $100MM. It was proposed by the owners because the big teams are sick and tired of being unable to wean some teams off revenue sharing and because it will support the move of teams like Oakland and Tampa to better markets/stadiums.

[Otaknam]

Speed and ability to hit for average, steal bases, and play excellent defense is a big plus. Power can be over rated. Martin might be a Robin Yount clone offensively. T’ain’t bad! Let’s see what he can do. No trade!

[TwinsDr2021]

2 hours ago, Otaknam said:

Speed and ability to hit for average, steal bases, and play excellent defense is a big plus. Power can be over rated. Martin might be a Robin Yount clone offensively. T’ain’t bad! Let’s see what he can do. No trade!

Can we stop comparing the Twins prospects to Hall of Famers. Martin will be 23 in March, Yount was playing his 6th season at 23, and was two years away from an MVP year.

Would I trade Martin, sure, but it would have to be be for Major League pitcher with at least two years of control, or for a pitching prospect like Max Meyer.

[Finlander]

IMO Martin seems to have a more developed pure hit tool than Lewis. It's still early in their pro careers, understood. Also, the primary asset of Lewis, his plus-plus speed, may be impacted by his knee injury. So all of this bears watching in the spring once baseball resumes. Given this, of the two prospects I'd be more comfortable seeing Lewis moved than Martin.

[old nurse]

I cab see that last year Martin played in CF or SS. There are people claiming that he is neither a SS or CF. Are both the Toronto and Twins organizations that clueless because there is the oft repeated postings. 

When was the last time thisTwins FO traded a top prospect.?  Do people think that the FO is going to change how they have done business?

[Finlander]

I'd consider Graterol a top prospect traded by the Twins..

[Cody Pirkl]

On 12/31/2021 at 9:46 AM, jorgenswest said:

Would it makes sense for the Twins to trade Martin and Woods-Richardson for Montas? Would it seem like they don’t have a plan by trading for prospects and then turning around and trading for a pitcher? It would be like trading Berrios for Montas.

How does flipping one starter for another help? It helps because they traded the last two months of Berrios 2021 for the Montas 2023. They weren’t going anywhere in 2021. Why not trade him while his value is high and bank the prospect capital? Why not use that capital for much needed starting pitching?

The Twins need starting pitching. If they can trade Martin for a Berrios like return with control in 2023 they absolutely should do it.

Note: I chose Montas because I was looking for a pitcher that was a close match for Berrios in WAR last year (both 4.1) with 2023 control. There might be a better candidate. Let’s try not to derail a discussion about trading Martin with a debate about Berrios v Montas.

Here's my issue with essentially trading Berrios for Montas: that in a vacuum doesn't accomplish much for 2022. It adds one single reliable pitcher to a rotation that I'd argue has zero as of right now. Are they going to empty the entire farm system and get 1-2 more high level pitchers? I doubt it. So what's the point? The front office talks about sustained success all the time. I don't see how trading top prospects we just got in another trade just so we have one solid arm on likely another sub .500 roster fits that model. Let these guys develop and see what we have for 2023.

[FritzDahmus]

Using Pohlad logic --- he isn't good enough yet to be over-priced..............so keep him. Let's wait until he is really good, then trade him for more prospects. Hmm....prospects good, veterans bad.

[jorgenswest]

45 minutes ago, Cody Pirkl said:

Here's my issue with essentially trading Berrios for Montas: that in a vacuum doesn't accomplish much for 2022. It adds one single reliable pitcher to a rotation that I'd argue has zero as of right now. Are they going to empty the entire farm system and get 1-2 more high level pitchers? I doubt it. So what's the point? The front office talks about sustained success all the time. I don't see how trading top prospects we just got in another trade just so we have one solid arm on likely another sub .500 roster fits that model. Let these guys develop and see what we have for 2023.

You are pretty convincing.

My filter is 2023. Does this make trade make the team better in 2023? I think it does and Montas would be a needed piece of any 2023 playoff rotation. I suppose the Twins could wait until next season to make this kind of deal and try to get someone with 23-24 control. I just wonder if starting pitching will be available next off-season as they appear to be this year from the Reds and A’s.

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

You are pretty convincing.

My filter is 2023. Does this make trade make the team better in 2023? I think it does and Montas would be a needed piece of any 2023 playoff rotation. I suppose the Twins could wait until next season to make this kind of deal and try to get someone with 23-24 control. I just wonder if starting pitching will be available next off-season as they appear to be this year from the Reds and A’s.

There's always arms available if you're willing to pay. But to me this all comes down to the prospects developing. If they don't develop any arms in 22 then the situation is the same in 23 and Montas still isn't enough to help anything (I don't think failed development in 22 would lead the FO to suddenly start spending on FA arms). 

I think they need to take 22 and see what arms develop and are legit ML talents. Don't risk trading away the 1 or 2 guys who turn out and being stuck with 1 veteran guy on a 1 year deal. If they can't develop pitching they're screwed no matter what. I say keep the kids and see what you have in them and fill in around that for 23.

[ashbury]

3 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

My filter is 2023.

I have so much trouble embracing this.  All last season we were assured that a perfect storm of bad luck and injuries had occurred, to torpedo the season for a team expected to contend for the AL Central crown, if not outright favored.  Now we are asked to accept that not only was last season not a fluke, but a rebuild is called for and 2022 should be completely punted.  We are burning prime years of an offense that we were assured was capable of leading to a World Series - apparently those bats are not valued as much as we were told.

We suffered through nearly a decade of irrelevance, for the benefit of a window that turned out to be only 2 years?

I've rooted for the team through thick and thin, since moving to the area in 1978 and even after moving away in 1996.  But this kind of cynical ratio is the sort of thing that could kill my interest at last, if you are indeed channeling our FO's thinking.

"Pie in the sky, by and by."

[jorgenswest]

21 minutes ago, ashbury said:

I have so much trouble embracing this.  All last season we were assured that a perfect storm of bad luck and injuries had occurred, to torpedo the season for a team expected to contend for the AL Central crown, if not outright favored.  Now we are asked to accept that not only was last season not a fluke, but a rebuild is called for and 2022 should be completely punted.  We are burning prime years of an offense that we were assured was capable of leading to a World Series - apparently those bats are not valued as much as we were told.

We suffered through nearly a decade of irrelevance, for the benefit of a window that turned out to be only 2 years?

I've rooted for the team through thick and thin, since moving to the area in 1978 and even after moving away in 1996.  But this kind of cynical ratio is the sort of thing that could kill my interest at last, if you are indeed channeling our FO's thinking.

"Pie in the sky, by and by."

I don’t go by what they say or even read it. I can see the roster. 

My filter became 2023 in late August when Maeda was lost for 2022. At the trade deadline Maeda had finished a very strong July with 5 starts and an ERA OF 2.15. It was plausible to add a number 2 pitcher and build the rest of the rotation for 2022. As soon as they lost Maeda I would advocate the Twins devote resources to assets that they control through at least 2023.

It is my suggested filter not the Twins. I don’t know their plans and can only offer my thoughts. I am sure many disagree,

[Cody Pirkl]

21 hours ago, jorgenswest said:

You are pretty convincing.

My filter is 2023. Does this make trade make the team better in 2023? I think it does and Montas would be a needed piece of any 2023 playoff rotation. I suppose the Twins could wait until next season to make this kind of deal and try to get someone with 23-24 control. I just wonder if starting pitching will be available next off-season as they appear to be this year from the Reds and A’s.

Having someone like Montas or Castillo would make the 2023 team better if they're on it and if that was the plan it makes such a trade better. The problem is the front office showed with the Berrios trade that A. They're not going to extend a pitcher like that for any realistic amount of money it would take and B. If the team stinks at the deadline and they have a high end pitcher with one year left of control, they're trading them. 

That's where I worry about some disgusting cycle of trading a bunch of prospects for arms and then cashing them in again right away for more prospects if the team disappoints. They should just pick a lane.

[jorgenswest]

1 hour ago, Cody Pirkl said:

Having someone like Montas or Castillo would make the 2023 team better if they're on it and if that was the plan it makes such a trade better.

Yes. That is my plan for this off season. Make moves that will make the 2023 team better. In this case it makes the 2022 team better also.

[nicksaviking]

I have no interest in trading for starting pitchers with 1 or 2 years of control left. This team isn't a legit contender next year and I don't want the front office trying to bail themselves out by making a short sighted trade in order to put together a .500 record to save their jobs. They made their bed in free agency, time to sleep in it, they shouldn't be giving up future equity to save face. Any trade that enables this team to carry a payroll under 130M should be grounds for new leadership.

[jmlease1]

On 1/1/2022 at 5:37 PM, old nurse said:

I cab see that last year Martin played in CF or SS. There are people claiming that he is neither a SS or CF. Are both the Toronto and Twins organizations that clueless because there is the oft repeated postings. 

Seriously. I know there are some questions about whether or not Martin can handle SS full-time in MLB, much like with Royce Lewis (and that's going to be true of most SS prospects that can hit and aren't just glove wizards) but I haven't seen a word that he can't play CF.

[Steve71]

Martin for Max Meyer, straight up.  Who says no?

Marlins need hitting, Twins need pitching.