Twins Sign RHP Dylan Bundy

[Major League Ready]

3 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Which prospects do people think will start in MN day 1?

Because they 100% aren't contending with that idea, not with the ones that have pitched in MN before.

Leading one to wonder what they plan to do with some of the veteran hitters, who are not worth anything next year if they aren't contending.....

I mean, if the plan is to use Jax and Thorpe and ?.......then shouldn't part of the plan to be to trade veterans for more prospects? 

Who are you thinking, Mike?  Garver only has two years left but Polanco / Kepler / Buxton / Jeffers have multiple years left,  I don't think they can get anything for Donaldson.  Sano might bring a half way decent prospect considering the universal; DH is likely.  Arreaz has 4 years left but could be traded given out depth at 2B.

[Mike Sixel]

Just now, Major League Ready said:

Who are you thinking, Mike?  Garver only has two years left but Polanco / Kepler / Buxton / Jeffers have multiple years left,  I don't think they can get anything for Donaldson.  Sano might bring a half way decent prospect considering the universal; DH is likely.  Arreaz has 4 years left but could be traded given out depth at 2B.

I don't know.....I'd like to keep Garver, but he's very valuable I'd think (esp when the DH is universal). He'd bring back a great prospect, or two good ones. I'd 100% trade Arraez if he brought back a guy you believed in. I'd consider Polanco, IF and only IF you keep Arraez or believe in Martin or Lewis at 2B, but I'd have to be blown away.

If Sano brought back a good prospect or two, I'd consider it. But, I really think he's going to come out hot this year and be worth every penny...that said, next year looks lost, and they have some hitters coming up that can't field, and Larnach is a DH imo......so, maybe? I'd hate to deal him, I'm a believer, and I don't know if you can get what I'd want.

No way I deal Jeffers at this point. He's a legit starting catcher who isn't old. I don't know if you can get enough for Kepler to make it worth doing. 

BTW, there were almost no trades, so their lack of action there is not a surprise......and it may not be possible to make trades if the LOCKOUT lasts close to the season.

[MMMordabito]

5 hours ago, big dog said:

Ryan and Ober, then quit being sober

I'm set for 2022.  I almost don't want the Twins to bring in any more pitchers after reading this.  Sounds like a fun season!

[KirbyDome89]

45 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

I didn't say anything about 1 year contracts.  I simply pointed out that the 5 year deals have been horrible outside of the first year and a mixed bag even in the first year.  I am not even saying we should not do them ... just that in the Cueto / Zimmerman type cases it hurts the team badly for 3 or 4 years.  

BTW ... Ray and Gausman were 1 year deals and there have many 1 or 2 year deals (Cruz) that have been fantastic.  

Your post was a caution against committing long term. I pointed out the downside to frequent reshuffling. 

Cruz isn't a pitcher. I wouldn't put Bundy in the same category as either Ray or Gausman, as each of those two had much more success prior to signing "prove it," deals. With Bundy, the ceiling is him returning to league averag-ish form from 5 years ago. If he has a career year, great, but I'm not holding my breath hoping he turns into something he's never shown any indication he's capable of being.  

[Mike Sixel]

We've certainly seen that the Twins can't sign new 1 year deals every year and build a staff (see last year and likely this coming year).....so I'm not sure how 1 year deals over and over to fill multiple slots is a good/sustainable idea (maybe they weren't trying to win last year?).

[Major League Ready]

29 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

We've certainly seen that the Twins can't sign new 1 year deals every year and build a staff (see last year and likely this coming year).....so I'm not sure how 1 year deals over and over to fill multiple slots is a good/sustainable idea (maybe they weren't trying to win last year?).

History is very clear in that neither strategy is a viable way to build a staff for any team and it's down right incompetent for a team in the bottom 1/3 or revenue to try.  There are two potential paths.  Trade for SPs as prospects or before they become established or draft and develop them.  The one year guys are a way to fill holes.  The very top free agents SPs (Scherzer / Greinke) are great.  The problem is that there are so very few of them.  Plus can we afford to put 29% in one player?  (Scherzer / $150M budget)   Other than these very select few true elite SPs, the rest of the free agent market collectively is a very poor bet, especially outside the first year.  The production is surprising low when you actually go back and chart their production.

We can talk about the poor history of developing pitchers all we like.  By far the most likely path to success is through developing internal pitching so focusing on less productive strategies never makes sense.  I think we are about to see the FO act accordingly. The old regime no doubt failed to develop pitching and we are about to see if the new is any different.   

[Dman]

1 hour ago, KirbyDome89 said:

I posted something similar in a thread earlier in the year, but I don't think the prospect reinforcements are as strong as some believe, at least for this season. Duran and Canterino barely pitched last year and each battled elbow injuries. Surgery isn't guaranteed, but those types of injuries usually lead to intervention. Winder's shoulder issues to end the year could fall under the same category, or maybe it just was fatigue (still not great considering he only threw 72 innings.) They had to shut SWR down, not for injury, but because he was pitching so poorly. That leaves Balazovic. 

Add to this the fact that both Ryan and Ober threw just over 100 innings last year. Neither of them, even if healthy, is going to be able to pitch a full season, unless they're making 4 inning starts. Good luck constructing a bullpen capable of absorbing that on top of the occasional short starts from whoever else is added into the starting mix. 

If they're putting a bulk of their eggs in the prospect basket they're 100% throwing away the season. Hell, I'd argue that eschewing affordable arms in FA, and barring some big trade(s) for a front line arm this winter they're tossing away more than just this year. Maybe the prospect "luck," completely turns around, but it seems like an unnecessary amount of risk to take on. 

I am a prospect lover but after watching pitcher after pitcher go down last year it is harder to keep faith in those up and coming pitching prospects.  I tend to agree with you Duran and Canterino seem in danger of arm issues and I personally don't count on either one staying a starter.  They both threw limited innings last year so their ability to help the team this year seems unlikely.  Sands had his own stops and starts last year but his stats are as good as Winders and Balazovic wasn't exactly dominant last year.  Winder looked pretty good until he got hit with a baseball but still only 72 innings last year.  Strotman threw the most innings (101) but his WHIP is currently so high he won't make it as a starter.  

I know they all were coming off a year layoff and injuries seemed up league wide but really we only have 3 legit guys that might be ready this year as starters and even then unlikely to make it the entire season.  So yeah I agree with you that if they truly are depending entirely on the young arms we are sunk.

Still I hope we get and arm or two to work out and I hope Duran and Canterino can prove more durable in 2022.  The tough thing is the offense could be pretty good this coming year so if we have the pitching we probably could compete. Still with all the best FA pitchers off the board they will have to get lucky with the leftovers to help the pitching staff.  I think we are in for another tough year.

[RpR]

Last thing the twins need is another guessamatic rookie showing he belong in the Minors on a good day; time will tell if this boy find the Twins inspiring or a a dump like Happ did.

[dex8425]

4 hours ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Odorizzi and Maeda weren't developed by the Twins. Berrios for sure was a success, but who did he snatch that title from? Liriano maybe? That was 10 years ago. Santana was 20 years ago. We're not that far removed from the Twins teams in the mid 2010s that could barely field two ML caliber pitchers, and right now the outlook isn't exactly roses either. They've had some success with FA starters (very little with the current FO) but even those were very short lived. 

Odo and Maeda had their best seasons with the Twins. Nobody has their best seasons with the Angels or Orioles. The Twins current FO has certainly done better with starting pitchers than the Angels or Orioles. That was my point. This FO was hired to develop pitchers, and we haven't really had enough time to figure out if they're doing that well or not. Certainly their FA signings have not worked well. 

I'd bet that Bundy is better with the Twins than he was with Baltimore or LAA though. 

[Shs_2]

21 hours ago, se7799 said:

I have to ask, why would you rather have Bundy than Ray, Stromen, or Gausmen?  Honestly. Why?

Man , some real bright minds here in twins territory  I see these days...smh

I said at that price point I would rather have Bundy over Gausman and Stroman and even Rob Ray

Everyone's looking at 2021........If you look at 2017 thru 2021 u are afforded a broader landscape of who these guys actually are.

Gausman was essentially a kyle Gibson clone with 2 or 3 more ticks on the FB (Gibby for yrs relied heavily on sinker)

Untill he found success in S.F. in '21

( WHO DOESNT FIND SUCCESS in that park) I mean Alex F'n Cobb will look like A #3 or even a 2 this coming season.

 

ROBBIE Ray is good , he really is , but if you can get a Rodon for 1/2  Ray's money or Less?  U'd take Rodon every single time or im blind.. Ray is overrated 

Remember Pat Corbin? Ray 2 yrs from now will turn into a bullpen only arm if he's going to be continually affective.

The Ms will regret that signing by 2024 or 2025....

And Jose berrios >>> than Marcus lil Stroman they're similar but stro can never live up to what he was supposed to be.

 

Just remember if this were 2019 all over again Bundy , Gausman , Ray , and even Stro were all about 45 or 50 overall pitchers on a~ 20-80 scale

Meaning they were all in the same boat more or less.

A lot has happened since 2020, yes ,but ppl are taking waaay too much stock in the 2020 and '21 seasons

 

VALUE trumps stupid contracts that apparently idiots Here want to readily hand out.

I see very little value in the Gausman to Tor. DeaL

THE cubs and Mariners made out a bit better but it's not going to move the needle enough for those respective clubs . Now sign me up for Collin McHugh next or yusei kickuchi  if it's cheap enough ; Dream on Rodon ? Rodon is like the pitching version of Buxton, frail but dominate

 

[Shs_2]

On 12/1/2021 at 6:22 PM, KnoblauchWasFramed said:

Clearly you're looking to Troll everyone with this comment.  So well played sir, well played.  Saying you'd take Dylan Bundy over the reigning Cy Young Award winner is just brilliant.  

And you can go back to whatever Yankees Fan Boy sight You're really apart of .

Wow take my words out of context much?

[MN_ExPat]

On 12/1/2021 at 7:20 PM, KnoblauchWasFramed said:

God Bless Twins fans like you.  Always taking that big turd you're given and putting a nice high polish on it. 

Come on now.  If you want to be an Ebenezer... go ahead, that's your right, but don't lash out at other fans who choose not to share your vitriol.

[se7799]

14 hours ago, Shs_2 said:

Man , some real bright minds here in twins territory  I see these days...smh

I said at that price point I would rather have Bundy over Gausman and Stroman and even Rob Ray

Everyone's looking at 2021........If you look at 2017 thru 2021 u are afforded a broader landscape of who these guys actually are.

Gausman was essentially a kyle Gibson clone with 2 or 3 more ticks on the FB (Gibby for yrs relied heavily on sinker)

Untill he found success in S.F. in '21

( WHO DOESNT FIND SUCCESS in that park) I mean Alex F'n Cobb will look like A #3 or even a 2 this coming season.

 

ROBBIE Ray is good , he really is , but if you can get a Rodon for 1/2  Ray's money or Less?  U'd take Rodon every single time or im blind.. Ray is overrated 

Remember Pat Corbin? Ray 2 yrs from now will turn into a bullpen only arm if he's going to be continually affective.

The Ms will regret that signing by 2024 or 2025....

And Jose berrios >>> than Marcus lil Stroman they're similar but stro can never live up to what he was supposed to be.

 

Just remember if this were 2019 all over again Bundy , Gausman , Ray , and even Stro were all about 45 or 50 overall pitchers on a~ 20-80 scale

Meaning they were all in the same boat more or less.

A lot has happened since 2020, yes ,but ppl are taking waaay too much stock in the 2020 and '21 seasons

 

VALUE trumps stupid contracts that apparently idiots Here want to readily hand out.

I see very little value in the Gausman to Tor. DeaL

THE cubs and Mariners made out a bit better but it's not going to move the needle enough for those respective clubs . Now sign me up for Collin McHugh next or yusei kickuchi  if it's cheap enough ; Dream on Rodon ? Rodon is like the pitching version of Buxton, frail but dominate

 

So many bad comparisons and talking in circles here.  Thanks for nothing.

[KirbyDome89]

20 hours ago, dex8425 said:

Odo and Maeda had their best seasons with the Twins. Nobody has their best seasons with the Angels or Orioles. The Twins current FO has certainly done better with starting pitchers than the Angels or Orioles. That was my point. This FO was hired to develop pitchers, and we haven't really had enough time to figure out if they're doing that well or not. Certainly their FA signings have not worked well. 

I'd bet that Bundy is better with the Twins than he was with Baltimore or LAA though. 

Having a career year isn't development. I'm going to pass on splitting hairs over which bottom dwelling teams are worse. In the last 20 years + the Twins haven't been good at identifying, developing, or "polishing," pitchers. That's objectively true. Again, we can pick out maybe one pitcher per decade that other teams coveted long term. This FO has repeatedly stated their goal is to build a sustainable winner. We agree that to this point they've failed mightily in FA. Trades haven't yielded any long term stability or success. We're into year 6, the clock is running out on the prospect patience as well. 

 You can cherry pick his worst years at either stop and you very well might win that bet. That's an awfully low bar to clear though. More realistically, I think the odds of Bundy returning to his '16 form, i.e. an averg-ish pitcher, are less than 50%.