Pitchers that are available

[nova_twins]

The decreasing supply of options is concerning, but on the other hand, it's not like we'd be happy if they panicked and massively overpaid for mediocrity. Or at least, I wouldn't be. 

There are still some free agents left and potential trades out there, so there's just no way to judge at this point. It could be a reasonable strategy to trade for a #2 starter with a year or two left under contract, and then sign a couple one-year free agent deals, as a way to avoid blocking young arms. 

*Could* be in the sense that it would depend on the young arms actually appearing and succeeding, which seems to be a rather uncertain prospect.

[nicksaviking]

4 minutes ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Take it easy, I'm not "criminalizing," the FO.

Am I misremembering how the Darvish and Wheeler attempts played out publicly?

It sounds more like mischaracterizing than misremembering.  

[prouster]

I’m curious to see which arms get traded. If I was Derek Falvey, I’d call my peers in Philadelphia and see what they want for a package of Nola and Gregorius. Nola has one guaranteed year left plus a team option and would be an instant extension candidate. Gregorius was borderline unplayable last year, but is also an interesting bounce back candidate who would reduce Philadelphia’s prospect haul. 
 

Other arms to consider are Rogers in Miami and Gallen in Arizona. 
 

All of them would be costly in terms of prospects, but I think the twins need to be willing to part with Lewis, Kirilloff, Larnach, Balazovic, or Duran (not all of them, but one or two) to improve the major league rotation. 

[tony&rodney]

20 minutes ago, prouster said:

I’m curious to see which arms get traded. If I was Derek Falvey, I’d call my peers in Philadelphia and see what they want for a package of Nola and Gregorius. Nola has one guaranteed year left plus a team option and would be an instant extension candidate. Gregorius was borderline unplayable last year, but is also an interesting bounce back candidate who would reduce Philadelphia’s prospect haul. 
 

Other arms to consider are Rogers in Miami and Gallen in Arizona. 
 

All of them would be costly in terms of prospects, but I think the twins need to be willing to part with Lewis, Kirilloff, Larnach, Balazovic, or Duran (not all of them, but one or two) to improve the major league rotation. 

I like that you are suggesting trades because trades are often a decent way to add talent, but Philly has rabid fans so Nola stays and Rogers is untouchable. Gallen. . ..  I don't know but Arizona needs might not match up. 

[KirbyDome89]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

It sounds more like mischaracterizing than misremembering.  

So this regime hasn't been more public in their pursuit of high end arms only to yield the same results as the last? 

What are you trying to argue here....

[DocBauer]

2 hours ago, Seth Stohs said:

Robbie Ray to the Mariners: 5 years, $115 million. 

This really bothers me. 

I am not down on the FO or bashing them...i am on record as being largely supportive for many reasons...but this is a deal the Twins could have not only EASILY matched, but they could have been creative and front loaded the deal at just a little more at $25M per vs $23 and offered an out after 2 or 3yrs when our prospects should all be reaching MLB and maybe even have a season or two under their belt. And by then, obviously, Donaldson and Maeda will be probably done and gone. And if Ray doesn't opt out, he's been front loaded so the last couple of years are a smaller obligation. And if he isn't hurt or just "loses it", he might even have some trade value at a lower AAV to a team needing a veteran SP. 

Am I crazy on this?

In my "blueprint" I chose Stroman because he's been more tied to the Twins In the past and might come in a little cheaper than Ray or Gausman. At this point, while disappointed they didn't just be inventive and do as I've stated, Stoman should come in a couple $M less for around $20-22M depending on final terms.

He fits. Something similar should be done.

I also had John Gray for $14M for 3-4yrs. Guess what he signed for? 

Any way you slice it, the payroll CAN absorb a lead SP in the $20-22M range. It can also easily afford to re-sign Pineda for around $8-9M, or someone similar if you like someone better. It could be a 1yr or a 1+1 which is fine. You STILL have/had the ability to sign someone like Gray or Rodriguez for $14M. But those guys are gone.

Stoman and Pineda are still in play. And there are still a few solid looking FA options available that cost a 2 or 3 yr deal to potentially fit in at the front of the rotation without breaking the bank like Kikuchi. And signings like this are not only affordable, but it keeps your milb system intact for development, promotion, and potential trade opportunities. 

OR, they could still sign Stomanm, re-sign Pineda, and look for a trade instead of an additional FA signing to add to the staff without blowing up the ML roster or the system.  Can they do that? For the upteenth time, can they pull a rabbit out of the hat and find a quality SP who fits in the top 2 without giving up much?

There is little time to make a major move for the rotation at this point but I'm sure hoping they do. In an ideal world, Stoman and Pineda would be signed in the next couple of days. THEN, the FO would grab someone else, or make a smart trade, after the CBA is done, and then pick up a solid RH RP option and maybe even a flier and call it good. Bullpen options are still out there and probably will be a month or so from now. 

My issue remains the same; despite the wonderful signing of Buxton, the $ is there to add a frontline SP to lead this team and still add a couple solid options without blowing up payroll or sactificing the roster or the system for the future. 

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, KirbyDome89 said:

So this regime hasn't been more public in their pursuit of high end arms only to yield the same results as the last? 

What are you trying to argue here....

I’m not arguing, I’m telling you that your implication that the front office is feigning interest in the pitchers only to dupe the fans, is disingenuous.

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

I’m not arguing, I’m telling you that your implication that the front office is feigning interest in the pitchers only to dupe the fans, is disingenuous.

They can offer unrealistic packages and leak them......

[KirbyDome89]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

I’m not arguing, I’m telling you that your implication that the front office is feigning interest in the pitchers only to dupe the fans, is disingenuous.

They're interested to a point, and that point is usually an amount below market value or even what we as fans might view as a relatively "affordable." Offer details bear that out. Aside from public acknowledgement that they're interested in higher profile arms, the results have been similar to what we had become accustomed to.

If you want to read something more nefarious into it I don't care. That isn't the point I made, or have continued to make.  

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, Mike Sixel said:

They can offer unrealistic packages and leak them......

To what end? That clearly isn’t a tactic that elicits anything other than negative reactions from the fans. Surely they don’t want to piss everyone off with false expectations intended to anger their audience.

[Mike Sixel]

21 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

To what end? That clearly isn’t a tactic that elicits anything other than negative reactions from the fans. Surely they don’t want to piss everyone off with false expectations intended to anger their audience.

So you think they think these offers that aren't ever close are realistic? That's much worse for the team. 

[nicksaviking]

59 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

So you think they think these offers that aren't ever close are realistic? That's much worse for the team. 

We don’t know the offers. I’m not sure what hasn’t been close. Assumedly they are less than the winning bid but do you think every other team that makes a bid and loses is making unrealistic offers or just the Twins? That’s getting way too conspiratorial for me.

When they make an initial offer, I don’t imagine they KNOW what the other clubs offered. If the player comes back and says another team offered 15M more, or another year and the Twins privately tell the agent that they aren’t going any higher, that seems like a valid response.

I mean I WANT them to go higher, but it seems like a common practice, not something nefarious.

[Mike Sixel]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

We don’t know the offers. I’m not sure what hasn’t been close. Assumedly they are less than the winning bid but do you think every other team that makes a bid and loses is making unrealistic offers or just the Twins? That’s getting way too conspiratorial for me.

When they make an initial offer, I don’t imagine they KNOW what the other clubs offered. If the player comes back and says another team offered 15M more, or another year and the Twins privately tell the agent that they aren’t going any higher, that seems like a valid response.

I mean I WANT them to go higher, but it seems like a common practice, not something nefarious.

Funny how their offers to pitchers are always lower. That's no coincidence. I guess we'll just disagree. 

[AceWrigley]

And we wondered if there would be big signings before the CBA expires.

[miller761]

Given a choice which he had - pretty sure Ray wasn't coming to Minnesota unless it was an over pay.

[nicksaviking]

6 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Funny how their offers to pitchers are always lower. That's no coincidence. I guess we'll just disagree. 

We can certainly agree that their offers aren't high enough and that they need to be more aggressive. We just can't agree that the Twins are purposefully leaking this information that they know will soon blow up in their faces.

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, nicksaviking said:

We can certainly agree that their offers aren't high enough and that they need to be more aggressive. We just can't agree that the Twins are purposefully leaking this information that they know will soon blow up in their faces.

This makes sense. The Twins are in the business of running a baseball team. It doesn't seem remotely likely to me, at least, that they bargain in bad faith. They have their own numbers and work from there. Sometimes we don't agree with whatever those numbers are because fans want to see a better team or think a certain player is needed.

[prouster]

50 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

This makes sense. The Twins are in the business of running a baseball team. It doesn't seem remotely likely to me, at least, that they bargain in bad faith. They have their own numbers and work from there. Sometimes we don't agree with whatever those numbers are because fans want to see a better team or think a certain player is needed.

Right. It would be stupid to make an offer in bad faith. What if the guy accepts?

[Mike Sixel]

53 minutes ago, tony&rodney said:

This makes sense. The Twins are in the business of running a baseball team. It doesn't seem remotely likely to me, at least, that they bargain in bad faith. They have their own numbers and work from there. Sometimes we don't agree with whatever those numbers are because fans want to see a better team or think a certain player is needed.

I don't think they are making offers in bad faith. But it's clear they have no idea what a free agent pitcher actually is worth, assuming these leaked offers in past years were legit. 

[Rosterman]

No one has latched onto Pineda, which says a lot about his agent. Or, maybe, no one cares?

 

Kershaw and Grienke! Hey, let's get some veteran presence for a couple of seasons while the youngsters shuffle thru the roster and build up their innings!

[prouster]

13 minutes ago, Mike Sixel said:

I don't think they are making offers in bad faith. But it's clear they have no idea what a free agent pitcher actually is worth, assuming these leaked offers in past years were legit. 

My memory of Darvish at least is that they were in it until the end, when the Cubs finally offered an extra year. 

[Mike Sixel]

10 minutes ago, Rosterman said:

No one has latched onto Pineda, which says a lot about his agent. Or, maybe, no one cares?

 

Kershaw and Grienke! Hey, let's get some veteran presence for a couple of seasons while the youngsters shuffle thru the roster and build up their innings!

There are plenty of Pineda quality guys out there still. I don't think it says anything other than teams aim high first.

[GoMNTwins]

On 11/29/2021 at 12:24 PM, Vanimal46 said:

Plenty of good names left. I doubt we end up signing the first 4 names on the list, but one or more of Wood, Cobb, Duffy, or Pineda will work. Then explore the trade market. 

Wood and Cobb are both off the board. 

[Rosterman]

The Twins should look into getting Trevor Megill from the Cubs. Doubt he will be kept on the 40-man. Has a power arm!

[KirbyDome89]

4 hours ago, prouster said:

My memory of Darvish at least is that they were in it until the end, when the Cubs finally offered an extra year. 

Along with that extra year came another $20M+

[prouster]

1 hour ago, KirbyDome89 said:

Along with that extra year came another $20M+

Well yes. 

[Joey P]

2 hours ago, Rosterman said:

The Twins should look into getting Trevor Megill from the Cubs. Doubt he will be kept on the 40-man. Has a power arm!

Great Prediction!!!

[Richie the Rally Goat]

On 11/29/2021 at 4:25 PM, TwinsDr2021 said:

why sign Pineda for 3 years, his last two contracts have been for 2 years? On top of that he will be 33 in a month or so, and never has had a season with a WAR higher than 2.7. Also I can't imagine Stroman would take 3 years, when Ray(5), Gausman(5), Rodriguez (5), Gray (4), Matz (4), 37 year old Scherzer got 3, and soon to be 39 year old Verlander got 2.

I would love to get Stroman for 3, but is is realistic? and I would give Pineda 2, not three, because the prospects should be than him in by the time the contract is done.

Ya, I would sign Pineda to a one year 8mil deal, no longer. If someone else outbids, so be it.

I can’t imagine Stroman signs for less than 4 years, probably 5. I’d sign him for 5 years, probably 90-100 mil, maybe more

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Slim pickings… Rodon interest?

[Vanimal46]

Richard Rodriguez is an interesting non-tender. I’d make him an offer.