FO's tentativeness is killing the team

[specialiststeve]

It's EARLY.. way too much panic around here. There are a ton of options. This front office has made some pretty good trades and if it weren't for Colome blowing seemingly every save the first month and Buxton getting banged up (surprise.. surprise) last years team likely is in the thick of the race instead of where we ended. Keep the faith and Happy Thanksgiving all. 

[Swing Batter-Batter]

On 11/23/2021 at 12:00 PM, nicksaviking said:

My prediction: The front office and ownership are going to pull this club in two different directions and set the club back a half decade. Falvey will start the rebuild by trading away Rodgers, Polanco and Kepler and sit out meaningful free agency, but while they wait for top dollar for Buxton, ownership will be taking so much heat that they'll step in and force the front office to extend him in February, leaving the Twins with one good player standing in the burning rubble that was once a decent roster.

As sad as that sounds, it actually makes sense.

 

[sjunisu]

 

Quote

 

 

I find it remarkable to see all the comments about not concerned about the inaction this offseason.  Has this FO shown a track-record to be the sevants of free agency and routinely get the diamonds from a pile of coal?  Unless my memory is failing me, this is not how I recall previous off-seasons.

So now only real path to improvement will be trades - losing our young talent base to get someting this FO thinks they can home grow but have been unable to produce to this point (pitching).  Why not keep the talent and just buy it on the open market - I guess that would make too much sense.

At this point I am also in the camp of apathy which for the organization is a terrible camp for fans to be located.

[Whitey333]

The fact that Twins don't appear to have a plan is disturbing.  The fact that they wait until all the decent FA are signed elsewhere is frustrating, very frustrating for Twins fan.  Unfortunately this is what they usually do.  Look at last year in the pitching department.  That worked out well didn't it?  Also if the current regime needs to do a total rebuild, I hope it includes the FO.  To be there about 5 years and have to do a rebuild doesn't speak too well of the FO

[Mike Sixel]

7 hours ago, sjunisu said:

 

I find it remarkable to see all the comments about not concerned about the inaction this offseason.  Has this FO shown a track-record to be the sevants of free agency and routinely get the diamonds from a pile of coal?  Unless my memory is failing me, this is not how I recall previous off-seasons.

So now only real path to improvement will be trades - losing our young talent base to get someting this FO thinks they can home grow but have been unable to produce to this point (pitching).  Why not keep the talent and just buy it on the open market - I guess that would make too much sense.

At this point I am also in the camp of apathy which for the organization is a terrible camp for fans to be located.

Besides winning two division titles? 

[RpR]

8 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Besides winning two division titles? 

1969-1970 the Twins won two division titles , went nowhere and then became mid-pack also rans.

[sjunisu]

14 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

Besides winning two division titles? 

What does that have to do with building next years team?  Your FO also drove us from first to dead last in the weakest division in baseball.  You might be fine with the sell assets to get an asset, but I would rather have that as a last resort and instead just buy the assets and give nothing up and use our young assets for ourselves.  One minute you are defending the FO (Like here) and other times hammering on them.

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, sjunisu said:

What does that have to do with building next years team?  Your FO also drove us from first to dead last in the weakest division in baseball.  You might be fine with the sell assets to get an asset, but I would rather have that as a last resort and instead just buy the assets and give nothing up and use our young assets for ourselves.  One minute you are defending the FO (Like here) and other times hammering on them.

Over-villainizing someone is the quickest way to invalidate an argument. Acknowledging the positives while discussing the negatives is a far more worthy debate tactic. This isn't a movie, these people aren't ALL bad nor are they ALL good.

[Mike Sixel]

3 hours ago, sjunisu said:

What does that have to do with building next years team?  Your FO also drove us from first to dead last in the weakest division in baseball.  You might be fine with the sell assets to get an asset, but I would rather have that as a last resort and instead just buy the assets and give nothing up and use our young assets for ourselves.  One minute you are defending the FO (Like here) and other times hammering on them.

The quote said they've proven nothing.....I pointed out that not everyone agrees, since they've won two titles.

No place did I say I was fine. 

You can acknowledge reality, and not like it. The world isn't as simple as right and wrong, as switches. 

[Prince William]

7 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Over-villainizing someone is the quickest way to invalidate an argument. Acknowledging the positives while discussing the negatives is a far more worthy debate tactic. This isn't a movie, these people aren't ALL bad nor are they ALL good.

The longer I am around people I get the impression that all or none is the common way to look at things. Nuance is long gone. The success of the FO with Odo and Pineda is long forgotten when there is a Happ and Shoemaker. That this FO found a diamond in the rough with Ober, possibly nabbed a very good pitcher for Cruz is meaningless because EVERYBODY else is signing players. 

[Prince William]

5 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

The quote said they've proven nothing.....I pointed out that not everyone agrees, since they've won two titles.

No place did I say I was fine. 

You can acknowledge reality, and not like it. The world isn't as simple as right and wrong, as switches. 

It is entirely possible to be critical of something that someone does and praise something else that they have done.

[Mike Sixel]

30 minutes ago, Prince William said:

It is entirely possible to be critical of something that someone does and praise something else that they have done.

That was my point. They aren't villains, or idiots. They haven't proven nothing. They are humans that are sometimes right, and sometimes wrong. 

[GoMNTwins]

I know this is the part where we all point to previous years and how this FO waits out the market and all that,  but this team looks lost right now. The way this season played out they should have been formulating a plan or at least a strategy in August, meanwhile the Tigers and White Sox are executing a clear plan. I'll wait until the dust settles like some of you are advocating, but I'm not holding my breath. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

22 minutes ago, GoMNTwins said:

I know this is the part where we all point to previous years and how this FO waits out the market and all that,  but this team looks lost right now. The way this season played out they should have been formulating a plan or at least a strategy in August, meanwhile the Tigers and White Sox are executing a clear plan. I'll wait until the dust settles like some of you are advocating, but I'm not holding my breath. 

While I advocate waiting things out to see if a plan forms - remember, a trade may be their key strategy this offseason and basically none of those have happened - but I'm with you that things look rather bleak right now. If I was running this franchise, and everyone should be happy that I'm not, I would have been out in front of this market and grabbed one of the mid-rotation arms before the looming lockout happens in December. No matter whether they buy more later or not, this team needs a lot of pitching and if they like a guy, they should have already made the offer to get him and then be moving on to the next phase of their offseason plan. It's not as if they need one piece this offseason, they need 3-4 at minimum.

And while sitting back and waiting to see what falls to them at a discount is a good plan for filler pieces, it's not a good plan for pitching if you need a lot of it. If this front office likes a pitcher, like they did Wheeler, they should be offering more than everyone else to nab said pitcher. At the end of the day, getting the guy you want is worth the $2-5m it will cost per season over the life of the contract.

[TheLeviathan]

Honestly curious....are we linked to ANYONE right now?

[Craig Arko]

13 minutes ago, TheLeviathan said:

Honestly curious....are we linked to ANYONE right now?

I’m playing a lot of ball toss with my dog.

[ashbury]

2 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

Honestly curious....are we linked to ANYONE right now?

A small to medium market club can't afford to be linked to anyone.  That requires a larger PR team.  Wouldn't be prudent to waste money on that.

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, TheLeviathan said:

Honestly curious....are we linked to ANYONE right now?

Heard we’re looking into a six year extension  with Dick Brewer.

[Major League Ready]

On 11/26/2021 at 1:04 AM, RpR said:

1969-1970 the Twins won two division titles , went nowhere and then became mid-pack also rans.

And what happened 50 years ago is important how?

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

Honestly curious....are we linked to ANYONE right now?

That’s part of what’s so discouraging. I haven’t heard a substantial rumor about the Twins being in on anyone. I wonder if they just planned to sit out until the lockout, which I find pretty infuriating. 

[Danchat]

3 hours ago, TheLeviathan said:

Honestly curious....are we linked to ANYONE right now?

Yeah... all I've seen is confirmation that they are not linked to most guys out there. Reportedly they plan on spending money mostly on pitching, but... you'd think we would have heard something by now. 

- Thinking over it, the only thing I've read is that they've talked to Pineda about a return. That's about it.

[tony&rodney]

1 hour ago, Major League Ready said:

 

1969-1970 the Twins won two division titles

These two teams are arguably the two best teams in Washington/Minnesota franchise history. 

Of course, that team and bringing them up has nothing to do with the post, but ......

[RpR]

6 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

And what happened 50 years ago is important how?

Same as what happened with any past FO is important now, you figure it out.

 

[Major League Ready]

14 hours ago, tony&rodney said:

These two teams are arguably the two best teams in Washington/Minnesota franchise history. 

Of course, that team and bringing them up has nothing to do with the post, but ......

Of course, those teams were important historically.  I should have asked the relevance to free agency or roster construction today.  The game is vastly different, the financial elements are vastly different and how teams are managed / constructed is vastly different.  Perhaps I should have said that managing as they did 50 years ago would leave a team in the wake of those operating in a modern way.  That's not to say I care for some of the modern practices but winning today requires a team adopt those practices.

One of the practices that has become most prolific is the emphasis on developing young / controllable / inexpensive players.  There is an assumption in this thread that the Twins are tentative.  It could be that they are planning developing pitching this year and have no intention of filling the roster with mid-level free agents.

[stringer bell]

As each day passes without a serious mention of the Twins being in on anyone, I get more frustrated and angry. Ryan and Ober and three "whodats" for the rotation is the recipe for last place next year. Gausman will likely agree to terms in the next three days, knocking off yet another top line starter. Also, there has been no news that the Twins are in on any shortstop. 

With a lockout looming and confusing times for transactions after the lockout a near certainty, I think the situation looks pretty bleak for Twins fans that want to see them in the playoffs before the next presidential election.

[RpR]

9 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

Of course, those teams were important historically.  I should have asked the relevance to free agency or roster construction today.  The game is vastly different, the financial elements are vastly different and how teams are managed / constructed is vastly different.  Perhaps I should have said that managing as they did 50 years ago would leave a team in the wake of those operating in a modern way.  That's not to say I care for some of the modern practices but winning today requires a team adopt those practices.

One of the practices that has become most prolific is the emphasis on developing young / controllable / inexpensive players.  There is an assumption in this thread that the Twins are tentative.  It could be that they are planning developing pitching this year and have no intention of filling the roster with mid-level free agents.

 Cal Griffith brought in, and removed,  a lot of  veterans as he saw necessary, THAT,  is one reason the team did so well before the seventies.

2019, the Twins did the same thing with excellent results.

[Major League Ready]

14 hours ago, RpR said:

 Cal Griffith brought in, and removed,  a lot of  veterans as he saw necessary, THAT,  is one reason the team did so well before the seventies.

2019, the Twins did the same thing with excellent results.

 

I agree in concept.  Small and mid market teams have routinely gone through stages where they move veterans and develop young players that will be part of their future.  However, this is not at all what happened with the 2019 Twins.  They brought in Cruz, Schoop, Gonzalez and Perez and they didn't trade away any of their core.

The Twins are in a rather unique position this year.  They have a pretty good core of position players. They don't have any veteran pitching.   Maeda will be back next year but will he be effective?  They have a number of pitching prospects that could/should debut this year.  Will they invest a year in developing homegrown pitching or do they try to fill 3 slots through free agency/trades and and keep them on the sideline?

[IndianaTwin]

On 11/26/2021 at 5:55 PM, Prince William said:

The longer I am around people I get the impression that all or none is the common way to look at things. Nuance is long gone. The success of the FO with Odo and Pineda is long forgotten when there is a Happ and Shoemaker. That this FO found a diamond in the rough with Ober, possibly nabbed a very good pitcher for Cruz is meaningless because EVERYBODY else is signing players. 

You’ve hit the nail on the head, PW. 

On Wednesday, I plan to turn my calendar to December (I’m old-fashioned and have one of those on my wall.). I know that this year Dec. 1 has extra significance, but it’s basically a month since the season is over and a long time until spring training. In addition to there still being activity on the free agent market, teams haven’t non-tendered yet, and trades haven’t been happening yet. 

[Greglw3]

On 11/24/2021 at 1:43 PM, Danchat said:

I don’t think any of the Cs you named will be starting in LF - well, Cave might get a few, but we’ll probably see Arraez, Larnach, Kirilloff and Rooker out there more. Sure, those FAs would be a nice addition but I don’t think they can afford to skimp on the more important positions like the rotation and SS.

I'd be happy with an Eddie Rosario reunion with, Iglesias at SS and Robbie Ray, Duffy, Pineda the big 3.