Bye bye Buxton?

[nicksaviking]

2 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

No.  But would you prefer their results or the Pirates.  KC had a couple good years and has been terrible for 20.  It's very unrealistic to believe a bottom revenue team will be consistently good.  Their recent success has been great and they are positioned to stay that way for several years.  Oakland actually has the best track record of small market teams.  

Let's stop with the small market teams then since you've already stated the Twins are mid market. How about we just follow the lead of St. Louis, a team that has had ONE losing season this century. They have no problem handing out big contracts and once in a while wading into the top 10 in league spending when the time calls for it despite being a smaller market than Minnesota. 

[howeda7]

19 hours ago, darin617 said:

This is a joke right? He has all the talent in the world but can't figure out how to stay healthy.  It's pretty bad when you want a guy to slow things down, what's even worse is when he can't figure it out on his own.

 

You can't break the bank for a guy that might play 100 games.

5/$110 million isn't breaking the bank. They have basically nothing committed to anyone past 2023.

[howeda7]

21 hours ago, lecroy24fan said:

This is not the teams fault they have a contract with Bally that they cannot get out of. Every team that has a deal with Bally is in the same situation. Now I will say you can blame the Brewers since they just signed a new deal with them.

It's not, but they still have to deal with the fallout. One way to weather it is not trade your two best players and go into full rebuild mode for no good reason.

[Major League Ready]

2 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Let's stop with the small market teams then since you've already stated the Twins are mid market. How about we just follow the lead of St. Louis, a team that has had ONE losing season this century. They have no problem handing out big contracts and once in a while wading into the top 10 in league spending when the time calls for it despite being a smaller market than Minnesota. 

I think STL is a great franchise.  However, the size of the market is not relevant.  Miami is a huge market and their revenue is among the lowest in the league.  STL generates enough incremental revenue to sign three significant free agents and have the Twins budget left over.  For example, they had 83M more in revenue in 2019.  So, the difference is roughly the same difference as the Twins vs the Rays.  I would expect the Twins to do things the Rays don't in terms of spending just as I expect the Cardinals to sign some deals the Twins don't do.  Is that reasonable or does the $80M delta only apply Twins vs Rays and not Twins vs Cardinals?  

[GoBlue48]

On 11/16/2021 at 11:34 AM, Linus said:

Wow. That doesn’t sound good. If they trade Buxton then they might as well blow the whole thing up. This really scares me because I don’t trust their player evaluation.   If the trade returns for Berrios and Buxton end up not being much they essentially gutted the franchise. 

 

[GoBlue48]

Just now, GoBlue48 said:

 

It's time to spend $$ and rebuild this team, starting with 2 starters and 1 dominate closer. The revolving door from St Paul AAA, was not successful full term.

Defensive help at SS with a bat,is imperative. Solicit some T Bay internal folks and scouts, they must be doing something right.

A college only pitching coach, really, no.minor league experience, what's that all about, guess JA Haap comments were valid.

Act small.market, you will always be small market,except for Tampa.

Front office. Spend some dollars make this team competitive. Eyes on Detriot this year. Ford family money will bring this team in contention very soon.

2022

Chicago,Cleveland,Detroit,  Minnesota & Kansas City

 

 

[GoBlue48]

21 hours ago, Doctor Gast said:

I'd rather have Buxton in 100 games, than Cave in for 162. That's what they what they think is a suitable sub. I don't trust their evaluation at all, they have proven to me they have no idea how to. Letting very good potential go while keeping dead weight. With incentives he's not going to break the bank unless he earns it. We aren't going to get anything in trade. He impacts the game why do we want just warm bodies who fills the 40 man roster and lose more undeveloped potential. I'm dead serious. You must miss the Twinkie Era, I don't! This FO is the joke, a bad one at that.

This FO is another on the cheap hire, same w/Manager, same w/ Pitching coach.

Bally Sports really what we're they thinking,not about fans for sure. Trade bait is Buxton, get some good players while he is still under team control. Can you say injury prone? Even in minor leagues, hello..

 

[Twodogs]

The Twins have always been my team that I have cheered for since I was old enough to walk.  But now because of where I live, I'm an Angels season ticket holder, 4 seats and I really don't have any huge allegiance to the Angels, but I like baseball and my son is a bigger baseball fan than I am, so we get to see games.  Now if I lived in Minneapolis I'm pretty sure I'd get season tickets, but if I lived more than 30 - 40 miles away I'm pretty sure I wouldn't, I'd probably just get tickets game by game.

[Major League Ready]

21 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Also, if the Twins naturally have a 50-60M per year payroll advantage on Tampa, that means the Twins should be able to afford two or three uncomfortable contracts and STILL operate the same way as they do.

 

15 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Let's stop with the small market teams then since you've already stated the Twins are mid market. How about we just follow the lead of St. Louis, a team that has had ONE losing season this century. They have no problem handing out big contracts and once in a while wading into the top 10 in league spending when the time calls for it despite being a smaller market than Minnesota. 

You have very clearly illustrated how reason goes out the window when spending is discussed on this site.  I am not singling you out here.  This is common on this site.   You just provided a very clear example.   You recognize the Twins spending advantage means they should do things the Rays do not which I have said on a number of occasions.  So, we agree on this premise.  Then, in the same thread suggest the Twins should be able to do what STL does when STL's revenue advantage over the Twins is the same as the Twins over Tampa.   The difference in opinion here is objectivity.

Of course, we don't acknowledge these things here and I am guessing you won't either.  We prefer to ignore them so that we can insist the problem is management or ownership.  

[nicksaviking]

1 hour ago, Major League Ready said:

 

You have very clearly illustrated how reason goes out the window when spending is discussed on this site.  I am not singling you out here.  This is common on this site.   You just provided a very clear example.   You recognize the Twins spending advantage means they should do things the Rays do not which I have said on a number of occasions.  So, we agree on this premise.  Then, in the same thread suggest the Twins should be able to do what STL does when STL's revenue advantage over the Twins is the same as the Twins over Tampa.   The difference in opinion here is objectivity.

Of course, we don't acknowledge these things here and I am guessing you won't either.  We prefer to ignore them so that we can insist the problem is management or ownership.  

 

I'm not sure why you'd think I wouldn't acknowledge something you quoted me saying. Anyway, people condemn and validate spending based on small-market, big-market. I understand going by revenue but then here's this:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193645/revenue-of-major-league-baseball-teams-in-2010/

The Twins had higher revenue than St. Louis last year. If that was an anomaly, seems like this past year would have been one where the Twins should have pushed the payroll while St. Louis would have decreased it. I suppose that's something to ignore though.

[Major League Ready]

34 minutes ago, nicksaviking said:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/193645/revenue-of-major-league-baseball-teams-in-2010/

The Twins had higher revenue than St. Louis last year. I suppose that's something to ignore though.

Actually, yes, we should ignore a covid year.  We don’t have 2021 data yet.  In 2019, the Twins had a great season so their revenue was up to $300M, the cardinals had revenue of $383M.  The $83M incremental revenue is 26% more than the twins. In 2018 the Twins had $269M, the cardinals had $356M or $87M / 32% more.

You are not nearly this ill-informed.  You know STL is a higher revenue team.  We can go back the last 20 years if you like but you know this to be true yet you stick to this obviously flawed position. Doubling down using a covid year is just another very clear demonstration of how fans sometimes only consider the information that supports their position.  You know that the Covid year is a very poor representation of anything statistical but you use it anyway.    

I give you another chance.  Do you really want to maintain the position that STL does not have a significant revenue advantage over the Twins?
 

[nicksaviking]

48 minutes ago, Major League Ready said:

Actually, yes, we should ignore a covid year.  We don’t have 2021 data yet.  In 2019, the Twins had a great season so their revenue was up to $300M, the cardinals had revenue of $383M.  The $83M incremental revenue is 26% more than the twins. In 2018 the Twins had $269M, the cardinals had $356M or $87M / 32% more.

You are not nearly this ill-informed.  You know STL is a higher revenue team.  We can go back the last 20 years if you like but you know this to be true yet you stick to this obviously flawed position. Doubling down using a covid year is just another very clear demonstration of how fans sometimes only consider the information that supports their position.  You know that the Covid year is a very poor representation of anything statistical but you use it anyway.    

I give you another chance.  Do you really want to maintain the position that STL does not have a significant revenue advantage over the Twins?
 

Provide sources please. Links. If the owners aren't going to show their numbers then they don't get the benefit of a benevolent fanbase.

This seems like a bit of an overreaction. A simple "I believe St. Louis has greater revenue" would have probably been a less aggressive response to a rather benign post.

[Murph]

Make no mistake about it - The Pohlads are every bit as cheap as Calvin Griffith was.  

Falvine / Pohlad have made more poor decisions than I care to pontificate on, here, but suffice it to say if Buxton is gone, so am I.  

[Major League Ready]

4 hours ago, nicksaviking said:

Provide sources please. Links. If the owners aren't going to show their numbers then they don't get the benefit of a benevolent fanbase.

This seems like a bit of an overreaction. A simple "I believe St. Louis has greater revenue" would have probably been a less aggressive response to a rather benign post.

Team revenue is relatively easy to construct.  Most of their revenue is taxable and therefore traceable.  Sponsorship is generally public record and tv revenue is widely distributed.  

Here is STLs revenue the last 20 years. 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/196684/revenue-of-the-st-louis-cardinals-since-2006/

Here is the Twins revenue the last 20 years.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/196669/revenue-of-the-minnesota-twins-since-2006/

2109 $83M incremental revenue or 26% more than the twins.
2018 $87M or 32% more.
2017 $58M or 21% more.
2016 $61M or 24% more
2015 $60M 0r 25% more.

We could go on but what is the point.  This is not news.  You elect to believe what you want to believe and ignore even the most definitive information if it does not suite you.

I bet you still won’t and don’t acknowledge that you used one set of logic (that was reasonable) for expecting the Twins to spend more than the Rays and then completely ignored the Cardinals revenue advantage suggesting the Twins should spend like the Cardinals.  
 

[Squirrel]

17 hours ago, Major League Ready said:

Team revenue is relatively easy to construct.  Most of their revenue is taxable and therefore traceable.  Sponsorship is generally public record and tv revenue is widely distributed.  

Here is STLs revenue the last 20 years. 

https://www.statista.com/statistics/196684/revenue-of-the-st-louis-cardinals-since-2006/

Here is the Twins revenue the last 20 years.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/196669/revenue-of-the-minnesota-twins-since-2006/

2109 $83M incremental revenue or 26% more than the twins.
2018 $87M or 32% more.
2017 $58M or 21% more.
2016 $61M or 24% more
2015 $60M 0r 25% more.

We could go on but what is the point.  This is not news.  You elect to believe what you want to believe and ignore even the most definitive information if it does not suite you.

I bet you still won’t and don’t acknowledge that you used one set of logic (that was reasonable) for expecting the Twins to spend more than the Rays and then completely ignored the Cardinals revenue advantage suggesting the Twins should spend like the Cardinals.  
 

We are not discussing team revenues in this thread. If that's the discussion you want, frame it up, write it out and start your own discussion thread. Or write a blog, or series of blogs, to discuss revenues, small-mid market teams, etc. Seriously. You have much to say, so create your own platform to say it and stop taking other threads off the track. Of late you have taken a few threads off the track, with the help of a few others, please stop. All of you. I get how easy it is when someone mentions how the Twins could afford to do this or that, and there is goes. Don't keep picking up that bait, please. And this thread was only 2 pages in when you started it. Stop doing this.

[Emjay]

On 11/16/2021 at 1:33 PM, LastOnePicked said:

It's always amazing how Falvey and Levine can say so little while using so many words. Corporate to their core. Translation: "Yup, we're trading Buxton. We blew the negotiations, and we now have to try and get what we can before the season starts."

We will be the Baltimore Orioles of the AL Central for the next decade thanks to the shrewd moves they've made over the last few years.

I was thinking the same think...they talk a lot and say nothing; just like their manager Rocco. Blah blah blahhhhh

[Doctor Gast]

Wow, over 70% of TD members which are avid fans wouldn't renew their season tickets. What would that mean to the casual fan. It doesn't look good for the Polhads. 

[Emjay]

On 11/16/2021 at 9:13 PM, darin617 said:

This is a joke right? He has all the talent in the world but can't figure out how to stay healthy.  It's pretty bad when you want a guy to slow things down, what's even worse is when he can't figure it out on his own.

 

You can't break the bank for a guy that might play 100 games.

Be that as it may, you can't just assume that he is going to be injured again in 2022 and make decisions based in that...in fact, I would argue that I saw a difference in the way he played when he came back at the end of last season. He was still brilliant, but he smarter about diving and crashing into the wall. He is a once in decade caliber player, you just don't give up or throw the towel in on that kind of talent.

[Brock Beauchamp]

20 hours ago, Emjay said:

I was thinking the same think...they talk a lot and say nothing; just like their manager Rocco. Blah blah blahhhhh

The thing is, there's very little to be gained by speaking straight-forwardly to the media and public and a lot to be lost through continual aggravation and public scrutiny of the words. Most managers and front offices are *very* dry and non-committal compared to 20-30 years ago for this reason. Apparently Baldelli is a pretty funny, charismatic guy when not in front of a camera, he just has little reason to show us that side of himself when cameras are rolling. I suspect the same is true of Falvey (Levine, being the face of the franchise to the media, is more outwardly charismatic).

[tarheeltwinsfan]

On 11/16/2021 at 1:59 PM, prouster said:

Pretty much where I'm at.

Me too.

 

On 11/16/2021 at 5:16 PM, TwinsDr2021 said:

If they trade Buxton, I also believe they should trade Donaldson, but why sign anybody, it isn't like there will be much of anybody watching or caring about if they lose 90,100,110 or 120 games.

I mean if you don't actually care about winning at the major league level, why pretend?

Wouldn't it best to try the 3 inning pitcher or some other option, when there are no fans to complain about it?

My 13 year old son said if they trade Buxton, lets get the MLB network and find another team to cheer for. He said "today him and a few of his baseball friends were talking at school and they were discussing which team was going to be their new favorite"

In the past I would have tried to convince him not to, and I just said I kind of like the Padres and Blue Jays, who you thinking?

 

 

I'm thinking the Cardinals would be my new favorite team. Terrific tradition and classic brick stadium. Prettiest uniform in the majors. Stan, The Man, Musial, Dizzy Dean, Lou Brock, Ozzie Smith,  and Bob Gibson, The Arch overlooking the stadium on the Mississippi River and the Budweiser Clydesdales prancing around the stadium on Opening Day.  Even after 67 years of pulling for the Senators/Twins franchise,  I can change teams easier than most of you who will be reading this on TD because I live in North Carolina. Or maybe the Braves, home of  WWII veteran, Warren Spahn, Eddie Mathews,  Civil Rights icon and arguably the greatest home run hitter of all time, Hammering Hank Aaron, Dale Murphy, Dave Jolly (who lived 20 miles from my home), Glavine, Smoltz,  Maddox, Joe Adcock,  Bobby Cox and on and on.  This makes more sense than the Twins because  Atlanta is only a  4 hour drive from my home. Plus Atlanta's 2 year old state of the art spring training facility is an hour drive closer to my home than Ft. Myers,  Plus the Braves just won the World Series with an aggressive  young team. My wife and I have been going to spring training each spring for some time until covid hit. Plus I never have liked the DH.  So friends at TD,  I really do enjoy Twins Daily and the civil and thoughtful manner in which we discuss baseball, however here are two  other, more reasonable teams for me to enjoy, I really am tired of the Twins organization at present and I am  thinking about a divorce from the Twins. I don't need this constant disappointment and stress. So maybe a trial separation is in order and some counseling.