Time for a Challenge? Revisiting 6 Twins Challenge Trades

[Tom Froemming]

It feels like it may be time to shake things up with this Minnesota Twins roster. One way to accomplish that would be by making a challenge trade, swapping big league pieces for big league pieces. It’s a risky endeavor. Let’s take a look back at some of these deals. 

There are quite a few of these challenge trades in fairly recent Twins history, but this current Twins front office really hasn’t explored this avenue. The Kenta Maeda deal was close, but Brusdar Graterol only had 10 big league appearances to his credit. He was still a prospect.

Possibly the LaMonte Wade Jr. trade qualifies as a minor challenge trade, as he had 113 plate appearances and Shaun Anderson had 46 career games pitched at the time of the swap. Considering how that one went, maybe it’s good there haven’t been more challenge trades of late …

These deals are risky, but when a team has a surplus or is motivated to make room at the MLB level for a younger player they can make sense. With Josh Donaldson, Jorge Polanco and Luis Arraez already in the third base/second base equation and Jose Miranda waiting in the wings, this current Twins roster could be ripe for a challenge trade. There’s another possible option but I don’t want to ruin your day quite yet.

Let’s take a look back at some of these types of deals from past Twins seasons. All of the trades below were completed during the offseason and included established MLB regulars on both sides of the deal.

Nov. 14, 2003: A.J. Pierzynski traded to the San Francisco Giants for Joe Nathan, Francisco Liriano and Boof Bonser

We’re starting out this list on a high note. One of the ironic elements to this deal is part of its motivation backfired to a degree. In moving AJ Pierzynski, the Twins were making room behind the plate for 20-year-old Joe Mauer. He ended up playing just 35 games in 2004 due to injuries and Henry Blanco ended up as the primary catcher.

The Twins still won 92 games that year in part due to Joe Nathan saving 44 games. He had 128 MLB games to his credit at the time of this deal. We’re focusing on the MLB pieces, but I’d say the prospect side of this package also worked out pretty darn nicely for the Twins.

Dec. 3, 2003: Eric Milton traded to the Philadelphia Phillies for Carlos Silva, Nick Punto and Bobby Korecky

Milton was only a year away from free agency and Carlos Silva had pitched 130 games for the Phillies. Though he only had one career start prior to the trade, Silva was actually a better rotation piece than Milton right out the gate.

I’d say that worked out pretty well. Toss in Punto, who also had some MLB experience at the time of the trade (though only 111 plate appearances) and this one was also a success. Kinda nuts that after back-to-back division championships the Twins made these two big trades and took the central again in ‘04.

Nov. 28, 2007: Jason Bartlett, Matt Garza and Eddie Morlan to the Tampa Bay Rays for Delmon Young, Brendan Harris and Jason Pridie

This was a pretty crazy trade under new GM Bill Smith. A starting shortstop and budding rotation piece for the former No. 1 overall pick and reigning runner-up in Rookie of the Year voting. Plus Brendan Harris and all of his Brendon Harris-ness!

This was an incredible trade … for the Rays. They went from 96 losses to 97 wins and a World Series appearance. Delmon had a great 2010 season with the Twins but was dealt away the next year after fizzling out.

Nov. 6, 2009: Carlos Gomez traded to the Milwaukee Brewers for J.J. Hardy

Gomez went from centerpiece of the Johan Santana deal to trade bait in just two seasons. If you thought that tenure was short, Hardy only lasted one season in Minnesota before being dealt to Baltimore.

Both players found much more success with their new orgs than they had in Minnesota. Man, the Twins made a lot of trades back during this time. 

Dec. 6, 2012: Ben Revere traded to the Philadelphia Phillies for Vance Worley and Trevor May

Terry Ryan was back in the GM role and cleared room for another former first-round pick. The Twins traded both Revere and Denard Span that offseason to open the door for Aaron Hicks in center field.

Worley made 46 starts for the Phillies prior to the trade. His Twins tenure was, uh, less impressive. May ended up developing into a nice bullpen piece, of course, but Hicks struggled to take advantage of his opportunity. Speaking of which ...

Nov. 11, 2015: Aaron Hicks traded to the New York Yankees for John Ryan Murphy

The hope was Murphy would be the long-term solution behind the plate. He was not.

I guess I don’t really remember the motivation to move Hicks. Byron Buxton missed most of the previous season and started the year in Double-A, so it was a bit premature to make room for him. The Twins opened the season with Jordan Schafer and Shane Robinson platooning in center. Ugh.

Looking back, it’s kinda funny how many of these deals revolved around the center field position. I know most Twins fans don’t want to think about this, but it’s time to ruin your day. There’s a possibility of a Buxton challenge trade this winter. We all know it, but most of us don’t want to acknowledge it. I’m on team Pay Byron, but if they don’t extend him … who knows?

What do you think? Should the Twins try to pull off a challenge trade this offseason?

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[big dog]

Thanks, my Twins PTSD just flared up again. John Ryan Murphy. In related news what's the over/under on the number of games Hicks plays this year? I feel for that guy.

[mikelink45]

That was an excellent review.  I enjoyed the memories and some real disappointments.  Getting J J Hardy was excellent, too bad we did not keep him.   Perhaps you did not want to add to the woe, but this headline from Twinkie Town captures the essence of the follow up trade: "It's Official: Twins Trade J.J. Hardy, Brendan Harris, $500,000 to Orioles for Jim Hoey, Brett Jacobson"  Boy was that some trade! 

Then there is Brunansky for Tommy Herr - boy did that salvage the Twins Clubhouse and fan love!

Puckett's Pond covered this one - "Minnesota Twins trade 1B Pat Crosby (minors) and 2B Tim Teufel (7.4 WAR) to the New York Mets for OF Billy Beane (-0.8 WAR), P Joe Klink (-0.3 WAR), and P Bill Latham (-0.3 WAR)."  Teufel goes to the WS with the Mets and we did not even offer Billy Beane a front office job.

Of course there is the trade of Rod Carew due to the racist big mouth of Calvin Griffith! 

Then of course we made the trade of Pressly to Houston and we are still waiting on the return tally while Pressly has gone to the WS.

 

[Trov]

The early trades made a lot of sense, good players overall nearing end of team control to get younger team control guys at areas of need.  Then when Bill Smith took over things went down hill quickly.  He was the type of GM that made trades to just do it without much direction.  Swapping young team controlled guys for other young team controlled guys, but he pulled in a hit first corner OF prospect, which are easy to find, for pitching and SS, which are hard to find.  Then he at least brought in a good defending SS but had to give up decent CF, not a bad move, except for following it up with the terrible trade of the SS for two bullpen pitching prospects UGH.  Bill Smith had some of the worst trades in Twins history.  Every GM will have some bad trades, but Smith was so bad.  I will say he did a good job of some drafts and bringing in some good international guys over his short time as GM.  

I personally am a huge fan of trading guys ending of team control for young team controlled MLB ready guys.  I would never trade away prospects for hit first OF/1b guys.  You can find them so often for cheap in FA market.  Look at what Rays do, they continue to trade away guys near end of their team control years, normally 1 or 2 years left for young controlled prospects.  They rarely miss when they send a guy away or let him walk.  Sure, a few have had decent careers after leaving Rays, but not many.  

If you cannot sign Buck long term, you have to figure you can get more in a trade for him than in what ever you get from someone else signing him as a FA, assuming new CBA will still have FA walking comp. 

[Doctor Gast]

Thanks Tom for your article. There is no doubt in my mind that we should. But our trades should be well calculated, meaning #1 we need to trade from our fat, not muscle. Meaning we trade some one where we can easily substitute with a capable replacement, not a player where we have no one that comes close to replace him. #2  we need to intelligently evaluate our talent and the talent of player of intent.

Example of fat, we have an over abundance at the less demanding corner/ DH positions so we have many options there that we can choose from and right now we have quite a few good pitching prospects which we could spare a couple, we also have good depth at catching.                                                                                                                           Example of muscle, you gave some, Hicks, we had nobody to replace him and Span/ Revere, one maybe but not both leaving a void. NO! CF is a very critical position where you need depth not a void. SS is also a critical position and right now we have a void at SS that needs to be filled, Our future SS Lewis we need to  step up some day, he's our only hope to fill that important position so I wouldn't trade him. CF we've had a great void at Buxton's sub for years. Our future sub and CF is Celestino. If we trade Buxton that would absolutely create such a unbelievably great void in the whole OF. I wouldn't trade Celestino or Kepler unless in Kepler's case only if we could in junction w/ other players get a great pitcher.

Intelligently evaluating our talent and the talent of player of intent. Here I have some doubt with our FO ability to do so. Thinking that Cave is a capable sub for Buxton, is a major misevaluation, if he couldn't eye it he only needed to look at how many games we lost while he was there. I really don't even trust them to be able to cull down from our 40 man efficiently let alone pull off a big trade. In the Maeda/ Graterol trade, the Dodgers came to them and our FO enter that negotiations ignorantly, they could've gotten a much better deal. My impression is that they are uncomfortable initiating big trades, sending out the message "There's no trades out there".   In the lesser Odorizzi trade, I don't know who approached who. I'd give them the benefit of the doubt with hope that they can pull off finally that big trade that we desperately need correctly.

[FritzDahmus]

If it wasn't for the July 31st trade deadline and its timing, most of these trades would not have happened. In the "hot stove league" these trades of desperation -- i.e. for an immediate need to win a championship....are not made. In the off season, teams are more deliberate and thoughtful, cautious even, in making trades. Therefore, teams like the Twins don't see offers of high level prospects for plug-in major league rental talent.

I'm probably wrong, cheap owners will always find creative ways to dump high salaries. 

[Rosterman]

So manmy trades because we had someone newer, probably better, and much cheaper coming to take the place of a player (shades of Doug Mientkiewicz in a mid-season three team trade, too). Of course, that is not across the board, as the Twins traded Garza, a highly touted draft pick for another draft pick, both with issues that most front offices hate to deal with.

 

But keeping in this spirit, the Twins should definitely trade the now getting expensive Buxton because they can put Celestino in centerfield. And next year flip the now aging Celestino because you have to get the cheaper and more promising Martin or Lewis in the everyday lineup.

[LastOnePicked]

Good stuff as always, Tom. The Hicks trade was embarrassingly bad, and rightfully helped to end Ryan's second run as GM. The Yankees saw us coming on that one, as they say. Yuck.

Trading Buxton will likely be the defining moment for this FO, and it may take years to assess the outcome. Will it make the team stronger, exchanging an injury-prone CF for hot prospects and durable MLB-ready talent. Or will we watch Buxton finally set the league on fire for a new team while our meager returns fizzle away, Murphy-style?

For the record, I don't want to see Buxton traded. I'd much rather look back on an interesting Kepler, Arraez, Rooker or Sano trade. But this FO has already totally fumbled the contract extension talks, so once the new CBA is set, I fully expect Buxton to be moved. If so, they better get it right - their legacy here absolutely depends on it.

[Tom Froemming]

5 hours ago, FritzDahmus said:

If it wasn't for the July 31st trade deadline and its timing, most of these trades would not have happened. In the "hot stove league" these trades of desperation -- i.e. for an immediate need to win a championship....are not made. In the off season, teams are more deliberate and thoughtful, cautious even, in making trades. Therefore, teams like the Twins don't see offers of high level prospects for plug-in major league rental talent.

I'm probably wrong, cheap owners will always find creative ways to dump high salaries. 

Huh? All of the examples in this article were offseason trades made in November or December. 

[Linus]

Thanks for the article Tom I really enjoyed it. Really drives home the point that trades like this can really be impactful good or bad.