Debate No. 2: Who was the better player: Kirby Puckett or Joe Mauer? (Debate/poll concluded - thread open)

[Otto von Ballpark]

Another interesting thing I found is that Mauer and Puckett actually had fairly similar chances to swing their first postseason games late. Both came up against the starting pitcher in the bottom of the 8th, with their teams down by 1 run, and the potential tying run on base.

And you might be surprised to hear that they both swung at the first pitch!

But where Puckett's first-pitch swing produced a one-out double to left-center that scored the tying run all the way from first (and chased the starter from the game), Mauer's first-pitch swing produced a lineout to left which ended the inning, stranding the potential tying run at second. Their respective postseason narratives probably started diverging in those early moments.

I haven't been able to find video of Mauer's out, but I found Puckett's hit:

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

4 hours ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

For those wondering, here are the results of our highly scientific pre- and post-debate polls (margin of error 100%):

 

I narrowed the gap significantly!

Frankly, I’m surprised it was that close. I went into the debate giving myself a zero percent chance of actually winning. 

[tony&rodney]

Puckett was amazing but all the arguments and numbers must acknowledge the differences between playing CF and C. It is/was a great debate and will continue no doubt. Joe Mauer, for some reason, remains under appreciated for his career by many Twins fans. He is an all time top ten catcher in baseball history. Even if we say Kirby belongs among the top ten centerfielders in baseball history, the position of catcher is a unicorn in the game. The Houston Astros are delighted to play a catcher who hit .130 this year. Heck the Twins were delighted with a similar catcher hitting .191, Tim Laudner. I love the argument but it is somewhat unfair to compare such different position players. Mauer was a special player and I don't believe we will see his equal in a Twins uniform.

[adorduan]

People can debate the stats forever. One thing that is hard to dispute is that one was must see, the other like watching paint dry.....

[h2oface]

On 11/20/2021 at 5:14 AM, Nine of twelve said:

I guess the point I was trying to make is that any individual thing people have cited, including WAR, does not on its own indicate who was more talented or who was better at playing the game, and some of those things should not be considered at all. As an example, Ted Williams never played a postseason game, and I don't think anyone could legitimately say that that made him less of a player.

Ted played in the 1946 World Series (all 7 games) and hit .200..... see end of first page comment.

[Nine of twelve]

13 hours ago, h2oface said:

Ted played in the 1946 World Series (all 7 games) and hit .200.....

Oh. Oops.

[glunn]

On 11/19/2021 at 1:15 PM, Brock Beauchamp said:

Fair enough, I actually don't disagree with a lot of the RBI/Run stuff. Puckett was more aggressive, which is great, but Mauer's "passiveness" also has its benefit of not making an out and turning the PA over to Morneau. Advantage to Kirby but it's not a huge gulf because counting stats are pretty meh when comparing a guy who plays 140 games versus a guy who plays 160.

But in response to this, I'll ask you one question, Steve:

Explain why your "easy choice" wasn't much better than average outside the Metrodome. If he was so great, why was he so damned normal outside that one, way-out-of-the-ordinary, batting environment? If he was so naturally talented as a player and hitter, why couldn't he hit within 100 points of his Metrodome OPS on the road?

Not a single Puckett supporter will recognize and rebut this obviously important aspect of evaluating Puckett's true talent level as a baseball player.

It's just bonkers when you look at it. Kirby Puckett scored 626 runs in the Metrodome and only 445 on the road. He drove in 601 runs in the Metrodome and only 484 on the road.

All of this stuff is linked but no Puckett supporter will even acknowledge the greater point because I think it completely torpedoes Puckett's case against Mauer.

Is it possible that this was partly a psychological phenomenon?  Maybe Puck was inspired by the home field fan energy, and would have excelled in home games regardless of the ballpark configuration?

[h2oface]

It appears that @Brock Beauchamp has unmasked himself as the Mauer debater. Maybe I keep missing it, but has this been officially unmasked in the thread? Perhaps when you do, instead of burying it in the thread somewhere, like debate 1, it could be added to the heading so it is easy to go back and see?

[Brock Beauchamp]

1 hour ago, glunn said:

Is it possible that this was partly a psychological phenomenon?  Maybe Puck was inspired by the home field fan energy, and would have excelled in home games regardless of the ballpark configuration?

Maybe… but Puckett played for a bunch of really bad baseball teams in front of 8,000 people on a Tuesday, though. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

45 minutes ago, h2oface said:

It appears that @Brock Beauchamp has unmasked himself as the Mauer debater. Maybe I keep missing it, but has this been officially unmasked in the thread? Perhaps when you do, instead of burying it in the thread somewhere, like debate 1, it could be added to the heading so it is easy to go back and see?

I don’t know if the organizers have set up a protocol for announcing the debaters’ identities but this is a good idea, we’ll put it at the top if we announce them. 

[tony&rodney]

22 hours ago, adorduan said:

People can debate the stats forever. One thing that is hard to dispute is that one was must see, the other like watching paint dry.....

Wait, what? Puckett or Mauer was like watching paint dry? I totally don't get this. If you ever played baseball, you would easily  recognize that both players were really an exciting psychological battle as opponents. Having managed a ton of games, pitched  hundreds of games  and caught over a hundred I would offer that these two are about as difficult to approach as anyone, even if they had completely different styles. The comment was a total, huh? I respectfully wonder how those words were accumulated.

[Squirrel]

2 hours ago, h2oface said:

It appears that @Brock Beauchamp has unmasked himself as the Mauer debater. Maybe I keep missing it, but has this been officially unmasked in the thread? Perhaps when you do, instead of burying it in the thread somewhere, like debate 1, it could be added to the heading so it is easy to go back and see?

There hasn't been an 'official reveal' on this debate yet as we are still waiting to hear from Poster A whether or not they want to reveal themselves. Brock just went ahead and revealed himself as Poster B. Since this is only the 2nd debate, we're still figuring out some of these finer details, so your suggestion is a good one and we will find a way to do this so it isn't buried in thread. For the first debate, we just revealed the participants at the end of the thread, but that thread didn't garner quite the same response as this one, so, revealing in this thread would definitely get lost where it didn't in that one, so we will find a way so it's not.  Thanks for the suggestion.

And, if you want to participate, please let us know.  

[Otto von Ballpark]

What you've all been waiting for...

Thanks to our participants jharaldson (Debater A: Puckett) and Brock Beauchamp (Debater B: Mauer).

[USAFChief]

Kudos to both jharaldson and Brock for incredibly good and entertaining debate points.

Really well done. 

[glunn]

14 minutes ago, USAFChief said:

Kudos to both jharaldson and Brock for incredibly good and entertaining debate points.

Really well done. 

Ditto.  I thought that this was an excellent debate.

[tony&rodney]

Congratulations and thank you to a job well done to both debaters; excellent.

[spanman2]

Great job to all involved fun to read all the opinions and stats etc...Id take Mauer in the 2 hole and Puck hitting behind him.  Sign me up for that!

[twinssporto]

I'm old enough to have watched both players. I have to go with Puckett. He just seemed like more of a leader in the clubhouse. As some else suggested a "spark plug". 

[Battle ur tail off]

Mauer was a great, great player. One of the very best in Twins history. But what Puckett did in the postseason just automatically makes him the best. In fact, it makes him the very best player to ever put on a Twins uni, whether his numbers say it or not. 

He flat out just won them games in the postseason. His numbers in the postseason also dwarf Mauers. That and the game 6 homerun was the single biggest moment in Minnesota sports history and it's not close. Not only do I feel like he is the #1 player in Twins history, he is the #1 athlete in Minnesota in bold print with a bullet, a star and a sticker. 

[Trov]

I enjoyed reading the debate, overall well put together so far.  I think part of the issue is the two different eras and the different parks.  One points out Puckett had huge home road splits, but Joe played in era where HR's were up overall.  If you want to look at just on field numbers, Joe may have the edge, but if you want say look at the impact on the team, Puckett in a landslide.  He was the Twins, and he had the personality to lead.  Joe is not a leader, and never wanted to be the leader.  The team looked at him to be the guy because of his skill and pay, but he never wanted to be that guy.  

Joe was a great player and should go to HOF like Puckett.  But Puckett understood as the number 3 guy his job was to drive in runs, not just get on base.  Joe was the type of guy that he would take a strike right down the middle with a runner on 3rd and 1 out and eventually take a walk, only to have the next guy hit into double play not scoring a run.  Puckett would do what he could to get ball in play to drive in the run. They had nearly as many at-bats with RISP, but Puckett drove in over 150 runs more.  That is because he wanted the run to score, Joe just did not want to make an out. 

The old saying, Puckett played to win the game, Joe played to no lose it.  I remember one time Joe had tying run on second base, 2 outs. Joe tried to bunt for a hit because the 3rd baseman was way back.  It did not work.  I was not upset about trying to bunt for hits, I had a problem that he was trying to bunt for a hit when a single to OF would most likely tie the game.  Had Joe got his hit, he would raise his OBP with RISP, but not drive in the run, but he passed the buck to the next guy to drive in the run.  Puck would have tried to get the hit to drive in the run no matter where the 3rd baseman was playing.  

I loved Joe, and defended him many times, but if we are in Game 7 and I had pick between Joe or Puckett be in my lineup, understanding they played different positions, I pick Puckett every time, but he would tell the team jump on my back I got you, Joe would say, "who is going to step up for me?" Joe is the type of guy you want on your team when you have guys like Puckett around him. 

I am not bashing on Joe, but just pointing out I think Puck was the better player to have on your team, but if you want to look at pure numbers, and the fact Joe did it as a catcher, which is crazy numbers, then yeah he did better.  

[Greglw3]

My pick is Joe Mauer. Both were great defensive players. I think Mauer, through no fault of his own, had his performance lowered by concussions.

The real difference is that Mauer accomplished something the no catcher in the AL in the history of baseball had, that being winning a batting title as a catcher. To do it 3 times as a catcher is mind boggling!

Further Mauer had a season of .365 with 28HR in one of his batting titles and a .444 OBP afor his season that got him the big contract. Puckett’s batting title (1) was ,339, lower than 2 of Mauer’s batting titles. Another of Mauer’s batting titles featured a .347 average with a .429 OBP.

Another factor is that Mauer won an MVP award while Puckett never won one.  As far as championships, I was very displeased that they didn’t take full advantage of having Mauer and Morneau by adding the pieces that would have put them over the top

After all that, I firmly believe that Rod Carew is the best player in Twins history.

 

[Greglw3]

On 6/27/2022 at 1:53 PM, Battle ur tail off said:

Mauer was a great, great player. One of the very best in Twins history. But what Puckett did in the postseason just automatically makes him the best. In fact, it makes him the very best player to ever put on a Twins uni, whether his numbers say it or not. 

He flat out just won them games in the postseason. His numbers in the postseason also dwarf Mauers. That and the game 6 homerun was the single biggest moment in Minnesota sports history and it's not close. Not only do I feel like he is the #1 player in Twins history, he is the #1 athlete in Minnesota in bold print with a bullet, a star and a sticker. 

Kirby Puckett was not a better player than Rod Carew, one of the few best hitters in baseball history. I honestly think you missed Carew’s career. Only then can you appreciate his greatness. He belongs with names like Honus Wagner. 

[RpR]

With simple talent as the decider, Mauer was the better player; best Twin ever Harmon Killebrew.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I just read through this entire thing as a reminder of the system before we roll it out to Brewer Fanatic. This was a really good debate and props to @jharaldsonfor being such a quality opponent. 

[RpR]

If Maurer had stayed at catcher, Mauer.