Help Me Understand Falvey and Levine’s Obsession with Waiver Wire Pitchers

[bean5302]

55 minutes ago, 4twinsJA said:

Hopefully new CBA will reduce motivation for teams to hold done prospects, Not sure how that would look, but needs to be addressed.

If I were running the MLBPA, I would be aiming for the following:

• Maximum team control age 31 at the start of season.
• MLB Service Year = 75 days on the MLB roster for team control purposes
• All players who have not become MiLB free agents or cleared waivers have 2 pre-arb years as if they're "Super Twos"
• All players have a maximum of 2 arbitration eligible years.
• Any player clearing DFA/outright waivers has maximum team control reduced to 1 pre-arb.
• Any MiLB free agent has a maximum team control reduced to 1 pre-arb
• Competitive Balance Tax: Luxury tax to be applied in the reverse manner based on a salary floor of 45% of the threshold to increase competition for free agents.
  • i.e. 2021 = $210MM *.45 = $94.50MM.
  • $74.50MM to $94.49MM = 20% tax on amount below $94.50MM 1st year, 30% 2nd year, 50% 3rd year.
  • $54.50MM to $74.49MM = 12% surcharge tax in addition to tax above.
  • Less than $54.50MM = 42.5% surcharge 1st year and 45% in subsequent years + 10 position loss in MLB draft.
  • example Cleveland = $48.74MM payroll this year = 94.50 - 48.74 = $45.76MM below minimum, 2 consecutive years. (30% tax + 45% surcharge) + 10 position first round draft pick loss. Surcharge = $34.32MM tax.

[Mike Sixel]

I'd aim for free agency at age 29 if you aren't signed. 27 if in the minors. 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I think this season we’d see Duran, Thorpe, etc but they’ve been injured. 
 

with Thorpe, close to ready to come back, they needed an Arm for emergencies that DFA’ing and losing wouldn’t hurt.

this current stretch is likely 40 man management while they wait for arms to get healthy/rehab.

[Mike Sixel]

I'll be somewhat surprised if Thorpe is in this organization next year. 

[Seth Stohs]

8 hours ago, bean5302 said:

Most logical explanations?

• Falvey doesn't believe in the talent level or readiness of the prospects at the high minors.
• Falvey is stronly confident in what they have at the high minors and has already decided who is going to be on the 40 man next year. He doesn't believe it's necessary to showcase the players.

I think both of these are probably true to some degree. I don't think Cano has done anything at AAA that screams for a call up. Moran ... I think he's ready, or at least close. I think they know they'll add him. Obviously Miranda too. 

I also think... why not check out some arms that you can get for free. Give them a couple of weeks or a month, see what's there, and move on (good or bad). The Rays do this all the time. The Blue Jays are notorious for it. Cleveland has done well. The Twins have done well with claims over the years. Just another way to add players and see. 

[Rosterman]

I totally agree. Sure, Covid basically stalled the careers of most minor league guys, while hastening the time they become Rule 5 or a free agent. But it was across the board for ALL teams.

 

The Twins have added 33+ minor league free agents/waiver claims to their top two tiers this season alone. That has to be a new record. 

 

My sheet here shows Ian Gibault, Ian Hamilton, Kevin Broxton, Chandler Shepherd, Roberto Pena, Damek Tomscha, Glenn Sparkman, Peter Mooney, Robinson Leyer, Jermaine Palacios (who was actually a Twin and is still young), Drew Maggi, Andrew Albers (who was actually a Twin and is quite old), Chris Nunn, John Mitchell, Andrew Romaine, Mitchel Osnowitz, Aaron Rozek, Jordon Milbrath, B.J. Boyd, D.J. Burt, Matt Mellenbach, Eric Minoah, Sherman Johnson, Brandon Koch, Rob Whalen, Daniel Descalso, Bobby Milacki, Jason Garcia, Wilbis Santiago, Kyle Barraclough, Sean Gilmartin, Drew Stankiewicz, Joe Harvey, Breckin Williams, Orlando Rodriguez plus Joe Kurzia in a cash pickup from The Rangers (and now gone). 

 

Oh, and Andrew Vasquez is still with the Twins organization again, and doing okay as his hair turns gray in the Saints bullpen.

 

That is one helluva a lot of players taking playing time from prospects. You'd think the Twins were bare at the two upper levels. Maybe they were with all the injuries.

 

And then we got the ones came thru the majors now and forever: Luke Farrell, Derek Law, Brandon Waddell, Juan Minaya and Danny Coulombe (both who were also around last year but dropped off the 40-man at times), Beau Burrows, Nick Vincent, Ralph Garza...and let us not forget Tomas Tellis (who was on the 25-man but never played a game), J.T. Riddle, Tsu-Wei Lin, Kyle Garlick, Rob Refsnyder. 

 

Wow, half a hundred! Let's get together and make a couple of teams!

 

 

You can always argue that a couple of these signings do make the roster, when guys go on a 60-man injury list or prospects do bad in spring training and get waived themselves. That's where Garlick and then Refsnyder got lucky, at the expense of Wade and Baddoo in the scheme of things...maybe.

 

 

But I was just thinking about going into the final 30-40 games of the season, and would the Twins really be better served with their current roster, or does butcher Thingvall get his way and we do something like this. You cut loose Pineda, Colome, Simmons and Cave. I doubt any of the four would really be back in 2022, and you give them all an opportunity to possibly get a job with another club, maybe be part of the playoff hunt (Pineda and new closer Colome).

 

Do we really owe it to them to give us their major league caliber play to make our season even better, and in the process increasing their value as free agents? 

 

The Twins get some salary relief, maybe enough money back in the bank to pay for ALL these waiver wire claims and minor league free agent salaries from 2021.

That's four 40-man spots you open. You can for sure add Miranda and Moran into the mix right now. That's two spots of guys you will be adding anyways. You go ahead and bring back Thorpe, and if you need to have Gordon to play the outfield with Arraez. (Don't get me started on that stuff).

The bubble players currently in Twins-land are Vincent, Thielbar, Garza, Minaya, Rooker, Burrows, and Astudillo. Farrell, if he comes back, would be in that mix. Oh, and Coulombe.

 

As a side note, the Twins get to make hard decisions on disabled list players in the off-season. Hopefully Duran starts to get a few starts so he can be better prepared to jump to the majors sometime in 2022. But Edwar Colina would be basically a free agent if you cut him, and more than a season away anyways (do you think?). Law, Stashak, Garlick, Smeltzer...I really don't see anyone jumping on these guys. Has their time come and gone with the Twins? Even Dobnak. He still has an option season with the Twins. Would anyone grab him and his salary and add them to their own 40-man? Would Twins fans have a sigh of relief? Would Dobnak be the second coming of Nick Balckburn playing out his contract in the Twins minors, or remember when Glen Perkins was basically available and everyone passed and he accepted the assignment to Twins minors before finding life as a bullpen stopper?

 

And, remember, we have six guys on the 60-day, which means the Twins currently carry a roster of 46 players. I know I have trouble getting my 46-inch waist into my old size-40 jeans.

 

I still want to see Ryan added for the last weeks of the season, as well as Strotman and Balazovic, already on the roster, cross the river and pitch for the Twins when the rosters can go to 28. Hell, I would like to see them now, and the Twins basically run with a six-man rotation for the remainder of the season with some starters doubling up on each other.

 

Yeah, I would like to see Hamilton, but I wonder if the Twins are just keeping him out of the mix with the hopes that if they don't have room to add him, he will somehow stay. You suddenly start to realize how much baseball really plays with the life of players.

 

Yes, the Twins need to make worthwhile additions, guys who can get a jump on what they need to work on in the winter. Is the prospect of having them play Fall League baseball and NOT adding them to the roster before the season end part of the play? Those are the tough decisions (like Colina, he will burn thru 3 years of 40-man and not sure where he will end up). The Twins have enough fears that people will see a jump start in Sands or Villamont...let's keep Wallner at High A to escape the Curse of Baddoo...

 

But, yes...will you really keep Vincent on the 40-man. Or Thielbar? Coming off a disaster season.

 

Adds to the 40-man for sure: Joe Ryan, Jovani Moran, Ian Hamilton, Josh WInder, Cole Sands, Jose Miranda, Royce Lewis. I could open those roster spots tomorrow and, except for Royce, have them all on the field for the remainder of the season (okay, Josh is down, too).

 

P.S. We also have to remember that Byron Buxton MIGHT still be returning to double his games played for the season. That would, for sure, knock someone off the current 25-man roster.

 

[Vanimal46]

2 hours ago, Seth Stohs said:

I think both of these are probably true to some degree. I don't think Cano has done anything at AAA that screams for a call up. Moran ... I think he's ready, or at least close. I think they know they'll add him. Obviously Miranda too. 

I also think... why not check out some arms that you can get for free. Give them a couple of weeks or a month, see what's there, and move on (good or bad). The Rays do this all the time. The Blue Jays are notorious for it. Cleveland has done well. The Twins have done well with claims over the years. Just another way to add players and see. 

Why wouldn’t they want to give their own prospects a couple of weeks, or a month, to get them ready for 2022? 

[Seth Stohs]

7 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

Why wouldn’t they want to give their own prospects a couple of weeks, or a month, to get them ready for 2022? 

They're getting that now, in AAA... They're already in the organization. This is an opportunity to bring in my "talent" (or possible talent). 

[jkcarew]

9 hours ago, yeahyabetcha said:

It might be a minority opinion, but I don’t see any Twins minor league pitching options that would have to see the majors this year.  The best arms are either injured, coming off injuries or frankly have not been all that awesome.  Moran might be the exception, but he has barely even pitched at AAA

This. Among pitchers, other than Moran, who is it that we would like to see that we haven’t already been seeing? None of the top starting prospects have been healthy long enough to shove them up to the big club. Vasquez?….Albers?…Hamilton we’ve seen. Cano hasn’t been good.

And in regards to Miranda, something has to happen with Donaldson first…they’re not bringing him up to split time with Donaldson.

That leaves us with the SS conundrum. And in this case, I really do believe the Twins don’t like any of the immediate alternatives to Simmons. I wish they’d throw Palacios in there, but I think that would cost them some 40-man flexibility that they don’t want to give up quite yet.

[Vanimal46]

Sorry, busy day normally I don’t post and ditch. From what I gathered the majority reason for not preferring waiver wire picks over their own picks like Moran is they’re going to be picked for the 40 man this winter. Which is kind of putting the cart before the horse. Who was Moran before this year? Under the radar. Is he a flash in the pan like Vasquez back in 2018? Only one way to find out… The other reason that was brought up is not being confident in the pipeline at AAA. Which is a much, much bigger problem. 

[Vanimal46]

31 minutes ago, Seth Stohs said:

They're getting that now, in AAA... They're already in the organization. This is an opportunity to bring in my "talent" (or possible talent). 

That’s one way to dodge the question I suppose. Why aren’t they wearing a Twins uniform getting experience to be ready for 2022? The irony will be on opening day next year we’ll have to keep them down in St. Paul to start the season because they don’t have MLB experience. Just like Kirilloff this year. 

[Seth Stohs]

6 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

That’s one way to dodge the question I suppose. Why aren’t they wearing a Twins uniform getting experience to be ready for 2022? The irony will be on opening day next year we’ll have to keep them down in St. Paul to start the season because they don’t have MLB experience. Just like Kirilloff this year. 

If they perform in spring training like Kirilloff did this year, yes, they should start next season in St. Paul. And, they are going to have to address the bullpen this offseason regardless. I expect we'll see Hamilton and Moran in the near future. No rush. We've seen enough guys come up and do great for 4-6-8 weeks, and not be ready . 

I know I would enjoy watching Jovani Moran get innings now. For sure. And I can't explain why he's not. We also all want Ian Hamilton called up, but he was a waiver claim too. 

Edgar Garcia... eye test sure tells me that he's got really good stuff. Big fastball. Movement. Good slider. Looking at the numbers in MLB, not good... but he's 24. Why not take a shot on a guy like that? 

Garza's a little less interesting, but he's got a unique, Romo-like delivery and arm slot. He's only 27. Maybe there's something there. He is coming from a good organization. 

Nick Vincent? I don't know. I don't know why you bring up a 35-year-old. That said, I've said all year that they would need a lot of pitchers this year because so many young pitchers missed 2020. They'll certainly monitor Barnes, Ober and Jax the rest of the way. Same thing with guys like Winder (who's already been shut down at least temporarily). I think the #1 priority is to take care of the arms that are part of the future. Hamilton and Moran are young. I'd hope they're monitoring their innings. 

They still have to get through 6-7 weeks of season?  

I don't pretend to know what Best Practices are. Especially following a missed season for so many. I'll trust people who do it for a living.... while hoping to see Moran soon. 

[jkcarew]

12 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

That’s one way to dodge the question I suppose. Why aren’t they wearing a Twins uniform getting experience to be ready for 2022?

I would normally agree with this sentiment, but in this specific instance…who is ‘they’?…other than Moran? Pitching-wise, there is nothing currently available at AAA level (again other than Moran) that does anything more for me than the waiver wire guys. And the guys lower don’t seem ready…primarily due to recent health issues…even for an audition.

Failing a Donaldson trade at the deadline, expecting them to bench or have their top FA signing split time with a prospect is not realistic. And as for SS, it seems clear they don’t see anyone at AAA…including Gordon…as being a legitimate option.

[RpR]

26 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

That’s one way to dodge the question I suppose. Why aren’t they wearing a Twins uniform getting experience to be ready for 2022? The irony will be on opening day next year we’ll have to keep them down in St. Paul to start the season because they don’t have MLB experience. Just like Kirilloff this year. 

Partly because the AAA teams have their own Championship which is important to the teams, towns and players there.

I have read more than one article where jacking players around screws up the season for the AAA managers and teams; because they WANT TO WIN that championship just as much as any.

[Unwinder]

6 hours ago, Seth Stohs said:

I also think... why not check out some arms that you can get for free. Give them a couple of weeks or a month, see what's there, and move on (good or bad). The Rays do this all the time. The Blue Jays are notorious for it. Cleveland has done well. The Twins have done well with claims over the years. Just another way to add players and see. 

I believe this is a big part of it, it's numbers guys playing a numbers game. There are bad pitchers somewhere out there who the Twins can fix, and every time they grab a guy off waivers they're increasing their chances of landing on one. If they tool around with Burrows for a couple of weeks and it doesn't work out, Moran is still right where they left him. If they win the lottery and it turns out that all Burrows needed to break out was for someone to tell him to throw more sliders, they're in a stronger position than they were in before.

[a-wan]

The pitching has been so bad this year, why ruin the expensive and fancy deck chairs as the ship sinks? When  you can bring in recycled deck chairs that you don’t care about if they go down with the ship?

[Major League Ready]

17 hours ago, Mike Sixel said:

I'd aim for free agency at age 29 if you aren't signed. 27 if in the minors. 

If your goal is too significantly widen the gap in competitive balance, this would be a good way to do it.  My concern is just the opposite.  If MLB players were scratching out a living, I would agree with you.  Given they are the best compensated work force on the planet, I prefer to concentrate on changes that give mid and small market teams a better chance.  The Dodgers / Yankees and a few other teams would absolutely dominate under such a system.

I also think we may not understand how early free agency would impact the gap between the top paid players and other players.  There is only so much money to go around so early free agency likely distributes more to the very top players and probably has the effect of the rest of the players getting less.  Also, it could impact competitive balance enough that total revenue goes down and there will be less to distribute to players.  There is a reason the NFL / NHL and NBA have rules that protect team control.

[roger]

13 hours ago, Rosterman said:

I totally agree. Sure, Covid basically stalled the careers of most minor league guys, while hastening the time they become Rule 5 or a free agent. But it was across the board for ALL teams.

 

The Twins have added 33+ minor league free agents/waiver claims to their top two tiers this season alone. That has to be a new record. 

 

My sheet here shows Ian Gibault, Ian Hamilton, Kevin Broxton, Chandler Shepherd, Roberto Pena, Damek Tomscha, Glenn Sparkman, Peter Mooney, Robinson Leyer, Jermaine Palacios (who was actually a Twin and is still young), Drew Maggi, Andrew Albers (who was actually a Twin and is quite old), Chris Nunn, John Mitchell, Andrew Romaine, Mitchel Osnowitz, Aaron Rozek, Jordon Milbrath, B.J. Boyd, D.J. Burt, Matt Mellenbach, Eric Minoah, Sherman Johnson, Brandon Koch, Rob Whalen, Daniel Descalso, Bobby Milacki, Jason Garcia, Wilbis Santiago, Kyle Barraclough, Sean Gilmartin, Drew Stankiewicz, Joe Harvey, Breckin Williams, Orlando Rodriguez plus Joe Kurzia in a cash pickup from The Rangers (and now gone). 

 

Oh, and Andrew Vasquez is still with the Twins organization again, and doing okay as his hair turns gray in the Saints bullpen.

 

That is one helluva a lot of players taking playing time from prospects. You'd think the Twins were bare at the two upper levels. Maybe they were with all the injuries.

 

And then we got the ones came thru the majors now and forever: Luke Farrell, Derek Law, Brandon Waddell, Juan Minaya and Danny Coulombe (both who were also around last year but dropped off the 40-man at times), Beau Burrows, Nick Vincent, Ralph Garza...and let us not forget Tomas Tellis (who was on the 25-man but never played a game), J.T. Riddle, Tsu-Wei Lin, Kyle Garlick, Rob Refsnyder. 

 

Wow, half a hundred! Let's get together and make a couple of teams!

 

 

You can always argue that a couple of these signings do make the roster, when guys go on a 60-man injury list or prospects do bad in spring training and get waived themselves. That's where Garlick and then Refsnyder got lucky, at the expense of Wade and Baddoo in the scheme of things...maybe.

 

 

But I was just thinking about going into the final 30-40 games of the season, and would the Twins really be better served with their current roster, or does butcher Thingvall get his way and we do something like this. You cut loose Pineda, Colome, Simmons and Cave. I doubt any of the four would really be back in 2022, and you give them all an opportunity to possibly get a job with another club, maybe be part of the playoff hunt (Pineda and new closer Colome).

 

Do we really owe it to them to give us their major league caliber play to make our season even better, and in the process increasing their value as free agents? 

 

The Twins get some salary relief, maybe enough money back in the bank to pay for ALL these waiver wire claims and minor league free agent salaries from 2021.

That's four 40-man spots you open. You can for sure add Miranda and Moran into the mix right now. That's two spots of guys you will be adding anyways. You go ahead and bring back Thorpe, and if you need to have Gordon to play the outfield with Arraez. (Don't get me started on that stuff).

The bubble players currently in Twins-land are Vincent, Thielbar, Garza, Minaya, Rooker, Burrows, and Astudillo. Farrell, if he comes back, would be in that mix. Oh, and Coulombe.

 

As a side note, the Twins get to make hard decisions on disabled list players in the off-season. Hopefully Duran starts to get a few starts so he can be better prepared to jump to the majors sometime in 2022. But Edwar Colina would be basically a free agent if you cut him, and more than a season away anyways (do you think?). Law, Stashak, Garlick, Smeltzer...I really don't see anyone jumping on these guys. Has their time come and gone with the Twins? Even Dobnak. He still has an option season with the Twins. Would anyone grab him and his salary and add them to their own 40-man? Would Twins fans have a sigh of relief? Would Dobnak be the second coming of Nick Balckburn playing out his contract in the Twins minors, or remember when Glen Perkins was basically available and everyone passed and he accepted the assignment to Twins minors before finding life as a bullpen stopper?

 

And, remember, we have six guys on the 60-day, which means the Twins currently carry a roster of 46 players. I know I have trouble getting my 46-inch waist into my old size-40 jeans.

 

I still want to see Ryan added for the last weeks of the season, as well as Strotman and Balazovic, already on the roster, cross the river and pitch for the Twins when the rosters can go to 28. Hell, I would like to see them now, and the Twins basically run with a six-man rotation for the remainder of the season with some starters doubling up on each other.

 

Yeah, I would like to see Hamilton, but I wonder if the Twins are just keeping him out of the mix with the hopes that if they don't have room to add him, he will somehow stay. You suddenly start to realize how much baseball really plays with the life of players.

 

Yes, the Twins need to make worthwhile additions, guys who can get a jump on what they need to work on in the winter. Is the prospect of having them play Fall League baseball and NOT adding them to the roster before the season end part of the play? Those are the tough decisions (like Colina, he will burn thru 3 years of 40-man and not sure where he will end up). The Twins have enough fears that people will see a jump start in Sands or Villamont...let's keep Wallner at High A to escape the Curse of Baddoo...

 

But, yes...will you really keep Vincent on the 40-man. Or Thielbar? Coming off a disaster season.

 

Adds to the 40-man for sure: Joe Ryan, Jovani Moran, Ian Hamilton, Josh WInder, Cole Sands, Jose Miranda, Royce Lewis. I could open those roster spots tomorrow and, except for Royce, have them all on the field for the remainder of the season (okay, Josh is down, too).

 

P.S. We also have to remember that Byron Buxton MIGHT still be returning to double his games played for the season. That would, for sure, knock someone off the current 25-man roster.

 

A lot here, almost too much to digest.  Correct me if I am wrong, however, I believe if they waive/release players such as Simmons, Pineda, etc., they still need to pay them the entire salary remaining for the rest of the year.  The only way they are off the hook for that is if someone claims them when waived.  So they wouldn't receive any salary relief, matter of fact it would go up as they would need to pay one of the young guys the minimum while also paying the waived player.

[MN_ExPat]

20 hours ago, Otto von Ballpark said:

In regards to team control, I mentioned that Moran is already controlled through age 30.

I'm sure the FO always has service time and control on their mind -- it can come up at odd times, like the Buxton situation in 2018 -- but right now, for our minor league pitchers, it's just not much of a factor. I just did a run-down above, and frankly I think Moran is the only healthy one ready to jump to MLB. In addition to injuries, the lost 2020 minor league season, and delayed 2021 start, hurt too.

Again, not arguing against that point or even saying that service time is much of a factor.  It was really just an additional bullet point thought .  Yes, most likely a trivial point with many of the minor leaguers, but a point none the less.

[Benneac]

Agree with all I'm reading here.  In other news J.A. Happ currently has an ERA south of 2.00 for the Cardinals.  What makes a guy stink it up here and then  go somewhere else and have a big turnaround.  Another example?  Lance Lynn.

[Mike Sixel]

20 minutes ago, Benneac said:

Agree with all I'm reading here.  In other news J.A. Happ currently has an ERA south of 2.00 for the Cardinals.  What makes a guy stink it up here and then  go somewhere else and have a big turnaround.  Another example?  Lance Lynn.

Lance Lynn  was signed at the last minute, and was angry he wasn't signed earlier. That year was never going to be good for him, imo, and had zero to do with the FO (other than not signing him immediately, maybe). 

[Seth Stohs]

Zack Burdi was just DFAd by the White Sox. 26. Hard thrower. Lots of strikeouts. Lots of walks. Had Tommy John two years ago. Certainly an intriguing arm, to be sure. 

My guess is someone ahead of them will claim him, but this is an arm I would like the Twins to consider claiming. 

[Vanimal46]

15 hours ago, jkcarew said:

I would normally agree with this sentiment, but in this specific instance…who is ‘they’?…other than Moran? Pitching-wise, there is nothing currently available at AAA level (again other than Moran) that does anything more for me than the waiver wire guys. And the guys lower don’t seem ready…primarily due to recent health issues…even for an audition.

Failing a Donaldson trade at the deadline, expecting them to bench or have their top FA signing split time with a prospect is not realistic. And as for SS, it seems clear they don’t see anyone at AAA…including Gordon…as being a legitimate option.

That’s the much bigger issue of still not having talent in the pipeline ready for an audition similar to 2016 and 2018… Moran is the clear choice as you pointed out. I’m surprised he’s been passed over 3 times in recent weeks for waiver wire players. Cano isn’t lighting it up in AAA but I would still give him an audition to see if he catches SSS lighting in a bottle. If he doesn’t, well, that helps eliminating a name in consideration for 2022. Others to consider are the starting pitchers who will be shut down to inning limits sooner than later. The old St. Louis method of getting their SP’s feet wet in a bullpen role before they start the following year. 

[Brock Beauchamp]

2 hours ago, Benneac said:

Agree with all I'm reading here.  In other news J.A. Happ currently has an ERA south of 2.00 for the Cardinals.  What makes a guy stink it up here and then  go somewhere else and have a big turnaround.  Another example?  Lance Lynn.

Lynn was bad for a month because he held out through half of Spring Training. After he worked himself into the flow of the season, he was pretty good for the Twins, which is why the Yankees wanted him at the deadline.

What about John Gant? He was horrible for the Cardinals and has been a good reliever in a SSS with the Twins.

[chpettit19]

2 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

That’s the much bigger issue of still not having talent in the pipeline ready for an audition similar to 2016 and 2018… Moran is the clear choice as you pointed out. I’m surprised he’s been passed over 3 times in recent weeks for waiver wire players. Cano isn’t lighting it up in AAA but I would still give him an audition to see if he catches SSS lighting in a bottle. If he doesn’t, well, that helps eliminating a name in consideration for 2022. Others to consider are the starting pitchers who will be shut down to inning limits sooner than later. The old St. Louis method of getting their SP’s feet wet in a bullpen role before they start the following year. 

I don't think it's about not having talent in the pipeline ready for auditions, I think it's not having healthy talent in the pipeline ready for auditions. They have a number of prospects who I think everyone inside and outside of the org thought were going to get some run this year. Basically all of them (outside Moran) have had injuries this year. I don't think there are any minor league arms who are going to be shutdown due to inning limits soon because they've all been hurt and aren't anywhere near their inning goals for the year. They may be shut down because they're injured, but not because they've overthrown this year.

Vincent over Moran feels weird and I wouldn't get it except for 2 reasons. 1. They just wanted to fill a pen spot with someone they knew basically would never throw and didn't want Moran sitting here never playing. 2. They likely feel very confident in what they have in Moran. They know if they're adding him to the 40 man or not this offseason. They have 6 guys on the 60 day IL right now so they have 46 guys on the 40 man roster. Adding Moran, or Miranda, or anyone not already on the 40 man means they have to DFA someone else to add them, then DFA another person when someone comes off the 60 day. They don't care about DFAing Vincent or Burrows or a number of other guys, but if they add all the guys they want to keep and are sitting at 46 guys then who are they DFAing? If they load 46 spots with guys they want next year they're losing 6 guys they want next year. They need at least 6 guys on the 40 man they're ready to lose. It's a numbers game.

[Vanimal46]

8 minutes ago, chpettit19 said:

I don't think it's about not having talent in the pipeline ready for auditions, I think it's not having healthy talent in the pipeline ready for auditions. They have a number of prospects who I think everyone inside and outside of the org thought were going to get some run this year. Basically all of them (outside Moran) have had injuries this year. I don't think there are any minor league arms who are going to be shutdown due to inning limits soon because they've all been hurt and aren't anywhere near their inning goals for the year. They may be shut down because they're injured, but not because they've overthrown this year.

Vincent over Moran feels weird and I wouldn't get it except for 2 reasons. 1. They just wanted to fill a pen spot with someone they knew basically would never throw and didn't want Moran sitting here never playing. 2. They likely feel very confident in what they have in Moran. They know if they're adding him to the 40 man or not this offseason. They have 6 guys on the 60 day IL right now so they have 46 guys on the 40 man roster. Adding Moran, or Miranda, or anyone not already on the 40 man means they have to DFA someone else to add them, then DFA another person when someone comes off the 60 day. They don't care about DFAing Vincent or Burrows or a number of other guys, but if they add all the guys they want to keep and are sitting at 46 guys then who are they DFAing? If they load 46 spots with guys they want next year they're losing 6 guys they want next year. They need at least 6 guys on the 40 man they're ready to lose. It's a numbers game.

That’s a fair response. I would hope that if they’re confident about adding Moran to the 40 man, or someone else like Winder for example, what better time than now to get it done and allow them to get the MLB jitters out of the way in a lost season?

Out of the 6 people on 60 day IL, who’s going to be back with the team? Kirilloff, Dobnak, and Colina are locks most likely. I’m not so sure about Smeltzer, Stashak, and Garlick. If the current crunch is a concern, they can always shut down Alcala, Farrell, Law, Rogers, or Big Mike for the year and free up a spot for Moran or Winder. 

I agree they don’t care about DFAing Vincent or Burrows or the other waiver wire picks they recently picked up. I think the thing that bothers me is spinning our wheels with these type of pitchers instead of gathering valuable info from prospects that could make an impact next year. 

[LA VIkes Fan]

I agree with you, Vanimal, but I think they are auditioning Garcia and Garza for next year's bullpen.  I think the FO sees them as pitchers who could impact next year's team so they are auditioning them now. It wouldn't surprise me if one or both started off next year in the Twins bullpen. Now that doesn't explain Nick VIncent instead of Hamilton or Moran. I think that has to be 40 man related with the idea being that Vincent is expendable when/if they have to start DFAing guys to get down to 40.  

[chpettit19]

32 minutes ago, Vanimal46 said:

That’s a fair response. I would hope that if they’re confident about adding Moran to the 40 man, or someone else like Winder for example, what better time than now to get it done and allow them to get the MLB jitters out of the way in a lost season?

Out of the 6 people on 60 day IL, who’s going to be back with the team? Kirilloff, Dobnak, and Colina are locks most likely. I’m not so sure about Smeltzer, Stashak, and Garlick. If the current crunch is a concern, they can always shut down Alcala, Farrell, Law, Rogers, or Big Mike for the year and free up a spot for Moran or Winder. 

I agree they don’t care about DFAing Vincent or Burrows or the other waiver wire picks they recently picked up. I think the thing that bothers me is spinning our wheels with these type of pitchers instead of gathering valuable info from prospects that could make an impact next year. 

I'd love to see Moran and Miranda getting their feet wet. But I can also understand them not forcing themselves into decisions before they have to. I don't know if it's when the Twins season ends or when the playoffs end, but the Twins will have to make 6 cuts immediately as the 60 day IL goes away during the offseason. But after that they have until the Rule 5 deadline to make final decisions on their 40 man. Why not give yourself that cushion? Neither Miranda or Moran (or any other prospect, really) is likely to play a big enough role on next year's team that they can't get the jitters out early. Moran will be a mid-relief option who doesn't see a high leverage situation all year probably. Miranda is likely a DH/Util-IF guy next year, not the 3 hole hitter. Winder, and all the other bigger name prospect arms, are going to get rotated through the back end of the rotation, but none of them are going to be relied upon to fill front end roles (or at least they shouldn't).

I would enjoy seeing Moran in the bigs, but I don't think it's crazy that the Twins aren't calling him, or Miranda, up right now. I think taking some swings at lottery tickets from outside the org has it's uses while you know your guy is still there and ready to be added to the 40-man after the season. 

[Major League Ready]

2 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

That’s a fair response. I would hope that if they’re confident about adding Moran to the 40 man, or someone else like Winder for example, what better time than now to get it done and allow them to get the MLB jitters out of the way in a lost season?

Out of the 6 people on 60 day IL, who’s going to be back with the team? Kirilloff, Dobnak, and Colina are locks most likely. I’m not so sure about Smeltzer, Stashak, and Garlick. If the current crunch is a concern, they can always shut down Alcala, Farrell, Law, Rogers, or Big Mike for the year and free up a spot for Moran or Winder. 

I agree they don’t care about DFAing Vincent or Burrows or the other waiver wire picks they recently picked up. I think the thing that bothers me is spinning our wheels with these type of pitchers instead of gathering valuable info from prospects that could make an impact next year. 

I don't understand Vincent but Garcia & maybe Garza seem to have just as much potential as Moran.  So, do I want three guys to audition at some point (Moran / Garcia & Garza) or just Moran?  I think Burrows was a swing and a miss but it's not as if it were a big sacrifice to give him 9 and 1/3 innings in a lost season.  Now they tinker with him at AAA for six weeks and see if they want to keep him for next year.   

[Otto von Ballpark]

2 hours ago, Vanimal46 said:

That’s a fair response. I would hope that if they’re confident about adding Moran to the 40 man, or someone else like Winder for example, what better time than now to get it done and allow them to get the MLB jitters out of the way in a lost season?

Winder went on the AAA injured list after just 4 AAA starts -- hasn't appeared in a game since July 21st.

That's generally the issue with most of our options right now. Moran is pretty much the only healthy guy that deserves a call-up. And there's still 7 weeks left in the season to do it.